Engine Failure At 148k...lexus Says Sorry, But It's Normal.

[Brett Knickerbocker]

:cries: I just had my worst Lexus ownership experience with my 99RX300 AWD. I had engine failure (low compression on 2 cylinders) at 148k miles. This car was serviced regularly and rigorously by dealers, oil changed within recommended intervals. Saw oil usage at around 135k miles and asked dealer to check compression during the last visit. They tried to talk me out of it since they'd never seen a problem that warranted it, especially with my car. 2 cylinders were low (~90lbs). Hoped it was valve stems/seats....something more typical of wear and tear. But, ...had 2 cylinders that had mirrored over and reduced compression. Apparently the rings fused to the pistons and cross hatch on cylinder walls was gone. Used premium oils, including Mobile 1 for the last 50k. Engine seemed to have plenty of power but was idling rough and appeared to be using oil...which was unusual. During the diagnosis we found the Idle Air pump was going bad and it was probably reason for rough idle. Ended up replacing short block (cheaper than fixing) and rebuilding head assys since it was going to cost almost $3k just to put it back together as-is. Not being ready to drop $50k without notice for a new car and needing to have reliable/safe transportation for work, I felt as if I were hostage to the situation and had to make the repairs (over $10k list for the short block, idle air pump, valve covers, belts, rebuild heads, replace all 4 rotors...which were planned, and labor for all).

This was a HUGE disappointment since I only had 148k miles...mostly highway....and had pampered this thing since day 1 and have been the only driver. Lexus was not interested in investigating since no signs of sludge. They said it just wore out...which was also shocking. A very poor explanation for an engine so rigorously maintained......especially a Toyota engine. Good news was that Ann Arbor Lexus really worked with me to heavily discount the parts and labor (I think they were embarrased over this failure quite honestly) and I did the engine, tranny fluid service, and new rotors/pads all around. Car is now under warranty again for 12mo/12k miles. A huge disappointment for me that this happened. Now I wonder if Lexus is really "all that" since I've never had any other car with this issue no matter how many miles it had...even an old K-Car with a gazillion miles on it.

The biggest disappointment in this whole thing was Lexus had no interest in any kind of detailed follow-up to understand what caused this problem. Toyota and Honda are considered to have core competencies in engine design and longevity. Dying of old age at 148k miles on a Toyota engine of that calibre is ridiculous.....although Lexus wouldn't agree, they just said "sorry, but we warranted it for the first 60k". My mechanic at the dealer was the one that compelled me to follow-up with Lexus since the engine was so clean and was clearly maintained very well. He was miffed as to why it failed. I know every company has to manage its costs for warranty/customer claims and am not shocked that they didn't want to put any effort into it......but then again, they're supposed to be different, No? Just another car company in this case. However, Ann Arbor Lexus gets a gold medal for the way they helped, gave me a huge discount, and a loaner the whole time.

If you have experienced this problem or know of someone who has, please reply. Lexus claims that they have systems to track this and if it were a common problem, they might be inclined to assist in some way. Frankly, I think that since this appears to be a very unusual thing they should be more interested in understanding. My logic with Lexus is that it's unreasonable for this engine to fail like this with it's maintenance history. When they asked me how many miles should they stop at, I asked why they replaced so many short blocks on ES300s that had 50k+ miles on them? What life expectency goal were they trying to reach....the cars probably would have made it past the "warranty" limit. Unfortunately, it appears that Lexus is so "uninterested" that this doesn't even qualify to have the district/zone rep look at the short block and/or talk with the service tech that diagnosed this issue but is confused as to why it happened. My likelihood of buying another new Lexus is practically zero. The total cost of ownership with this last huge repair is now way off base.

[lenore]

:cries: I just had my worst Lexus ownership experience with my 99RX300 AWD. I had engine failure (low compression on 2 cylinders) at 148k miles. This car was serviced regularly and rigorously by dealers, oil changed within recommended intervals. Saw oil usage at around 135k miles and asked dealer to check compression during the last visit. They tried to talk me out of it since they'd never seen a problem that warranted it, especially with my car. 2 cylinders were low (~90lbs). Hoped it was valve stems/seats....something more typical of wear and tear. But, ...had 2 cylinders that had mirrored over and reduced compression. Apparently the rings fused to the pistons and cross hatch on cylinder walls was gone. Used premium oils, including Mobile 1 for the last 50k. Engine seemed to have plenty of power but was idling rough and appeared to be using oil...which was unusual. During the diagnosis we found the Idle Air pump was going bad and it was probably reason for rough idle. Ended up replacing short block (cheaper than fixing) and rebuilding head assys since it was going to cost almost $3k just to put it back together as-is. Not being ready to drop $50k without notice for a new car and needing to have reliable/safe transportation for work, I felt as if I were hostage to the situation and had to make the repairs (over $10k list for the short block, idle air pump, valve covers, belts, rebuild heads, replace all 4 rotors...which were planned, and labor for all).

