Rx400h Or Rx350 - Which Is Better

[atlpug]

Hi - I'll shortly be purchasing either an RX400h or RX350. I'm really torn between the two in terms of will I see a big enough benefit to justify the additional expenditure for the hybrid. Briefly, my driving habits are 85 - 90% city, weeks can pass without me getting on the highway. Most of my city driving is within a 10 mile radius, the majority of my trips are short. In theory, it seems like the hybrid would be the better choice. In practice, I'm not convinced the extra cost is justified. I've been driving an Expedition for just over 4 years now (I know that's terrible for gas, environment, etc. and now I'm willing to try to atone for my sins), so even the 350 I think will give me a nice difference in mileage while being better for the environment as well. Any thoughts/advice/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Also, these 2 cars are my only choices - there's no other hybrid I like, and the 350 from what I've researched gets the best mileage of a midsize SUV. So it's one or the other! Many thanks, :)

[NeoN]

Hi - I'll shortly be purchasing either an RX400h or RX350. I'm really torn between the two in terms of will I see a big enough benefit to justify the additional expenditure for the hybrid. Briefly, my driving habits are 85 - 90% city, weeks can pass without me getting on the highway. Most of my city driving is within a 10 mile radius, the majority of my trips are short. In theory, it seems like the hybrid would be the better choice. In practice, I'm not convinced the extra cost is justified. I've been driving an Expedition for just over 4 years now (I know that's terrible for gas, environment, etc. and now I'm willing to try to atone for my sins), so even the 350 I think will give me a nice difference in mileage while being better for the environment as well. Any thoughts/advice/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Also, these 2 cars are my only choices - there's no other hybrid I like, and the 350 from what I've researched gets the best mileage of a midsize SUV. So it's one or the other! Many thanks, :)

if 90% of your driving is city you are MUCH better off with the hybrid, but being that your trips are a 10 mile radius you'd be a perfect candidate for the 400h as it does significantly better in the city versus the 350 (26 vs 16)

[richard4u]

i drive 90% in the city - getting 28 mpg - my last trip 30 miles round trip to a suburb on nice flat terrain i got 36.7 mpg this is with my 2007 RX400h

the main reason for me buying the hybrid was it's trade in value - with the gas crunch this is a highly desired used car the 350 is a great car but it is

not as good as the 400h - for me the money is not really such a big concideration as i have a lot of disposable income - apples to apples the 400h is

the way to go richard

[mrc88dal]

If you take the better gas mileage out of the equation, I believe the 400h is still the way to go. The CVT transmission is exceptionally smooth and the performance(torque and acceleration) easily blows away the 350. As mentioned above, re-sale value on the hybrid is better and will remain so. I'd aggressively solicit multiple dealers and try to get the best possible deal on a new 400h. You won't regret it! Happy Shopping.

[RX400h]

I agree with the others - city mileage is where the RX400h shines. I sent an email to Consumer Reports, recently, explaining that their "analysis" of payback should include a note about driving environment. People who live in areas where high traffic conditions are common can realize payback far faster than those who have a leisurely, uncrowded commute. Here in San Diego, we see jammed highways every afternoon. The RX350, under similar conditions will average 16 MPG, whereas the 400h's mileage approaches 30.

Appreciation is another factor - most certainly in favor of the 400h.

dave

[vinovelo]

While I agree with most of what is said here please be aware that in situations where you have a short daily commute for example that the 400h may never live up to expectations mileage wise. If you make a lot of short trips with a cold engine you may see low mileage. Perhaps as low as 21 from what some have said. The engine efficiency when getting up to temperature is low. Once up to temperature in city traffic it CAN do fairly well. Especially when compared to it's gas only counterpart, the RX350. For what is worth ANY vehicle will get horrible mileage with short cold trips.

My personal experience with short 8-10 mile city trips is that I get about 24-26 IF I am very careful. On longer mixed driving of about 70% highway and 30% city I get about 28. This is with pulling every trick in the book to maximize the use of the electric motor usage. If I have fun and just drive the 400h with disregard to mileage it drops to about 22 - 24.

