Ls Navigation -- Call For A Class Action?

[needone]

I notice a tendency of the Management responses to sound an awful lot like the Lexus talking points.

Since I'm the only manager that has chimed in about this issue I'll assume this is directed at me.

I am first and foremost a MEMBER of this site. My opinions are offered as a member and Lexus owner. I do not own the site, I simply volunteer to help design and enfore the posting guidelines of the site and keep the forums neat and orderly. Thats all, I don't work for Lexus, don't get paid by Lexus (or anybody for this by the way), I don't even own a share of Toyota stock. As for the site, Lexus has no ownership interest in the site either and has no input on anything we do here, this site is owned by one private individual.

Just because I don't see what the big deal is about the lockout doesn't mean I'm a product shill.

SW03ES, The fact that I linked the Management responses to the Lexus talking points was based on the "need" issue. In my experience, when an individual or company becomes definsive on an issue they frequently bring up the "need" issue. Need has nothing to do with it, none of us "needs" a Lexus, we choose to have one.

I had no intention to demean or minimize your contributions. I appreciate having this site and thank you for your efforts to keep it orderly.

My concern for the changes in the functionallity of the various keys and buttons that occurs when you begin to move is the issue. I have spent a fair amount of driveway and owners manual time learining the various capabilities of the system and have learned the sometimes cryptic paths to the functions I want to use. To have these change when I am driving removes my my ability to quicklly and safely operate the system or tell someone else how to find what we want. This change in functionallity is, I believe, more unsafe than having one predictable and intuitive system that works under all conditions because my attention is diverted from driving more than it would be were I able to just glance at a user friendly set of controls.

[LS460L]

My concern for the changes in the functionallity of the various keys and buttons that occurs when you begin to move is the issue. I have spent a fair amount of driveway and owners manual time learining the various capabilities of the system and have learned the sometimes cryptic paths to the functions I want to use. To have these change when I am driving removes my my ability to quicklly and safely operate the system or tell someone else how to find what we want. This change in functionallity is, I believe, more unsafe than having one predictable and intuitive system that works under all conditions because my attention is diverted from driving more than it would be were I able to just glance at a user friendly set of controls.

Very well-put, needone!

Just last week, tooling around the roads in Chapel Hill, I wanted to get back to a place I'd put in the Nav system the prior day. Well, when stopped, you just press DEST and then select the nice, large button for previous destinations and then choose another nice, large button for the one you want. Of course, that's if you're stopped. So, I became a bit depressed remembering that I couldn't make that selection while I was driving (neither could my wife, just aside of me). I thought, "I spent money on features that are INCONVENIENT to use." Even more dangerous, when you consider that pulling off of a two-lane road means you actually have to pull into a driveway.

Lexus: Genchi Genbutsu!

[tjfair]

After driving a '96 LS 400 for 270K miles, I gladly plopped down my hard-earned cash for a new 460. Imagine my shock when the car "lawyered up"! Having to (a) agree to the DVD Nav's terms of operation each time I start the car, (b) wait until my driver is stopped before I can use most of the features of the system and © not use the DVD player while in motion is absurd. If Lexus won't offer an unlock (I'll sign any release they put in front of me) for the features I paid good money to have, I may resort to a physical hack. Of course, the last thing I want to do is start dismantling a beautifully finished interior, but...

[tjfair]

Perhaps the lockout should automatically be disabled when the pass side air bag is active indicating that there is a passenger in the front seat therefore allowing use of the nav features that are normally locked while the vehicle is moving.

I had the same thought yesterday as I sat in my passenger seat frustrated by the inability to do anything with the Nav...

[LuvMyLS460]

Add me to the list of folks that find the NAV lockout on our LS460's extremely irritating.

What next? Locking out changing a temperature setting, turning on or off the A/C, changing

from XM to a SAT setting, or GASP! - opening or closing a window? I understand Lexus

wanting a CYA, but for Heaven's sake give the buyers the option of assuming any risk

or responsibility if I cause mass destruction while actually wanting to use a feature I paid

for.

[SW03ES]

I can only speak for myself, but I started this thread to get differing opinions. Steve, you've been vocal, and it's perfectly all right for folks to say they like the lock-outs (for whatever reason). All I ask folks to do is stick to the topic, try to keep to the facts, and bring honest opinions here. I believe your posts are honest and heartfelt.

Thanks but again, I've never said I like the lockouts. I don't think anybody likes the lockouts I just don't think its that big a deal.

