91 Ls.. Poor Student About To Lose My Mind

[sahtt]

Ever since I bought this car 6-9 months ago, it has had a slight starting problem that has progressively got worse. During this entire time, I have put less than 1,200 miles on it because of it. This includes two round trips from houston/austin, which is 1/2 of the miles alone. It started as only a warm start issue. It's been in 3 different shops over 5 times, all lexus specialists, and recieved many different treatments, and lots of money and TONS of my own time down the drain. All seem to work temporarily, but within a couple days its back to its old self. I've studied these issues intensely and still haven't figured it out. It has completely ruined my experience with this car. I'm a financially independent undergrad student and thank God my motorcycle has kept trucking with 30k miles now. It is not fun driving an hour and a half to work in full leathers in 100+ degree heat in Houston, much rather be in my Lexus but I can't afford to have it towed so it mainly sits. I couldn't be morally sound and dump this car on someone else knowing it may leave them stranded, nor can I sell it at 1/2 what it is worth by being totally honest about it.

Condition: Wouldn't start warm, sometimes up to 2-3 hours. It just cranks and cranks but won't start. Randomly wouldn't start, even when cold, usually after sitting a couple days. Runs like butter once it starts, and otherwise has 0 issues besides normal wear/tear.

What I've done, some directly for this, some just hoping to catch something a little off, some just for maint. since the car isn't moving anyways->

Full timing belt job, water pump, cam seals, crank seal, idler pullies, the works

Fuel/air filter

Replaced fuel pump twice. That's right, an aftermarket brand, supposedly still the problem, so I put an OEM in there.

Redid some wiring around the crank position sensor as well as 'reorganize' the rest of any exposed wiring [done by shop].

New battery, new terminals though one doesn't fit too great. No telling what else, getting late here.

Had the entire electrical system checked piece by piece and everything was "perfect" except the fuel pump wouldn't pull any amps. Replaced with aftermarket. Ran a whole two times then back to the shop. Wouldn't pull amps again, replaced with OEM. Drove it back to college, won't start now. I did all the above myself with minimal tools [no power], no garage, no training, just out of desperation and determination.

I have spent an easy 150 man hours on this car and a weeks worth of nights working DEEP into the night on this car with almost 0 return. Several days covered in gas. Hours bent over getting in my apartment complex getting an unwanted sun tan.

I just bought an acura integra, 1 owner, checked out by a reputable shop, and it started running on 3 cylinders the day after I bought it. I can only handle so much. The acura I can deal with, but I need to get this Lexus fixed and sold before I set it on fire or blow up a blood vessel in my brain.

My problem is I don't know who to trust in order to take care of this issue. It's hard to show them and I bet they'll just try to find something* wrong to fix and charge me. I have a sick feeling in my stomach it is on the brink of unfixable and undiagnosible. One of the shop's owner personally worked on my car and was sure it was the fuel pump, which obviously isn't the case. I have much more confidence in him then the often slightly moronic techs at the dealership. My only hope there is that they've experienced a problem like this before. I completely realize it's just a machine and spark/air/fuel, but it isn't that simple when you actually start tearing things apart.

Anything I can do myself? Tow it to the dealer [i've already had nearly 200 in tow charges, an unbelieveable waste of money to someone paying for his own school and working for 10.00 an hour 65 hours/week during the summer] and see what's the most expensive thing they can find somewhat broken to fix? Crash it into a pole [jk I have liability nor do I suggest insurance fraud]? Sell as is for a massive loss and be miserable for 2-3 years? I'm only asking 5400 for the car [theoretically fixed 100%] and would take 5k. It has 134k miles, great body, interior, all maint/fluids done, high end mich's in good shape, and thorough maint. records for the last 7 years.

Argh!

[cleverdick]

My first thought would have been coil packs or ignition module, but that doesn't explain why it runs once started. If the fuel pump doesn't draw any current then it's looking more like a relay or perhaps a bad connector somewhere that you've missed. Sorry I can't be more helpful right now as I'm at work and the manual is at home! But somebody will be along shortly to help you out, that's for sure. Just hang in there. With all those things you've replaced it's definitely worth persisting with! No fault is undiagnosable. I had a Ford once that kept cutting out, almost to the point where I could accurately predict where it would do it. Nobody could find the cause, until I removed the fuel sender unit from the tank and found a secret filter that was clogged and blocking the pipe. This filter was not in any manual, even the 2-volume Ford dealer's book. (Toyota are better in this respect.) The point is, if you assume nothing you eventually will find it. Good luck...

:P

[Rx330driver]

hang in there is all i can say. in the mean time, you can drive your acura to where ever. Also, maybe a financial planner is in need :P stop buying "half" cars when you can buy a whole car for the same price. and maybe a new job thats closer and has better pay while your at it. these people knows these cars inside and out. They will better serve you. Me? im just a financial planner :)

[LScott400]

You may have seen this recent Thread. If not, you might see if your symptoms are in common with AustinGT. His turned out to be a fuel injector pump relay.