THE one time I got very high mileage was during an 80 mile trip during rush hour jams where 90% of it was in very sluggish slow rolling traffic. I managed to get 33.1 mpg. I was quite pleased but that was a somewhat unusual situation. That scenario seems to maximize the use of the electric motors.

All that said my opinion is that the 400h gets decent mileage but where it really shines is the CVT tranny in traffic. No more do you feel the constant shifting through the bottom three gears only a smooth quiet movement. It has a very calming effect in traffic jams where you do not feel the vehicle constantly shifting and it's running on battery mostly.

I believe the difference in the cost from the RX350 to RX400h is worth it especially if you plan to keep it for many years.

/Steve

[s10]

Hi - I'll shortly be purchasing either an RX400h or RX350. I'm really torn between the two in terms of will I see a big enough benefit to justify the additional expenditure for the hybrid. Briefly, my driving habits are 85 - 90% city, weeks can pass without me getting on the highway. Most of my city driving is within a 10 mile radius, the majority of my trips are short. In theory, it seems like the hybrid would be the better choice. In practice, I'm not convinced the extra cost is justified. I've been driving an Expedition for just over 4 years now (I know that's terrible for gas, environment, etc. and now I'm willing to try to atone for my sins), so even the 350 I think will give me a nice difference in mileage while being better for the environment as well. Any thoughts/advice/suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Also, these 2 cars are my only choices - there's no other hybrid I like, and the 350 from what I've researched gets the best mileage of a midsize SUV. So it's one or the other! Many thanks, :)

In any case the hybrid is the better buy.... the extra money you invest in it will come back at the end when you sell it... it depreciates less (and that difference will grow when the new model will come out!)

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

While I agree with most of what is said here please be aware that in situations where you have a short daily commute for example that the 400h may never live up to expectations mileage wise. If you make a lot of short trips with a cold engine you may see low mileage. Perhaps as low as 21 from what some have said. The engine efficiency when getting up to temperature is low.

. . . . . . . . snip

/Steve

Agreed. The 1st 7 - 9 miles are the worst. Then again, as you said above, the same poor startup mpg is true for straight fuel burners. The sollution for us was installing the electric block heater (ebh). Not only does it benefit in the cold northern winters, using it in the summer keeps those first few miles nice and high. You plug the ebh into a timer that runs for 90 minutes prior to departing and you're good to go, mpg wise. I know it's not a perfect sollution if you don't have 110v access where you park, but for the other 80%-90% of Toyota/Lexus hybrid owners, it helps.

[Gryphon]

When I have driven the RX350 as a loaner I thought that the transmission was surprisingly harsh, not just in comparison to my RX400h but even to other comparable vehicles.

Tom

[atlpug]

Thanks everyone for the advice/input. Very helpful in making my decision which was...the 400h. Took delivery last night and love it - just doing my daily rounds this morning I'm seeing an avg. of 25 mpg - amazing considering that coming from the Ford Expedition I was averaging 8 - 9 mpg on the same roads and conditions. I can't believe I've tripled my mpg - mindboggling!

This is a great forum - my husband and I were able to read what others have already experienced with their 400h's and that's been very helpful - great resource. :)

[NeoN]

Thanks everyone for the advice/input. Very helpful in making my decision which was...the 400h. Took delivery last night and love it - just doing my daily rounds this morning I'm seeing an avg. of 25 mpg - amazing considering that coming from the Ford Expedition I was averaging 8 - 9 mpg on the same roads and conditions. I can't believe I've tripled my mpg - mindboggling!

This is a great forum - my husband and I were able to read what others have already experienced with their 400h's and that's been very helpful - great resource. :)

the hybrid tripled your mpg? wow! thats quite a feat

[atlpug]

it does seem to good to be true, and probably isn't entirely accurate if you were to do more complicated math to determine the mpg. But in my simplified way of looking at it, when i sold my expedition last weekend, the avg mpg on the display was 8.5. (for the type of driving i do, mainly city with stop and go and sitting at traffic lights, i could be at a stop light and watch my mileage literally tick downward while waiting on a green light.) so on the surface my avg mpg has tripled from 8 to 25 - i agree i'm blown away by it, especially since i just got the car last night. i did reset the avg mpg through the info screen after i left the dealership, then again after my husband drove it (he drove it like it was his bmw :chairshot: ) because i wanted to see the calculation reflecting my driving style (light foot and coasting). maybe that skewed the avg. calculation, i don't know, but i'm feeling good thinking in my mind that i've tripled my mpg.