SW03ES, The fact that I linked the Management responses to the Lexus talking points was based on the "need" issue. In my experience, when an individual or company becomes definsive on an issue they frequently bring up the "need" issue. Need has nothing to do with it, none of us "needs" a Lexus, we choose to have one.

What I'm saying is purely from a direction of energy standpoint. I learned a long time ago to pick my battles and only expend my energy and time trying to get things accomplished that number one I can succeed in getting accomplished, that were of importance to me or that I need. I personally would never expend my energy and time trying to get a class action suit off the ground with no hope of any possible satisfaction for something that I really don't see as much of an issue.

The question is, what do you want Lexus to do? Do you want them to buyback your car? Thats the only outcome a successful class action suit could possibly have. The court is not going to force Lexus to design their cars any specific way, they'll force them to buy the cars back from people who would not have purchased the car had they known the lockouts existed.

They've been producing this system with these identical lockouts since 1998, they're not going to change it.

I was involved in a class action suit with Motorola and Verizon Wireless involving their V710 phone and Bluetooth. Verizon deliberately crippled the bluetooth profiles that allowed users to transmit and recieve information via bluetooth so that users would have to use Verizon's pay services to do that (pictures, ringtones, etc). Now, it was Verizon's first Bluetooth phone and people had been used to using Bluetooth phones on GSM networks like Cingular for years, and Cingular didn't cripple their phones and Verizon never disclosed the crippled functions, so people were IRATE when they found out.

Anyways what we wanted Verizon & Motorola to do was activate the features in the phone. What the court made them do was buy-back our phones and let us out of contracts if we signed them specifically to buy the phone. They, of course, did not dictate to Verizon how to design their phones they simply punished them for not disclosing what they could and could not do.

So, the question REALLY is, would you rather give your LS460 back or try to get used to how the system works?

[mehullica]

I'm sure starving/homeless kids across the world are also worried about the Nav lockout. I think kids with diseases and cancer are worried about it also. Good God! If the Nav lockout is such an important issue in people lives then I think their priorities are in the wrong places.

[tjfair]

To me, it doesn't matter how long Lexus has been doing the lockout thing. The point is that they shouldn't be doing it. What do I want them to do? Give me a non-surgical method of getting around the lockouts.

[SW03ES]

They're not the only manufacturer that does it...

[SW03ES]

As far as the bypass for the lockout, it only existed from 04-06, before that there was no bypass.

[LS460L]

So, the question REALLY is, would you rather give your LS460 back or try to get used to how the system works?

Of course, I can't compare cellphones to cars, as in your case a competitive advantage was at stake. However, what I can do is answer your question, which gets to the core of the issue.

I know how the system works, and I use it every day. I have also shown my salesman at the Lexus dealer how to use some features that his training hadn't covered sufficiently (which is an interesting point, but not of much value here).

I think that Lexus/Toyota care about customer satisfaction. After driving across country in America, Chief Engineer, Yuji Yokoya wanted to understand everything there was to know about how the Toyota Sienna minivan would be used in the American market. If I remember correctly, he added cupholders and made the bed just a bit longer to accommodate folks he observed putting sheets of plywood into their minivan at a DIY store.

I believe that Lexus engineers should practice genshi genbutsu: they need to come and see for themselves how useless the controls become when you most need them. Then, they should bring along Toyota's and Lexus' lead management with their legal council.

In the end, I want a new Denso release of the Navigation software with any of these options:

1. Lockouts completely removed (Sign a waiver, if necessary).

2. Lockouts turned off when a passenger is in the car (front seat).

3. Unlock software sequence that can be used when needed.

Of course, I'm open for suggestions from Lexus.

I do not ask anyone to judge or anticipate Lexus' actions here. Nobody knows what they may do or suggest. However, if someone thinks of another option, please add it to the list.

[tjfair]

LS460L: In the end, I want a new Denso release of the Navigation software with any of these options:

1. Lockouts completely removed (Sign a waiver, if necessary).

2. Lockouts turned off when a passenger is in the car (front seat).

3. Unlock software sequence that can be used when needed.

Of course, I'm open for suggestions from Lexus.

I do not ask anyone to judge or anticipate Lexus' actions here. Nobody knows what they may do or suggest. However, if someone thinks of another option, please add it to the list.

[end quote]

Well spoken! Any one of the three works for me. I would only add that the "I Agree" startup screen should be removed and the DVD features enabled when the lockout is removed.

[SW03ES]

I know how the system works, and I use it every day. I have also shown my salesman at the Lexus dealer how to use some features that his training hadn't covered sufficiently (which is an interesting point, but not of much value here).