This was a HUGE disappointment since I only had 148k miles...mostly highway....and had pampered this thing since day 1 and have been the only driver. Lexus was not interested in investigating since no signs of sludge. They said it just wore out...which was also shocking. A very poor explanation for an engine so rigorously maintained......especially a Toyota engine. Good news was that Ann Arbor Lexus really worked with me to heavily discount the parts and labor (I think they were embarrased over this failure quite honestly) and I did the engine, tranny fluid service, and new rotors/pads all around. Car is now under warranty again for 12mo/12k miles. A huge disappointment for me that this happened. Now I wonder if Lexus is really "all that" since I've never had any other car with this issue no matter how many miles it had...even an old K-Car with a gazillion miles on it.

The biggest disappointment in this whole thing was Lexus had no interest in any kind of detailed follow-up to understand what caused this problem. Toyota and Honda are considered to have core competencies in engine design and longevity. Dying of old age at 148k miles on a Toyota engine of that calibre is ridiculous.....although Lexus wouldn't agree, they just said "sorry, but we warranted it for the first 60k". My mechanic at the dealer was the one that compelled me to follow-up with Lexus since the engine was so clean and was clearly maintained very well. He was miffed as to why it failed. I know every company has to manage its costs for warranty/customer claims and am not shocked that they didn't want to put any effort into it......but then again, they're supposed to be different, No? Just another car company in this case. However, Ann Arbor Lexus gets a gold medal for the way they helped, gave me a huge discount, and a loaner the whole time.

If you have experienced this problem or know of someone who has, please reply. Lexus claims that they have systems to track this and if it were a common problem, they might be inclined to assist in some way. Frankly, I think that since this appears to be a very unusual thing they should be more interested in understanding. My logic with Lexus is that it's unreasonable for this engine to fail like this with it's maintenance history. When they asked me how many miles should they stop at, I asked why they replaced so many short blocks on ES300s that had 50k+ miles on them? What life expectency goal were they trying to reach....the cars probably would have made it past the "warranty" limit. Unfortunately, it appears that Lexus is so "uninterested" that this doesn't even qualify to have the district/zone rep look at the short block and/or talk with the service tech that diagnosed this issue but is confused as to why it happened. My likelihood of buying another new Lexus is practically zero. The total cost of ownership with this last huge repair is now way off base.

Sorry for your failure, Yes it shouldnt have happened if the car was maintaned, I felt the same way with my transmission failure at 101k miles.... Good luck

[RX in NC]

There's absolutely no way I would have sunk eight grand into a dying 1999 RX300 with all the known failures that this vehicle can suffer from. Sure hope you can drive it for many more years to come because as you know, your total cost of ownership is now off the freakin' charts and will never recover to any sense of normalcy....

Change that transmission fluid at least every 30,000 miles....

[SW03ES]

Wow...I've never heard of such a failure on a Lexus vehicle not attributed to sludge...

What did you wind up paying for the replacement?

[tmastres]

Just out of curiosity , what would cause the rings to fuse to the pistons? I'm not entirely sure this wasn't somehow sludge or oil related.

[blk_on_blk]

That is very strange, especially for a naturally aspirated engine runnning synthetic oil. I've seen rings bind to pistons based on gunk/sludge issues and heat problems, but not on a clean, mild engine like the 1MZFE.

Were you able to see the parts? Get any pictures? Perhaps there is a visual indicator of what went wrong.

So sorry to hear about the failure... and so hard to pinpoint what could be the cause of failure on a 'higher' mileage vehicle like that. We've got 164K on our ES300, which uses the same engine, and it's running strong. What happened to your engine is definitely not a common failure, and it's a weak statement for Lexus to say it just 'wore out'.

[SW03ES]

I don't consider 145k to be high mileage at all. I had a Ford Explorer until it had 170k, had a lot of problems but the engine was fine. My ES has 90k, my dad's 98 LS400 had 160k when he traded it.

If properly maintained 140k is not high mileage for ANY modern engine, let alone one in a Toyota or Lexus.