[nc211]

You say you have the mechanical records for the past 7 years? Are these the records from the Lexus dealership?? If not, you need to have your vin # ran at the dealership for a report on ALL historical maintence items they have done on the car.... You are looking for only one line item: The only true "recall" ever issued on the LS400...is....the....STARTER!! I believe they corrected the problem starting in 96 or 97. The recall applied to all LS400's prior to the corrected year. Mine is a 1995, and my starter was replaced under the recall by the previous owner at around 40k miles.

You need to find out if your starter was ever replaced under this recall before you move forward with everything else. It is my understanding, as explained to me from Lexus, that the previous starters were getting burned up by people trying to start the car, when not realizing the car was already running. Just took a few times doing that to start the cycle for starter failure..

Again, this is a Lexus issued recall, the only one they've ever issued, and I'm 99% sure it applies to your model year.

Get the ENTIRE history from Lexus, not from anyone or anything else. Look for the recall service being performed... If not, then, you have a "possible" out for having your starter replaced for free. However, take into account the car is 14 years old, and you're not the original owner. You might need to plead your case to Lexus Corporate on this one. But no doubt, if your starter was never replaced under the recall, then this is most likely your problem.

PS: I don't care what indi-shop says they're "Lexus Specialists"... if they're not the dealer, then they're not true "specialists", they're just experienced. Granted, some more than others, and most can handle most items, but some items require the specialist knowledge "aka, access to the corporate records for model lines." A true specialist, especially one charging you money for their knowledge, would have known this, and would have started here first.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

PPS: "new terminals though one doesn't fit too great. No telling what else, getting late here.

Had the entire electrical system checked piece by piece and everything was "perfect" except the fuel pump wouldn't pull any amps."

Uh, the terminals need to fit perfectly.... I assume you've checked the fuses for the fuel pump? If they're blowing out, and your terminal is not properly secured, then you might be sending sporatic current through the system while in motion, which is tripping the fuse.

[sahtt]

hang in there is all i can say. in the mean time, you can drive your acura to where ever. Also, maybe a financial planner is in need :P stop buying "half" cars when you can buy a whole car for the same price. and maybe a new job thats closer and has better pay while your at it. these people knows these cars inside and out. They will better serve you. Me? im just a financial planner :)

Well I could but I dropped a screw replacing the dist. rotor so I have to wait a week on it from Honda. Not sure what you mean by half cars, but I'm an economics major and am very good with $$ most of the time. It's not easy to own 2 cars, a bike, and be a junior in an expensive college with no debt. By buying a 'whole' car I guess you mean a new one or near new one? I can't afford a decent new car nor do I want to lose 2-3 thousand in depreciation. I wouldn't have two cars if I could just sell the damn Lexus. Every automobile BUT this lexus I have actually made a profit on, including tires, taxes, maint. items, etc. by buying it cheap, using it for a year, and doing all work myself. This includes old sports cars, supposedly much less reliable than this lexus.

I'm hopeful someone will give me some clues, any help is appreciated.

You may have seen this recent Thread. If not, you might see if your symptoms are in common with AustinGT. His turned out to be a fuel injector pump relay.

AustinGT is not present in that thread. I'll search later when I get some free time.

[blake918]

You may have seen this recent Thread. If not, you might see if your symptoms are in common with AustinGT. His turned out to be a fuel injector pump relay.

AustinGT is not present in that thread. I'll search later when I get some free time.

Austin is in there; see posts 16, 21, and 24 where he discusses the problems that he had with the fuel pump relay. ;)

[sahtt]

You say you have the mechanical records for the past 7 years? Are these the records from the Lexus dealership?? If not, you need to have your vin # ran at the dealership for a report on ALL historical maintence items they have done on the car.... You are looking for only one line item: The only true "recall" ever issued on the LS400...is....the....STARTER!! I believe they corrected the problem starting in 96 or 97. The recall applied to all LS400's prior to the corrected year. Mine is a 1995, and my starter was replaced under the recall by the previous owner at around 40k miles.

You need to find out if your starter was ever replaced under this recall before you move forward with everything else. It is my understanding, as explained to me from Lexus, that the previous starters were getting burned up by people trying to start the car, when not realizing the car was already running. Just took a few times doing that to start the cycle for starter failure..

Again, this is a Lexus issued recall, the only one they've ever issued, and I'm 99% sure it applies to your model year.

Get the ENTIRE history from Lexus, not from anyone or anything else. Look for the recall service being performed... If not, then, you have a "possible" out for having your starter replaced for free. However, take into account the car is 14 years old, and you're not the original owner. You might need to plead your case to Lexus Corporate on this one. But no doubt, if your starter was never replaced under the recall, then this is most likely your problem.