[s10]

it does seem to good to be true, and probably isn't entirely accurate if you were to do more complicated math to determine the mpg. But in my simplified way of looking at it, when i sold my expedition last weekend, the avg mpg on the display was 8.5. (for the type of driving i do, mainly city with stop and go and sitting at traffic lights, i could be at a stop light and watch my mileage literally tick downward while waiting on a green light.) so on the surface my avg mpg has tripled from 8 to 25 - i agree i'm blown away by it, especially since i just got the car last night. i did reset the avg mpg through the info screen after i left the dealership, then again after my husband drove it (he drove it like it was his bmw :chairshot: ) because i wanted to see the calculation reflecting my driving style (light foot and coasting). maybe that skewed the avg. calculation, i don't know, but i'm feeling good thinking in my mind that i've tripled my mpg.

congratulations on your purchase. Enjoy the RX400H!

[mrc88dal]

then again after my husband drove it (he drove it like it was his bmw :chairshot: )

Congrats! It's awfully tempting to really drive it hard. I splurge on occasion and do all the things you're not supposed to(jack rabbit starts etc.) and then reset the mileage computer and go back to fuel savings mode. The good news is that even when you do drive it hard, you'll likely still get 20-22mpg. Far better than the 8-9mpg on your Expedition. I doubt we'll consider any other vehicle when we replace our 400h in 2-3 years.

[RX400h]

Thanks everyone for the advice/input. Very helpful in making my decision which was...the 400h. Took delivery last night and love it - just doing my daily rounds this morning I'm seeing an avg. of 25 mpg - amazing considering that coming from the Ford Expedition I was averaging 8 - 9 mpg on the same roads and conditions. I can't believe I've tripled my mpg - mindboggling!

This is a great forum - my husband and I were able to read what others have already experienced with their 400h's and that's been very helpful - great resource. :)

Congratulations! We've had our RX400h since they started rolling into San Diego, way back in 2005 and we have not had one problem. That is certainly a record for us and a testament to the amazing reliability of Lexus vehicles.

Enjoy!

[ilovelexus2007]

Congrats on your new vehicle! You probably don't need the advise anymore on which one to choose, but I have had a chance to drive the RX350 again today as a loaner (I test drove them before I purchased my 400h, but at that time, I really had no knowledge about 400h, so it was hard to compare). Anyway, it was nowhere compared to my RX400h. The transmission was horrible when accelerate (I thought even ES350 was better), it definitely has less power, the noises were more pronounced at low speed, and most noticeably was the 300lbs difference between 350 and 400h, I can feel RX350 was a lot lighter and less stable in high speed.

I'm so glad I bought my 400h, I think it was a better choice than RX350 because even with the new redesigned RX350 coming out next year, I still think the hybrids would still hold its value well, stand out, and not becoming obselete like the current RX350 because there are only a handful of RX400h out there.

[SW03ES]

then again after my husband drove it (he drove it like it was his bmw :chairshot: ) because i wanted to see the calculation reflecting my driving style (light foot and coasting). maybe that skewed the avg. calculation, i don't know, but i'm feeling good thinking in my mind that i've tripled my mpg.

LOL, I hear this ALL the time in one hybrid families including mine. The hybrid driver is careful to maximise their MPG, and then the non-hybrid driver drives it like a bat out of hell and ruins the mileage.

When I drive my wife's Prius I know if I bring it back with LESS MPG than she left it with...I'm gonna get it.

[Jim Clark]

Mileage is not enough justification for a 400 over a 350. The payback is too long for the average driver. If you drive a HUGE number of miles per year, you might get a payback.

We bought ours so the wife could use the HOV lanes in her commute. That was worth the extra $$$'s.

[RX400h]

It's not just distance traveled; it's the type of driving environment that contributes heavily to whether an RX400h can be justified. I'd bet that a typical big city commuter who encounters traffic bottlenecks on a daily basis would need to accumulate only 8000-10000 miles per year before seeing payback within just a few years. We're talking 27-30 MPG for the 400 vs 15-17 for the 350. Resale values for the 400h are also much better, so overall ownership costs can be quite a bit lower.

