Dino To Synthetic Motor Oil

[TunedRX300]

If the Republican controlled US goverment says there is a sludge problem with certain Lexus's, I'm going off that personally. I have read more complaints about Lexus and sludge than I care too. They had a design flaw, it's fixed, but that doesn't make it better for the 100,000's of people who are effected by this settlement. If you get the letter or your Lexus falls under the years effected, get it checked.

Okay but if there was a "design flaw" why is there only 3,000 plus issues vs 3 MILLION engines produced? As why is the settlement stating there is no design issues with the engines? The settlement is a joke, like most out there. I bet 100 to 1, most do not have this issue...............

I had the letter and tossed it in the trash. It means nothing.

Because Toyota has not updated the sludge # since 2002, see this CR report, last paragraph of the left column. So not one sludge in five years? LMAO

If the Republican controlled US goverment says there is a sludge problem with certain Lexus's, I'm going off that personally. I have read more complaints about Lexus and sludge than I care too. They had a design flaw, it's fixed, but that doesn't make it better for the 100,000's of people who are effected by this settlement. If you get the letter or your Lexus falls under the years effected, get it checked.

Okay but if there was a "design flaw" why is there only 3,000 plus issues vs 3 MILLION engines produced? As why is the settlement stating there is no design issues with the engines? The settlement is a joke, like most out there. I bet 100 to 1, most do not have this issue...............

I had the letter and tossed it in the trash. It means nothing.

LMAO

Because Toyota has not updated the sludge # since 2002, see this CR report, last paragraph of the left column. So not one sludge in five years? Oh, I forgot Toyota redesign the 1MZ, but why would it redesign the engine if there is no design flaw in the first place?

[mburnickas]

Problem is CR tests are poor at best. Again mostly the issues reported vs, have,are slight at best.

[TunedRX300]

Problem is CR tests are poor at best. Again mostly the issues reported vs, have,are slight at best.

CR is not the one that did the sludge count, it merely reported Toyota's official released number of 3400 up to 2002. CR is an INDEPENDENT and reputable firm, which business is based on providing unbiased data and professional opinion. On the other hand, Toyota has a conflict of interest on the sludge issue and is in the business of providing biased marketing and PR messaging in order to increase profit. Anyone pays for Toyota sales brochure and PR statements out his/her own pocket?

FWIW, here is an exact quote from CR

Toyota, the company with the most engines in question cited 3400 complaints through 2002 but hasn't provided an updated number since.

CR reported The Center for Auto Safety has accounted for additional 1300 sludged engine from 2004 to August 2005 (publish date of the CR report). No one has the # of sludged Toyota engines for the missing three and half years and counting:

1) # of sludged engines from 2002 to 2004

2) # of sludged engines from 8/05 to now

My point is to inaccurate to use of 3000 as the total # of sludge engines against 3.3 Million because the data is incomplete. I understand you have a 1mz and no sludge. Great, but no way does one clean 1mz-fe engine means thousands of other 1mz owners do not have sludge.

[mburnickas]

Cr again tests are poor at best. Look at there least test they had to "remove" or there last wax test. Give me a break. It is hit or miss with them. So people take them as the "the last word"; I do not even read there tests. I have owned many items that are "poor" in there tests. That is the great thing about SPC in manufacturing items.

Per the settlement Toyota has done nothing wrong per there design; and for me, I agree.

Again, playing the other side, so now 1300+3000 out of how many???? Even at 3X that the percent is so small, in design land, it is not an issue.

If people changed their oil at proper intervals when using dino, change the correct env parts, there will not be a problem. It is when people get lazy this happens. I am doing well over the limit of Toyota oil-school drains and nothing. I am not the smartest guy in the world here either.

[djspawn00]

Hey, i changed my oil religiously... and i had the problem.. bad luck.. or bad engineering?

As far as bashing on CR, sure some of their test, like the one on car wax may not appeal or appear to accurate by some car enthusiast but skewing statistical data isn't going to help anyone. Pretty much everything they do is done by the numbers, numbers, and then some more numbers. Of course the car seat test that they retracted was like one in 70 something years...thats not a bad record.

Also, if there was nothing wrong.. why would toyota end up having to take action. Fact is, there was a problem, not the biggest problem, not a widespread problem, but none the less a problem.