I think that Lexus/Toyota care about customer satisfaction. After driving across country in America, Chief Engineer, Yuji Yokoya wanted to understand everything there was to know about how the Toyota Sienna minivan would be used in the American market. If I remember correctly, he added cupholders and made the bed just a bit longer to accommodate folks he observed putting sheets of plywood into their minivan at a DIY store.

I believe that Lexus engineers should practice genshi genbutsu: they need to come and see for themselves how useless the controls become when you most need them. Then, they should bring along Toyota's and Lexus' lead management with their legal council.

But adding cupholders and a longer bed doesn't open the company up to liability, whether its real or percieved.

Yes Lexus does care about customer satisfaction but remember they've been making this system with these lockouts for nearly 10 years, and in that time sales of the brand have skyrocketed and the system has been heralded as the best on the market many times over. The question is how big an issue is this really for what % of the vehicle's owners? Since Lexus and specifically the LS almost always wins JD Power's IQS, I'd say not that big an issue. You've asked a question here which is "Would you like the system to be fully functional" of course the answer to that question is always yes, its a meaningless question. The question you need to ask is "do you want Lexus to buy back your LS460 because of the navigation lockouts"? You'll get MUCH fewer "yes" responses to that.

In the end, I want a new Denso release of the Navigation software with any of these options:

1. Lockouts completely removed (Sign a waiver, if necessary).

2. Lockouts turned off when a passenger is in the car (front seat).

3. Unlock software sequence that can be used when needed.

You may as well ask for the day to be night and the moon to be green.

Anyways none of these things would be a result of a class action suit, they won't force the company to design a product a specific way. You almost assuredly would loose, but if you won the remedy would be a buyback.

Nobody knows what they may do or suggest.

No, I do know. Lexus is a business, they are not going to expend R&D dollars and open themselves up to potential liability to fix an issue until they are forced to by an overwhelming consensus of their customers. ESPECIALLY a system they've been selling for 10 years with nothing but positive feedback. If you owned a business, would you do that?

What is your goal? If you only want people to post ideas about what Lexus could do to make the system better and then not entertain any notions of how to make them care or the likelyhood of them caring whats the point? Are we just putting out ideas with no purpose? What a waste of time. While you're at it I want the car to fly and it to be available in 250 different colors too.

[1990LS400]

I know many are frustrated with the limitations of the nav and Bluetooth system while driving and I suppose the venting going on here is somewhat healthy.

However, similar limitations on the use of inbuilt nav systems have been on many if not most cars since inbuilt nav was introduced in cars over ten years ago.

It is a little hard for me to have sympathy for those who bought LS460s or other cars without understanding that the nav system had documented and common limitations. Surely all of you knew what you were getting into when you bought an LS460 with nav - especially since the LS430 had similar limitations.

The act of purchasing an LS460 with nav implies that the buyer accepted these documented and common limitations.

The idea of a class action suit against Toyota seems rather childish.

Unlike SW03ES, my wife and I do own Toyota "stock" (ADRs) and I appreciate that Toyota is acting responsibly by equipting their cars with nav systems that, if used properly, promote safety.

[SW03ES]

Can't sum up my position much better than that...

[tjfair]

With absolute faith in the ingenuity of the American entrepreneur, I expect a simple third party solution from http://www.coastaletech.com/ soon. For those of you who want a fix to this problem, send an email to support@coastaletech.com and tell Dave how much you are looking forward to a lockpick for the 2006 LS 460. This might just be enough incentive for him to focus his resources on our particular variety of DVD/nav...

[SW03ES]

That is a much better and more productive use of your time that trying to get Lexus to change their policy on this subject.

[needone]

This is starting to get pretty interesting. Can anyone direct me to a tutorial or something on how to format a post on the forum. Some of you are very good at extracting phrases and making comments and I haven't a clue of how to make a post look like I want it to.

Some have said that Lexus cares about Customer Satisfaction. I see a lot of change in the Lexus attitude and I do not believe that they care much. They are riding the crest of a well deserved wave and have a wonderful product (generally) in the LS460, but try reporting your concern about the lockout to 1-800-LEXUS as I did after my dealer encouraged me to and I think you change your opinion about "customer satisfaction". Lexus is begininning to sound like GM did 10 years ago. Arrogance is not the same as "Ther Relentless Pursuit of Excellence"

[LS460L]

All --

Once, again, I'd like to re-focus this discussion on the here and now. Regardless what we think the response may be from Lexus, the point of this thread is to determine how many folks out there are not happy with the abridged feature-functionality delivered with their LS460.

I respectfully request that we all stick to that point and suspend further speculation as to how Lexus or Toyota may respond.