I'd stll like to know what you paid, I hope they discounted it HEAVILY. In my experience the dealer can get a lot of stuff covered if they're on your side.

[Brett Knickerbocker]

I don't consider 145k to be high mileage at all. I had a Ford Explorer until it had 170k, had a lot of problems but the engine was fine. My ES has 90k, my dad's 98 LS400 had 160k when he traded it.

If properly maintained 140k is not high mileage for ANY modern engine, let alone one in a Toyota or Lexus.

I'd stll like to know what you paid, I hope they discounted it HEAVILY. In my experience the dealer can get a lot of stuff covered if they're on your side.

The whole repair bill was $8k flat for a new short block, idle air assy, rebuilding the heads, new valve covers, all new belts, coolant, fluids, 4 new Rotors and Pads (needed anyway), misc other items, minor exhaust repairs, and a transmission service. The transmission shows no signs of problems and has been maintained rigorously. In essence, the short block was discounted to about $2800 and labor for all of this was about 24 hours or $2400. The engine is under a 12/12 warranty now and runs and drives like new. I have no doubt that the car will run for years to come (body and interior in pemium shape). Except for potential of transmission issues, the car likely has another 150k left on it now.

[djspawn00]

I don't consider 145k to be high mileage at all. I had a Ford Explorer until it had 170k, had a lot of problems but the engine was fine. My ES has 90k, my dad's 98 LS400 had 160k when he traded it.

If properly maintained 140k is not high mileage for ANY modern engine, let alone one in a Toyota or Lexus.

I'd stll like to know what you paid, I hope they discounted it HEAVILY. In my experience the dealer can get a lot of stuff covered if they're on your side.

The whole repair bill was $8k flat for a new short block, idle air assy, rebuilding the heads, new valve covers, all new belts, coolant, fluids, 4 new Rotors and Pads (needed anyway), misc other items, minor exhaust repairs, and a transmission service. The transmission shows no signs of problems and has been maintained rigorously. In essence, the short block was discounted to about $2800 and labor for all of this was about 24 hours or $2400. The engine is under a 12/12 warranty now and runs and drives like new. I have no doubt that the car will run for years to come (body and interior in pemium shape). Except for potential of transmission issues, the car likely has another 150k left on it now.

Good lord thats a lot of money! I would've gotten the work done at an indy and used the other 4k to buy a big bag of... i mean uhhh, nevermind i forgot what i was saying.

[SW03ES]

Holy hell, I'd have left the thing on their parking lot and bought something else.

[SeaDuck79]

Sorry about your loss, but you must remember that all things wear out at some point. For every engine that goes 500k, there's one that craps out at 50k, with the average somewhere in the middle. You may have had that 50k one, and your good maintenance extended its life.

As much as we have come to expect it in this day and age, even things made by the best people using the best manufacturing methods and materials will break/wear out at some point, and it isn't always SOMEone's fault. I hope your solution lasts for a long time, and repays your investment.

[SW03ES]

Well, I think in this day and age when these cars are as heralded as being reliable and well made as they are, saying the engine simply "wore out" at 148k is completely inexcusable.

If this engine wore out a 148k, and another one at 500k with the same maintenance I would say absolutely someone messed up with this one.

[RX_4_surfin]

While it's not what we all hope and expect to get out of an engine these days, 148k still is not all that bad. But for what it's worth, Toyota is still having some problems with engines. They had issues with the V8's in the 03 4Runners, and I've heard reports of problems in the latest Tundra V8's also.

I think that Toyota is the best car producer in the world now. It just goes to show that even the best can still have problems.

That is definitely a bummer that it happened, but I have to side with Lexus--These things do happen. Toyota earned their reputation by minimizing these incident's, not eliminating them.

You may have put $8 grand into it, but you could now have an engine that will go for 300K more miles. Keep on top of the maintenance, give it some new suspension and you might be driving that car for another decade or 15 years.

I would certainly think though, that they could give a lifetime engine warranty or something. I would bet that would increase sales exponentially and that revenue would far outweigh the cost of the few engine replacements that would be necessary.

[SW03ES]

I completely disagree. Lexus should have at least helped him out with that repair. A properly maintained engine should not "wear out" at only 148k miles on a car as well engineered as a Lexus.

[bluestu]

Holy crap!!! Your transmission outlasted your engine. How could that have happened??? Yeah, your engine should have held up much longer than 150kmi.. I would be *BLEEP*ed!!! Maybe someone sabotaged your engine accidentally or on purpose. It's been known to happen. Something is a fowl if you maintained it that well. I would have demanded that Lexus give you a trade-in on a newer model at a substantial discount. That would have been the only fair thing to do.