[mburnickas]

Again there is a little more to it then just changing the oil. If you had it, in my eyes, you did not do the correct work on the car. It is not skewing the data. If there was a problem (global) show me more then the small numbers. Why is there is not recall, or TSB or anymore more then the small numbers? I do not consider it a problem, it is a road block on a few peoples cars that got lazy, did not follow the correct procedures or just the want SPC works. Based on the total # of cars and the small effected, there is no problem. Again, I have the wonderful sludge prone that is “all bad” plus using non-toyota coolant and 10 to 12K oil drain intervals (over 2 times what most do). Either I am lucky or the problem is way overstated. Based on the millions produced and work correctly, I am not just lucky.....

They [Toyota] where taking action since that was a court settlement, as many noted before. Have you read the settlement? If you did, you would know the answer.

[djspawn00]

Again there is a little more to it then just changing the oil. If you had it, in my eyes, you did not do the correct work on the car. It is not skewing the data. If there was a problem (global) show me more then the small numbers. Why is there is not recall, or TSB or anymore more then the small numbers? I do not consider it a problem, it is a road block on a few peoples cars that got lazy, did not follow the correct procedures or just the want SPC works. Based on the total # of cars and the small effected, there is no problem. Again, I have the wonderful sludge prone that is “all bad” plus using non-toyota coolant and 10 to 12K oil drain intervals (over 2 times what most do). Either I am lucky or the problem is way overstated. Based on the millions produced and work correctly, I am not just lucky.....

They [Toyota] where taking action since that was a court settlement, as many noted before. Have you read the settlement? If you did, you would know the answer.

Darn I must've been adding corn oil to my engine every 3k or 4k miles I knew I should've used Canola or that syntec virgin olive, and I really should've changed my oil filter in the 5 years I've owned the car... darn i knew I was doing something wrong. I hope these speed holes I put in my hood with a pick axe will add more HP (Learned that move from homer simpson) than those NOS stickers I used to cover the scratches in my bumper.... yeah toyota could never ever make a mistake even a small, microscopic .1% mistake... nah that would never happen. Of course I could've just used a full synthetic that I always had on hand but used in other vehicles instead.

[mburnickas]

Again there is a little more to it then just changing the oil. If you had it, in my eyes, you did not do the correct work on the car. It is not skewing the data. If there was a problem (global) show me more then the small numbers. Why is there is not recall, or TSB or anymore more then the small numbers? I do not consider it a problem, it is a road block on a few peoples cars that got lazy, did not follow the correct procedures or just the want SPC works. Based on the total # of cars and the small effected, there is no problem. Again, I have the wonderful sludge prone that is "all bad" plus using non-toyota coolant and 10 to 12K oil drain intervals (over 2 times what most do). Either I am lucky or the problem is way overstated. Based on the millions produced and work correctly, I am not just lucky.....

They [Toyota] where taking action since that was a court settlement, as many noted before. Have you read the settlement? If you did, you would know the answer.

Darn I must've been adding corn oil to my engine every 3k or 4k miles I knew I should've used Canola or that syntec virgin olive, and I really should've changed my oil filter in the 5 years I've owned the car... darn i knew I was doing something wrong. I hope these speed holes I put in my hood with a pick axe will add more HP (Learned that move from homer simpson) than those NOS stickers I used to cover the scratches in my bumper.... yeah toyota could never ever make a mistake even a small, microscopic .1% mistake... nah that would never happen. Of course I could've just used a full synthetic that I always had on hand but used in other vehicles instead.

I am just playing the other side. Per the settlement Toyota was not at fault. I always see people post now and then that say they have sludge, no picture, not UOA not nothing. If I look in my oil fill cap I would say I have sludge (I did do this too). I pulled the covers and it was clean. I should have trusted my UOA for eyars but I had to know. Since I am in the engineering field, even if they have 10,000 issues out of 3,000,000 cars that is not an issue per say.

Then again a “full synthetic” is not Amsoil, Redline etc. I just do not see how people if they change the oil and filter, air filter, PCV and other envir items there could be an issue.

[TunedRX300]

Speaking of UOA, have you found that UOA of a straight Group II dino that lasts 5K in 1mzfe?