[Jim Clark]

Let's look at the numbers.

At 15,000 miles per year and 17 mpg, the 350 will use 882 gallons. The 400h at 27 mpg will use 556 gallons. The 326 gallon difference at $3.13 per gallon (premium in this area right now) is $1020 per year.

A new 400h (still listed as a 2008 model) is $50,715 typically equipped. A new 350 (2009 model) is $46,065 similarly equipped. The $4,650 difference will take 4.5 years to recover.

The 2009 400h will probably have at least a modest price increase. The analysis also does not include the possible earnings on the $4,650. It also does not include discounts from retail, you can probably get more off a new 350 than a new 400h.

Used 2007 models rated as "clean retail" on NADA are $39,900 for the 400 and $33,400 for the 350, a difference of $6,500.

If we assume a $1,000 price increase for the 2009 400h (2% increase), that brings the price difference for new ones to $5,650. That brings the used price differential to $850 in favor of the 400h. Subtracting the $850 from the assumed $5,650 (new price differential), we end up with $4,800. It will take 4.7 years to recover. Again, no earnings on the differential included.

One other factor that would be important to our friends in the great white north or those that like to go off-road is the AWD systems. The 400h AWD system is a joke compared to the likes of Jeeps or the absolute best Audi Quattros. I suspect the 350 uses a traditional differential to distribute power to the four wheels. I've read horror stories of people trying to make use of the 400h AWD on ice or in heavy snow. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and the system basically shut down.

Now, all that said, would we choose he 400h over the 350 again? Absolutely.

Again, the primary reason for choosing the hybrid was so the wife could use the HOV lanes in her daily commute, the value of that in the DC area is HUGE. We rarely need AWD capabilities (not much snow and never go off-road). The torquey electric motors and CVT are great. Even IF the wife didn't get to use the HOV, after having the 400h for a year now, we'd choose it over the 350 again.

The 5 year payback from gas savings is "reasonable". The bottom line is if you need "real" AWD, the scales tip in favor of the 350. If not, the 400h is the choice. One more thing is that us 400h owners are being somewhat kindlier to the environment.

[RX400h]

Well, let's look at the "big city" version:

10,000 annual miles using premium gas at $3.40/gallon (here in CA)

The RX400h, seeing heavy traffic on a daily basis, gets 30 mpg, whereas the 350 manages only 15 MPG

The RX400h saves $1133 per year for a total payback period of only 4.1 years.

Our RX is 3.5 years old and looks and runs like a new vehicle, so if this is true of others' 400hs, keeping one that long is certainly not painful at all. Obviously, the higher the population (and resulting traffic) density, the higher the chances that payback will be within the average buyer's length of ownership.

[mrc88dal]

One other factor that would be important to our friends in the great white north or those that like to go off-road is the AWD systems. The 400h AWD system is a joke compared to the likes of Jeeps or the absolute best Audi Quattros. I suspect the 350 uses a traditional differential to distribute power to the four wheels. I've read horror stories of people trying to make use of the 400h AWD on ice or in heavy snow. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and the system basically shut down.

Living in the great white north and having just weathered the 2nd snowiest winter recorded in NH with an RX400h, I can tell you that the 400h is quite capable. To call it a "joke" without having any experience with it in true winter conditions is misleading at best and is reminiscent of WWest's opines of yore. My previous SUV, a Toyota Sequoia, was extremely capable and I was apprehensive to purchase the 400h but decided to take the risk. After two winters, I've not been disappointed. I've driven it in 12" of snow with no difficulties and have never seen the "Christmas Tree Effect" you imply is common nor can I relay any "horror stories". As with any vehicle driven in winter conditions, dedicated snow tires and driver technique goes a long way. Is the RX as good as my Sequoia, no. But can it be driven safely and effectively in those same winter conditions, yes. I think this forum works best when we all avoid innuendo and stick to our own actual experiences with the car.