[SeaDuck79]

Sorry, but the term "Mean Time Between Failure" is conspicuously missing from the vocabulary of many here. Every manufactured part of any device has one, and it represents the AVERAGE time that part can be expected to last. Average means that some will last longer and some shorter than that average. Unless you can show some negligence or REAL reason to blame Lexus, how exactly should they be on the hook for a part failing when it was supposed to, especially when it lasted for TWICE as long as it was warranteed to last?

We don't live in a perfect world, people. Sometimes you get the good part, sometimes you get the bad one. Grow up and stop blaming people for not always getting the good one.

[lenore]

Sorry, but the term "Mean Time Between Failure" is conspicuously missing from the vocabulary of many here. Every manufactured part of any device has one, and it represents the AVERAGE time that part can be expected to last. Average means that some will last longer and some shorter than that average. Unless you can show some negligence or REAL reason to blame Lexus, how exactly should they be on the hook for a part failing when it was supposed to, especially when it lasted for TWICE as long as it was warranteed to last?

We don't live in a perfect world, people. Sometimes you get the good part, sometimes you get the bad one. Grow up and stop blaming people for not always getting the good one.

Oh man where is Monarch when you need him, He would be crying to know the beloved Lexus failed with proper maintenance. I agree 148k on this engine is crap....If it had sludge or lost all of its oil or coolent, maybe...I know he didnt use Toyota Motor oil and toyota this or that... compensation would have been the proper thing...

[02es3004sale]

Dude I feel for you. That sounds like bad dealer/corporate relations to me. I work at nissan. I've been a certified nissan tech for a while and I try my hardest every day to give people what they need Info/parts/and Labor-wise.... I've seen things go that way though and sometimes corp. will want to "work their way around" situations like that instead of getting past them and most of the time they are so caught up (the individual that you're dealing with directly) in the embarrassment of the situation, especially when it's something to the extreme like in our case, that they loose sight of the actual buisness standpoint of the whole thing. I worked for one dealer ship for a while recently, before moving, and we did a lot of GRT repairs. If someone had a service record like that, and had been in for their 15k,30k,60k,and100k...etc services and had the majority of their oil changes with us then we would pretty much pick up slack for unexplainable situations....which is the way things should be. So even though I'm a dealer mechanic, Heck dude I don't blame you. I'd be dissappointed too.... because they AREN'T supposed to be just another car company...... Hope best for you and sorry you got the stick from my feild of work.

[SW03ES]

We don't live in a perfect world, people. Sometimes you get the good part, sometimes you get the bad one. Grow up and stop blaming people for not always getting the good one.

Now, those of you who know me know that I would be the first person to take this line of thinking in a situation like this, I almost always do.

However, in this situation I think that Lexus should have, and would have had he been a little firmer, at least helped him with the cost of this repair seeing how young the engine was and how well he had maintained it (providing that were true).

The issue is having a dealer that is on your side. MY dealer has replaced many things for me at no cost out of warranty because as they put it "You take care of your car, we're going to make sure Lexus takes care of you". If this happened to me, there is no doubt in my mind that my dealer would have gotten Lexus to help with the bill.

[wgwollet]

I disagree with Toyota being the best cars now. I think Honda builds the best cars for the money.

I have owned many US, Toyota and Honda and Honda overall has cost me the least and this is supported by many auto heads.

My Lexus RX300 2001 is a OK car but I too am disappointed, I am a gear head and bought the RX for the wife. It now has 100k and no major problems. I do all my own maintenance and service, but I think the transmisson is weak and we have a lifter problem I must address. For $40k, holy crap these cars should walk on water. I have a 2001 Honda Civic that has cost me nothing and runs circle around this RX and only cost me $13k with 120k miles.

Now its not the same ride,.......but the cost of ownership from a to b is about 1/5 the Lexus costs........

never again.......I'll spend the money on real estate first

[tmastres]

My Lexus RX300 2001 is a OK car but I too am disappointed, I am a gear head and bought the RX for the wife. It now has 100k and no major problems. I do all my own maintenance and service, but I think the transmisson is weak and we have a lifter problem I must address. For $40k, holy crap these cars should walk on water. I have a 2001 Honda Civic that has cost me nothing and runs circle around this RX and only cost me $13k with 120k miles.