I do have a few UOAs that shows TBNs of oil used at Toyota dealer, Chevron Supreme, and other brands that are toasted around 3K. Want URL links?

What does Toyota owners' manual say on what oil to use and how long OCI for 1mzfe based models?

Oh, I forget that Toyota owners must be more lazy than owners of Honda and Nissan. Heck, Toyota' PR is right, owners' abuse (not just unknowingly forget) is the ONLY cause.

Let's see this NY Times reports say. Exact Quote

In Toyota’s case, 68 percent of its recent recalls can be blamed on design flaws, according to Goldman Sachs

Wait what does Toyota's own executives say?

At Toyota’s annual executive meeting in June, its departing chairman, Hiroshi Okuda; the new chairman, Fujio Cho; and its chief executive, Katsuaki Watanabe, all vowed to managers that the quality issue would be addressed, according to a senior Toyota executive who attended the meeting.

“The quality issue is a big concern. They’re embarrassed about it,” said the executive, who insisted on anonymity because the meeting was private.

“You think about Toyota, and quality is in our DNA,” he continued. “We are concerned about looking like the rest of the pack. The market is forgiving because of our long reputation, but how long will they be forgiving?”

Whoops, Goldman Sachs must be not credible as well, along with NYT and NHTSA. Because they report and post data against Toyota's interests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/05/b...5e2a887&ei=5070

August 5, 2006

Repairing Some Dents in an Image

By MICHELINE MAYNARD and MARTIN FACKLER

The news is something no car owner wants to hear. Power steering on their hard-to-get hybrid could fail. Tires on their small pickups could bulge and possibly burst. Air bags may not inflate during a crash.

These recalls are the type that have long bedeviled American carmakers, but this time it was Toyota of Japan, long known as the crème de la crème in quality.

Just as Toyota appears poised to pass General Motors to become the world’s largest automaker, it has a growing problem with recalls that is sullying its carefully honed image.

In the United States, Toyota’s largest market, the number of vehicles recalled soared to 2.2 million last year. That was double the number of vehicles recalled in 2004, and more than 10 times the 200,000 cars it recalled in 2003, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

In Japan, the number of recalled vehicles has jumped 41-fold since 2001, to 1.9 million last year. And because many of the recalls are for vehicles that are more than 10 years old, analysts fear that another wave of bad quality news may be in store.

The situation has alarmed Toyota’s top executives and angered the Japanese government. It ordered Toyota to explain itself, which the company did in a report delivered Thursday, accompanied by the latest in a series of apologies. In it, the company promised to create a new computer database to obtain information more quickly from dealers on repairs and complaints. The police in Japan said three Toyota officials were under criminal investigation on suspicion that they concealed vehicle defects over eight years.

Inside Toyota, the spate of recalls and the criminal investigation has caused a flurry of high-level efforts to diagnose and fix the problems, which have affected its Prius hybrid, the gold standard among fuel-efficient vehicles; the Tacoma pickup; and cars in its Lexus luxury lineup.

Quality problems can befall any company, whether based in Detroit, Europe or elsewhere. This week, in fact, Ford expanded a recall of its vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks because of problems with cruise control systems that were prone to catching fire.

For now, Toyota’s quality issues do not seem to be damping its operations either in Japan, where it is the biggest automaker, or the United States, where Toyota passed Ford in July to rank as the No. 2 company in terms of auto sales. Nor is it affecting Toyota’s net income, which climbed 39.2 percent during the second-quarter, to $3.2 billion, the company said yesterday. [Page C4.]

But executives know they cannot let the situation fester, because it ultimately threatens Toyota’s ability to grow. If they fail to get their arms around the problem, they will have to pull back on the company’s expansion plans, which are set to include more assembly and engine plants for the United States, as well as factories elsewhere.

At Toyota’s annual executive meeting in June, its departing chairman, Hiroshi Okuda; the new chairman, Fujio Cho; and its chief executive, Katsuaki Watanabe, all vowed to managers that the quality issue would be addressed, according to a senior Toyota executive who attended the meeting.

“The quality issue is a big concern. They’re embarrassed about it,” said the executive, who insisted on anonymity because the meeting was private.

“You think about Toyota, and quality is in our DNA,” he continued. “We are concerned about looking like the rest of the pack. The market is forgiving because of our long reputation, but how long will they be forgiving?”