[Jim Clark]

One other factor that would be important to our friends in the great white north or those that like to go off-road is the AWD systems. The 400h AWD system is a joke compared to the likes of Jeeps or the absolute best Audi Quattros. I suspect the 350 uses a traditional differential to distribute power to the four wheels. I've read horror stories of people trying to make use of the 400h AWD on ice or in heavy snow. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and the system basically shut down.

Living in the great white north and having just weathered the 2nd snowiest winter recorded in NH with an RX400h, I can tell you that the 400h is quite capable. To call it a "joke" without having any experience with it in true winter conditions is misleading at best and is reminiscent of WWest's opines of yore. My previous SUV, a Toyota Sequoia, was extremely capable and I was apprehensive to purchase the 400h but decided to take the risk. After two winters, I've not been disappointed. I've driven it in 12" of snow with no difficulties and have never seen the "Christmas Tree Effect" you imply is common nor can I relay any "horror stories". As with any vehicle driven in winter conditions, dedicated snow tires and driver technique goes a long way. Is the RX as good as my Sequoia, no. But can it be driven safely and effectively in those same winter conditions, yes. I think this forum works best when we all avoid innuendo and stick to our own actual experiences with the car.

I believe it says in the manual that the 400h is NOT to be taken off-road as it could damage the hybrid drive system.

I'm thinking your dedicated winter tires and driver technique had more to do with your good experience than the 400h AWD system.

I grew up in CT and went to VT nearly every weekend to ski. I managed just fine in my RWD Mustang because I knew how to drive in the slop. I have also had two Saab FWD's that would go through nearly anything. But nothing can compare to my '94 Jeep Grand Cherokee (still have it for sloppy days when I don't drive my 330Cic) or the three Audi wagons I've owned. The Jeep will climb trees in low range.

Maybe "joke" was a bit strong, but the 400h AWD system can not be compared to "true" AWD systems from the likes of Audi, Jeep, Range Rover, etc.

But that rear electric motor does add some kick when you punch it, that's fun.....

[mrc88dal]

I believe it says in the manual that the 400h is NOT to be taken off-road as it could damage the hybrid drive system.

I'm thinking your dedicated winter tires and driver technique had more to do with your good experience than the 400h AWD system.

First, I never suggested that the 400h is an off-road vehicle. It's not and my mention of my Sequoia ownership and experience with that SUV were meant to convey that I realize that the 400h is not as competent as certain dedicated 4WD or AWD vehicles. With that said, I can attest to the 400h's performance in heavy snow as can other members of this forum. Snow tires and driver technique, as discussed ad nauseum here, are critical when you live in snowy areas. If you don't change your tires, you'll likely complain about the AWD system or end up "off-road" as many of our MA and CT visitors do. My comments are based less on my "good experience" and more on my impressions of the 400h's capability when properly equipped and driven. My concern here, as with prior "winter" related posts, is the newcomer to this forum who is addressing this issue as I did several years ago. I want to make sure they hear accurately from people who have actually driven the 400h in winter conditions. Fortunately, when I first accessed this forum over two years ago, there were several owners in "snowy" states who alleviated my concerns about trading my Sequoia for a 400h. I haven't been disappointed. Like you, I love the car!!

[atlpug]

Thanks to everyone for all the analysis and payback calculations - wow! You guys are thorough! Guess I should've mentioned in my original post that I live in Atlanta - therefore rarely any snow or ice to deal with. I had wanted to purchase an AWD 400h, but evidently they are as difficult to find in the southeast as snow. So I have the FWD and am very happy with it. When I decided to go with the 400h, I knew I might not reach a breakeven/payback point while I have the car. But I'm ok with that - in my thought process, I realized that there are other benefits to the hybrid for me personally, maybe not so tangible as monetary payback, but important nonetheless. It's a great feeling to know that by choosing this car I've reduced my environmental impact somewhat, which I hope will make a difference in my daughter's future and beyond. My husband is now considering a hybrid for his next car - so I've made a choice that has others re-evaluating their choices. And maybe by purchasing a hybrid I'm sending a message to our country's leaders that I'm willing and ready to embrace alternative fuel choices. None of this is meant to be lofty - just saying that the process of moving to a hybrid for me started out as a way to save money on gas, but became something deeper than that. And to top it all off, I got a great car with excellent safety features, great performance, and enough cargo space that I'm not missing my cavernous Expedition!