If you do not like the lock-outs, please respond with your experience.

If you think the lock-outs should be in place, please say so. If you'd like to include your experience, please do.

Once again, let's not get drawn into hypothetical discussions over what the future holds.

For those of you scanning this thread, please tell us of your experience with the Navigation system on the LS460.

[SW03ES]

This is starting to get pretty interesting. Can anyone direct me to a tutorial or something on how to format a post on the forum. Some of you are very good at extracting phrases and making comments and I haven't a clue of how to make a post look like I want it to.

If ou hit "quote" under a post that you want to quote and then hit "reply" it will quote the post in your reply window. You can then edit the quote and break it up into chunks. Don't worry about it, it takes forever to figure out how to do all this stuff.

Some have said that Lexus cares about Customer Satisfaction. I see a lot of change in the Lexus attitude and I do not believe that they care much. They are riding the crest of a well deserved wave and have a wonderful product (generally) in the LS460, but try reporting your concern about the lockout to 1-800-LEXUS as I did after my dealer encouraged me to and I think you change your opinion about "customer satisfaction". Lexus is begininning to sound like GM did 10 years ago. Arrogance is not the same as "Ther Relentless Pursuit of Excellence"

Their attitude has changed somewhat, but I do believe they still care about customer satisfaction. If you contact them about things they can do something about, in general they will do them. There is nothing they can do about the lockout. I just had a bulb burn out in my HVAC control 40k miles out of the warranty, replaced for free without me even having to ask. The just assumed it would be their responsibility.

Regardless what we think the response may be from Lexus, the point of this thread is to determine how many folks out there are not happy with the abridged feature-functionality delivered with their LS460.

I thought the point was to get people involved in a class action suit, as the original title of the thread provided?

If you've got the time and the energy to devote to this for absolutely no purpose, have at it.

For those of you who really want the lockout circumvented, concentrate on the aftermarket. They can do it, its just a question of finding out how. Lexus will not do anything about this under any circumstances.

[bullitt]

That is a much better and more productive use of your time that trying to get Lexus to change their policy on this subject.

I was curious if anyone made note of this issue when you filled out the Lexus survey [if you bothered]. I just filled out both the local dealer and overall car surveys this weekend and gave top marks in all categories EXCEPT the nav system. I paraphrased this thread in the "more information" box. I'll be interested to see if I get any response from Lexus.

Silver Bullitt

[tjfair]

I was curious if anyone made note of this issue when you filled out the Lexus survey [if you bothered]. I just filled out both the local dealer and overall car surveys this weekend and gave top marks in all categories EXCEPT the nav system. I paraphrased this thread in the "more information" box. I'll be interested to see if I get any response from Lexus.

I did the same thing yesterday. Please post any response you receive and I will do the same.

[LS460L]

I thought the point was to get people involved in a class action suit, as the original title of the thread provided?

Please refer to the first posting I made on the thread. I make no mention of a suit. I ask, "How should we persuade Lexus?" and I also go on to say that I'd like to get a feel for how many folks have an issue with the Navigation lock-outs.

[scottielady]

I also find the Lexus lockout very irritating. A Lexus employee recently told me that there is a series of buttons that can be pushed in a specific order on the LS430 (what I used to own) that would eliminate the lockout. I was thrilled to hear this; the employee promised to whisper to me what buttons to push on the LS 460 to eliminate the lockout. I called him today and he said he still can't figure this out.

I also asked him to discuss with the service department whether, if I eliminate the lockout, I will invalidate my service warranty. I was told no problem, the service warranty will still be in effect. The service department was probably laughing and thinking good luck lady figuring out how to eliminate the lockout.

I also talked to a local stereo installation shop owner today and he said he has been trying to figure out how to eliminate the lockout. He said there is a switch that if you push/pull it the lockout is eliminated. But then the LS460 thinks the car is not on so the GPS and phones don't work anyway.

I'd like to suggest that everyone who finds this lockout irritating talk to all the mechanics and stereo installation shops in their area and hopefully someone will be able to figure this out. I think I'll call my stereo guy back and offer him $1,000 reward to figure this out!!!!!

[SW03ES]

They will figure it out. The way the lockouts work is rather simple. The system uses the GPS signal coupled with a "speed sensor" that sends directional and movement information to a computer. Its because of the speed sensor you still have map data when the GPS signal is not receivable such as when you're in a tunnel. This sensor also tells the system when to lockout the functions. All you have to do is interrupt the sensor and you can input destinations.

Someone just needs to find a way to have the software interrupt the sensor when the screen is not on the map display.