Interviews with car owners and dealers show they have some latitude.

Bruce Wachtell, 71, bought a 2006 Prius in March after years of driving a Toyota Tacoma pickup without any problems.

“It’s never seen a dealer,” he said of the truck.

Mr. Wachtell, a retired ship’s radio officer living in Stinson Beach, Calif., began buying foreign cars after growing frustrated with the quality of American-made vehicles. That sentiment is confirmed, he said, whenever he peruses repair records for various brands in Consumer Reports, and he has not lost any confidence in Toyota because of the recent recalls.

“I think recalls are just simply a function of the fact that no design is perfect,” he said.

Mr. Wachtell called his dealership after discovering recall notices that included the 2006 Prius on the Internet, but he was told his vehicle was not among those affected. Both the Tacoma and the Prius, however, are among the vehicles in Toyota’s recent recalls.

At Bredemann Toyota in Park Ridge, Ill., Don Ziemke, the general sales manager, said only a few shoppers had asked about the implications of the recalls. Other dealers said they had prepared their employees to answer such questions, but that no one had even brought up the topic.

“Toyota’s longevity and reliability has always been a strong suit,” Mr. Ziemke said. “That kind of takes a hit when there are recalls out there.”

Still, he said, “It’s against the grain as far as what Toyota has provided its dealer body and customers in the past.”

The primary reason for the recalls is Toyota’s overloaded engineering staff, say company executives and industry analysts.

Despite its global expansion during the 1990’s, it failed to hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases.

And it kept most of its development in Japan, even though it built research and development centers in places like Ann Arbor, Mich., and Brussels. At the same time, a new Japanese law required companies to pay for overtime for white-collar workers, raising the costs incurred by engineers, whose long hours on the job were the stuff of industry legend.

Analysts say that all this may have contributed to a number of errors introduced during vehicle development. There have been fewer problems on the assembly line, however, which has been a more common cause of recent recalls at other carmakers like Nissan.

Another issue is that Toyota, like other global auto companies, has farmed out the development of key components to its suppliers, both companies with which it has been doing business for years, like Denso of Japan, and newer ones, like the Delphi Corporation, the biggest American parts maker.

The damage has been slow to emerge — indeed, most recent recalls involve cars produced in the 1990’s. But that means potential problems from hectic growth years in the early 2000’s have yet to appear, and analysts warn that Toyota’s quality woes may only become worse before they get better.

“I’m more concerned about the future,” said Kunihiko Shiohara, an auto analyst for Goldman Sachs in Tokyo. “A fundamental turnaround in quality levels will take at least four years.”

It also does not help that some rivals appear to be gaining quality ground on Toyota, whose Toyota-brand cars and Lexus line of luxury cars had long topped quality rankings. It still dominated the recommended list from Consumer Reports this year. But in June, a survey of new-vehicle quality by J. D. Power & Associates, a marketing research company, ranked the German luxury carmaker Porsche in the top spot, and with Hyundai of South Korea in second place, ahead of Toyota at No. 3.

To be sure, rising recall numbers are not limited to Toyota. A reason that recalls have gone up is that automakers are using an increasing number of common parts across a number of car models, which saves money, but also means that flaws affect larger numbers of vehicles.

Another is the increasing complexity of vehicles, as companies rely more heavily on electronics and computerized features that used to be mechanical. “It’s not fair to single out Toyota for many problems,” said Takaki Nakanishi, an auto industry analyst with J. P. Morgan in Tokyo.

Still, the rapid rise in recalls at Toyota stands out in comparison with other carmakers. In Japan, where Toyota is the largest auto company, with about 39 percent of the market, its recalls quadrupled over the last four years, to 1.9 million in 2005. That compares with 199,000 at No. 2 Nissan and 205,000 at Honda in 2005, according to the transportation ministry.

In Toyota’s case, 68 percent of its recent recalls can be blamed on design flaws, according to Goldman Sachs. They include rubber parts not made thick enough to withstand engine heat and joints too weak to hold together. Of Toyota’s recalls in 2004, 68 percent were because of design problems, Goldman Sachs said.

Analysts say Toyota’s problems stem from the mid-1990’s, when Mr. Okuda, who was president, began expanding its global production. Toyota did not hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases because it was trying to meet tough self-imposed cost-cutting targets, analysts said.