PS: I don't care what indi-shop says they're "Lexus Specialists"... if they're not the dealer, then they're not true "specialists", they're just experienced. Granted, some more than others, and most can handle most items, but some items require the specialist knowledge "aka, access to the corporate records for model lines." A true specialist, especially one charging you money for their knowledge, would have known this, and would have started here first.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

PPS: "new terminals though one doesn't fit too great. No telling what else, getting late here.

Had the entire electrical system checked piece by piece and everything was "perfect" except the fuel pump wouldn't pull any amps."

Uh, the terminals need to fit perfectly.... I assume you've checked the fuses for the fuel pump? If they're blowing out, and your terminal is not properly secured, then you might be sending sporatic current through the system while in motion, which is tripping the fuse.

I had the VIN ran when I first got the car, didn't notice anything about a starter recall, nor was I aware that one existed for this particular application. The starter is not the issue based on the symptoms, as a busted starter just clicks and dies, but considering how much I have cranked the car I'd feel better knowing I had a new one. As far as I know it's the original starter.

The positive terminal was old and warped to the point it wouldn't tighten. I ordered a new one from Sea Well Lexus but you have to rewire it to the new terminal, so I bought an Autozone one and rigged it up. I just have to tighten it every once in a while. Obviously I already checked that sort of stuff. The fuel pump fuses were ok when the car was last checked on two weeks ago. I don't know off hand where they are.

Thanks for you guys' help so far.

[blake918]

I had the VIN ran when I first got the car, didn't notice anything about a starter recall, nor was I aware that one existed for this particular application. The starter is not the issue based on the symptoms, as a busted starter just clicks and dies, but considering how much I have cranked the car I'd feel better knowing I had a new one. As far as I know it's the original starter.

The positive terminal was old and warped to the point it wouldn't tighten. I ordered a new one from Sea Well Lexus but you have to rewire it to the new terminal, so I bought an Autozone one and rigged it up. I just have to tighten it every once in a while. Obviously I already checked that sort of stuff. The fuel pump fuses were ok when the car was last checked on two weeks ago. I don't know off hand where they are.

Thanks for you guys' help so far.

The NHTSA doesn't have any recalls on file for the '91. I think the starter issues were for 95 or 96 or both. Fuses and relays are two different animals. ;)

[teamer]

Hi,

I read your post and know your frustrations.

Did you read the similar post by 914lps- "No Start, No Fuel, No spark-What killed my 91 LS 400" very recently? This person had similar condition where the car could not start when it was warm. The problem that was finally discovered was a broken harmonic balancer.

Have you had your balancer checked out?

Hang in there, I know you spent alot of money, but the car you own has a great reputation for longevity and reliability. It just takes one discovery to solve a big problem.

-David

[AustinGT]

Hey guys- sorry to hear about the problems sahtt is having- as a fellow student, I hear ya' about pouring hard-earned money into the car! Anyway, because I did not personally fix my Ls, I talked to my mechanic about what was wrong with mine (not starting, continually cranking, etc.), and he said it was actually a bad connection in the fuse box in back of the battery (in front of the coolant reservoir).

Apparantly one of the relays had a bad connection, and fixing that solved the problems. Sorry about the confusion- it was for the electronic injection (which I am assuming is the same as the fuel injection pump!)- I am more familiar with old American iron, hence the mechanic working on it not me. However, it did take them weeks to find the problem. They checked the computer, coils, replaced the crankshaft and camshaft sensors, the distributors, etc.

And, I totally understand the frustration- I kept going back and forth about selling it or keeping it, because up to this point I have sunk at least 3500 into the car. Fortunately my parents had extra cars (our trusty '66 Plymouth and '61 Chevy), but I truly missed the power and comfort of the LS, so I decided I had reached the point of no return and kept it..........

[sahtt]

Hey guys- sorry to hear about the problems sahtt is having- as a fellow student, I hear ya' about pouring hard-earned money into the car! Anyway, because I did not personally fix my Ls, I talked to my mechanic about what was wrong with mine (not starting, continually cranking, etc.), and he said it was actually a bad connection in the fuse box in back of the battery (in front of the coolant reservoir).

Apparantly one of the relays had a bad connection, and fixing that solved the problems. Sorry about the confusion- it was for the electronic injection (which I am assuming is the same as the fuel injection pump!)- I am more familiar with old American iron, hence the mechanic working on it not me. However, it did take them weeks to find the problem. They checked the computer, coils, replaced the crankshaft and camshaft sensors, the distributors, etc.