Now its not the same ride,.......but the cost of ownership from a to b is about 1/5 the Lexus costs........

never again.......I'll spend the money on real estate first

I agree with you on the should be better for the money aspect, but as a secondary owner gearhead, you're not the target market for Lexus. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing them in any way but since i've been on this forum, 4 or so years now, I can see that Lexus doesnt really make cars for the people that are here. They make cars for ( OK no surprise) upscale people over 40, who primarily DONT do their own maintenance. I'd even go as far as saying they market to those who primarily lease and return cars as well. Sure they make bank off the resale but after that you're kinda on your own.

[wgwollet]

While it's not what we all hope and expect to get out of an engine these days, 148k still is not all that bad. But for what it's worth, Toyota is still having some problems with engines. They had issues with the V8's in the 03 4Runners, and I've heard reports of problems in the latest Tundra V8's also.

I think that Toyota is the best car producer in the world now. It just goes to show that even the best can still have problems.

That is definitely a bummer that it happened, but I have to side with Lexus--These things do happen. Toyota earned their reputation by minimizing these incident's, not eliminating them.

You may have put $8 grand into it, but you could now have an engine that will go for 300K more miles. Keep on top of the maintenance, give it some new suspension and you might be driving that car for another decade or 15 years.

I would certainly think though, that they could give a lifetime engine warranty or something. I would bet that would increase sales exponentially and that revenue would far outweigh the cost of the few engine replacements that would be necessary.

[RX in NC]

wgwollet,

Honda does a great overall job with their product line-up, but there are many other vehicles out there that are far better from a cost-of-ownership perspective than the Lexus RX series. I've said many times that my 1999 Dodge Ram pickup is a far better vehicle than my wife's previous 2000 RX300 AWD was. It does its duty each and every day and just doesn't break. I couldn't come close to saying that about her RX300 and now her 2004 RX330 (which replaced her RX300 in late January) is back in the shop for still more warranty work that Lexus didn't get right when they had the vehicle for a week back in late May. I'll always respect the LS series, but I sure wish that the RX series had never rolled into our garage. So overpriced, overrated, underpowered, and prone to multiple problems. In the meantime my trusty old Ram just keeps rolling right along....

[tmastres]

Honda does a great overall job with their product line-up, but there are many other vehicles out there that are far better from a cost-of-ownership perspective than the Lexus RX series. I've said many times that my 1999 Dodge Ram pickup is a far better vehicle than my wife's previous 2000 RX300 AWD was. It does its duty each and every day and just doesn't break. I couldn't come close to saying that about her RX300 and now her 2004 RX330 (which replaced her RX300 in late January) is back in the shop for still more warranty work that Lexus didn't get right when they had the vehicle for a week back in late May. I'll always respect the LS series, but I sure wish that the RX series had never rolled into our garage. So overpriced, overrated, underpowered, and prone to multiple problems. In the meantime my trusty old Ram just keeps rolling right along....

I guess its really a matter of perspective, I had a 97 Dodge Dakota truck that was the worst heap I've ever owned. I had the truck for 5 years and couldnt wait to sell it. I had over 30 trips to the dealer for problems including recalls, warranty work and stuff they should have covered but didnt. I got so sick of taking it in that near the end I would just fix it myself at my expense because the dealer was so booked up with service I'd have to wait a week or longer to get it in there. Meanwhile my RX, while not completely trouble free, certainly makes my old Dodge look like it was designed and assembled by drunken chimps.

[RX in NC]

Your problem was the product line you purchased. I wouldn't want a Dakota, either. I've owned various pick-ups for almost 20 years, and here's my advice if you want a dependable truck that is as trouble-free as possible - go with only the full-sized models. Makes no difference whether it is Chevy Silverado, Ford F-150, Dodge Ram, or GMC Sierra. Just stay with the full-sized units. They serve the nation's workforce from corporate all the way down to mom-and-pop and they must deliver the goods each and every day. The Big Three derive significant revenue from and build their reputations on trucks in the workforce, so for decades the full-sized models have received most of the R&D, engineering, manufacturing, and heavy-duty component budgets compared to their smaller-sized brethren such as the S-10, Ranger, or Dakota. In fact, I consider the smaller trucks to be somewhat of an afterthought. They are not engineered nearly as well as the full-sized trucks and they certainly aren't built with equal component quality.

Yes, you'll sacrifice gas mileage by going full-sized and some folks aren't comfortable when parking them. But if you need a truck and you want quality, durability, and the best cost-of-ownership experience while owning one, full-sized is the only way to go. The vast majority of guys who've owned both full-sized trucks and compact trucks over a number of years will echo that sentiment right on down the line....