Understaffed design centers have also forced Toyota to rely on large parts makers to help design major components “Toyota’s resources have been stretched quite a bit by the big increases in volume,” said Andrew Phillips, an analyst at Nikko Citigroup in Tokyo. “What’s remarkable is that most the recalls now predate the really big ramp-up.”

That came after 2000, when Toyota’s annual vehicle sales rose to the almost 8.85 million expected this year, from about 6 million.

But Toyota has increased the hiring of new engineers, bringing on 979 last year, compared with 310 in 2001. A company spokesman, Paul Nolasco, said Toyota planned to hire at least another 850 this year.

In a departure from corporate tradition that stressed spending a career at a single company, Toyota wants 200 of its new hires to be experienced engineers hired in midcareer from elsewhere.

In June, Toyota assigned a second executive vice president to its quality control division and created a new senior managing director spot dedicated to improving quality.

“Everyone is taking this very seriously,” said a top-ranking executive in Toyota’s North American operations who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. The stakes are high, he added: “If we can’t lick it, we will have to slow down” — a decision Toyota hopes it does not have to make.

Nick Bunkley contributed reporting for this article.

[mburnickas]

rx300-

For me, I think Toyota is about 10 to 15 years BEHIND the use of synthetic oils and duration. If you trust them, have at it with old info. I have my own UOA's of using a certain oil for a good baseline. Can you show a good basline on your links? I bet not.

Also, are the grp 2 oils in your own personal car or someone elses? I trust BTOG links like ZERO.....Sorry to much sales BS over there and lack of certain info.

Now I use the newspaper for numbers and info? Nope. Sorry, to easy to bend the truth in %'s. Beside what is defined as a "design flaw" I again work in design and putting a clamp in the wrong place or hose 1" off could be a "design flaw" per them. Do making a engineering change count as a "design flaw. Seems like they do not really know since they are reporters. Does continues improvement (aka changes) mean design flaws?

You can post all the "stuff" about mr.XXX, the point I am making is per there legal binding court settlement, they did nothing wrong. Read it and see for yourself.

Again, I can play both sides with this.

Now that being stated I AM doing (3) not (1) dino intervals (group 2 for from 5 to 7K miles) and posting all three UOa when done; three is the VERY least you can have to having a meaningful "graph". If anyone thinks a oil UOA here and there mean anything, they need do not understand UOA's.

I still think the oil issue is based on the customer issues, not "design flaws". The link above you posted is nothing short of TR protecting their behind since they do not want to lose sales ($$$$$). They have to show something to please the few.

[TunedRX300]

Legal settlement is nothing more than a bi-lateral agreement between Toyota and those who wish to sell their rights to sue. To those who opt out, the settlement means nothing. To Toyota, nothing but a cheap way to buy off future liability from those who 1) do not know they gain nothing but a mere additional 120 days to make claim 2) care less until sludge happen to them.

Please do post Group II dino UOAs when you are done, did you say 3 UOAs. I am all "eyes" and I am sure others will be interested as well.

Did you realize that people/companies tend to bend the truth if there are conflicts of interest? People value independent data and unbiased professional opinion. Ever heard of the information provided by Iraqi information officer? Or the wonderful financial statements before Enron's frauds were exposed?

Are you sure I don't have a baseline of my 1mz-fe? Please don't assume, I have a M1, in the process of getting GC + ARX UOA. Also I value UOAs from other 1mz-fe owners because data from many engines is far better than data from one.

[mburnickas]

I agree and the settlement do not even show there is a problem. :)

Toyota is saving its image, based on the select few with issues; with the "we are meeting with NYT and NHTSA..." They can do this and say we are working with blah blah. They have to show the small few with issues, they are doing something rather then nothing.

The settlement states that the owner, if they have sludge, MIGHT get some money. The settlement is BS.

Yes I need (3) UOA since (1) or (2) is meaningless. I love it when people post 1 and say this is a great oil....<I shake my head> I do not value other people UOA for reasons below and they are a very wide open picture. If you have some UOA for a proper baseline, please provide these "toasted" oils. what defines a "toasted oil"? Problem is using other people UOA to see how YOUR engine "might" run is okay at best. Add in all the tolerances, parts used, duration, driving etc etc. You are lucky to get within large % or average. Do you want to be on the high or low; all this is an average. The only true way is some UOA on your car. Using other peoples UOA is guessing.

I agree people selling stuff bend the truth. That is why I valve findings on the "oil site" very little. Too much sales people.

Goodluck with ARX and the (2) or (3) oz deal; I like ARX but I find their UOA they posted about this dosage, a few month ago, nothing special here on wears, tbn etc. Nevermind the (1) before and (1) after UOA. Talk about jumping the gun here bigtime. Show me 3 to 5 drains with the same numbers, same engine, same dosage etc etc and maybe you have something. Again I like this product (along with others) but ARX is jumping the gun here big time..I feel.

[Scrub Hunter]

Only anal people should buy Toyota's or Lexus. People who aren't super vigilant in maintenance, will end up with major sludge. At a minimum I would run an anti sludge product religiously if I had a Toyo/lex. The funny thing is that the general public still thinks of Toyota and Lexus as being a very reliable car, but in the last decade they are one of the worse. They are very sturdy with well built suspensions, but that's as far as any love I have for the brand anymore. Can you say Sludge Beasts.

[mburnickas]

Only anal people should buy Toyota's or Lexus. People who aren't super vigilant in maintenance, will end up with major sludge. At a minimum I would run an anti sludge product religiously if I had a Toyo/lex. The funny thing is that the general public still thinks of Toyota and Lexus as being a very reliable car, but in the last decade they are one of the worse. They are very sturdy with well built suspensions, but that's as far as any love I have for the brand anymore. Can you say Sludge Beasts.

I disagree since I have owned many other cars (Chev, pon's, olds, Fords) and this Lexus is by far the best and least issues. If they are the "worst", this is odd since JD power still thinks they are #1. I am not "super vigilant in maintenance" and have no issues. Just saying if this was a major design issue Toyota would have a better plan of action for corrective action rather then a little letter saying to just show some oil changes. Plus there would be a lot more cases then what is documented. But, this is me :)

I also disagree on the sludge bests since the #'s do not show this. Even if all the documented issues (little above 3,000 engines ) was 10X that, out of over 3,000,000+ engines. Not a major issue. Does anyone understand Kaizen here?

[SW03ES]

Only anal people should buy Toyota's or Lexus. People who aren't super vigilant in maintenance, will end up with major sludge. At a minimum I would run an anti sludge product religiously if I had a Toyo/lex. The funny thing is that the general public still thinks of Toyota and Lexus as being a very reliable car, but in the last decade they are one of the worse. They are very sturdy with well built suspensions, but that's as far as any love I have for the brand anymore. Can you say Sludge Beasts.

Can you post any sort of documentation to back any of this up? Find me ONE sludge complaint on a Toyota/Lexus built in the last decade (ESPECIALLY a Lexus) that does not have the 97-02 3.0liter V6. You won't find ONE sludge complaint. As far as reliability, Toyota and Lexus both are still extremely high on the reliability and satisfaction ratings from EVERY independent source that keeps such ratings.

Talk about uninformed comments...

[djspawn00]

I'd still say toyota produces some of the most reliable cars and I own 9 cars at this current moment to base my judgement. They did make a mistake IMHO. As an owner of a 1mz replacee I'm glad they looked into it. Afterall only a few people died from taco bell out of its millions of customers... less than .001% but they did something wrong and admitted it. Toyota plead the fifth, which is fine by me I still trust thier products. I also agree with mburnickas that many customers were responsible are responsible for the problem they faced, but not every customer... that would be saying toyota is infallible, cmon now... as for kaizen.. heres a link if you didn't know...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

[KBRX330]

I am new to this forum but have a 2004 Rx330 with 100,000 miles on it and have used valvoline 5w30 since new with the toyota oil filter. I have decided to switch to valvoline maxlife synthetic blend for the next 100,000 miles to see how it does. Now after finding a post on this forum about how to do an oil change I am doing all my own oil service and today changed the differential oil for $6 versus the $100 the dealer charges. I bought a Motive brand fluid extractor and use it to change the trans fluid and p/s fluid so now I can do a complete full vehicle oil service with filters for $49. Much better than the $400 dealer cost IMO. :D