And, I totally understand the frustration- I kept going back and forth about selling it or keeping it, because up to this point I have sunk at least 3500 into the car. Fortunately my parents had extra cars (our trusty '66 Plymouth and '61 Chevy), but I truly missed the power and comfort of the LS, so I decided I had reached the point of no return and kept it..........

I found AustinGT's posts, I didnt' realize there were 2 pages. AustinGT, are you in Austin by chance? I go to UT. I wish I could pay someone to come check all the relays, I basically figured out the entire TB job by myself, but when people start talking about relays etc. I can't physically picture it and its function and can't put the pieces together. I seriously do not want to shell out $100 for a service manual for a car I'm immediately selling.

I have not checked the Harmonic balancer, but I'm assuming the car would not run perfectly after being started if this had failure? It has never stalled out, never even hesitated.

Thanks again for the help, a few encouraging words go a long way when you are at the breaking point.

[AustinGT]

Unfortunately I am not in Austin- although I wouldn't mind it a bit! I am in CA's Central Valley (near Modesto). Austin would be a definite step up from the Valley...maybe for grad school! Anyway, about checking the relays- after getting your IM I checked under the hood and took off the fuse box cover to get an idea what the mechanic was talking about- apparantly one of the connections was bad, so if I were you I would make sure all the relays were properly connected, and see if any of them are blown. I wish I could tell you which one exactly it is, but seeing as I too am reluctant to shell out big bucks for a Lexus manual.......just to make sure I would probably check the fuses/relays on the right side behind the air intake tube, just to cover the bases.

I'm surprised that you are having these problems with only 134k- mine has almost 209k. I was extremely frustrated with the car (it is a Lexus...they are not supposed to do this right!? :cries: ), and I really was about to put it on autotrader.com to sell for a '95 SC300 that went up for sale locally when the LS was fixed (after seven long weeks...and in the middle of a Central Valley summer!)- hang in there!

Not sure if this posted right the first time around, so better twice than not at all!

Unfortunately I am not in Austin- although I wouldn't mind it a bit! I am in CA's Central Valley (near Modesto). Austin would be a definite step up from the Valley...maybe for grad school! Anyway, about checking the relays- after getting your IM I checked under the hood and took off the fuse box cover to get an idea what the mechanic was talking about- apparantly one of the connections was bad, so if I were you I would make sure all the relays were properly connected, and see if any of them are blown. I wish I could tell you which one exactly it is, but seeing as I too am reluctant to shell out big bucks for a Lexus manual.......just to make sure I would probably check the fuses/relays on the right side behind the air intake tube, just to cover the bases.

I'm surprised that you are having these problems with only 134k- mine has almost 209k. I was extremely frustrated with the car (it is a Lexus...they are not supposed to do this right!? ), and I really was about to put it on autotrader.com to sell for a '95 SC300 that went up for sale locally when the LS was fixed (after seven long weeks...and in the middle of a Central Valley summer!)- hang in there!

[nc211]

I had the VIN ran when I first got the car, didn't notice anything about a starter recall, nor was I aware that one existed for this particular application. The starter is not the issue based on the symptoms, as a busted starter just clicks and dies, but considering how much I have cranked the car I'd feel better knowing I had a new one. As far as I know it's the original starter.

The positive terminal was old and warped to the point it wouldn't tighten. I ordered a new one from Sea Well Lexus but you have to rewire it to the new terminal, so I bought an Autozone one and rigged it up. I just have to tighten it every once in a while. Obviously I already checked that sort of stuff. The fuel pump fuses were ok when the car was last checked on two weeks ago. I don't know off hand where they are.

Thanks for you guys' help so far.

The NHTSA doesn't have any recalls on file for the '91. I think the starter issues were for 95 or 96 or both. Fuses and relays are two different animals. ;)

Well, glad I left myself that 1% margin of error....hahahaa... I stand corrected ;)

Ok, back to the question at hand....so wait, you did your entire TB change yourself, with no manuals to guide you and stuff???

[blake918]

I seriously do not want to shell out $100 for a service manual for a car I'm immediately selling.

If you really want a manual, you have options other than buying a hardcopy: http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/intro/repairmanual.html

I sure wish I would have know about those websites before spending almost $200 on the repair manuals for my '95.

Well, glad I left myself that 1% margin of error....hahahaa... I stand corrected ;)

LOL I wonder if my '95 missed the starter recall because my starter wasn't changed until it had 148k miles on it!?!?

Ok, back to the question at hand....so wait, you did your entire TB change yourself, with no manuals to guide you and stuff???

It's not that bad. You basically start at the front and just keep digging and digging until you can access the timing belt. We found that doing the timing belt on your own intuition is far better than going off of the manual (tried each way once) since they have some wacky stuff in the manuals.

[sahtt]

Well another $120 down the drain. I had a mobile mechanic that specializes in this come work on the car from 9-12am this morning. As usual, I knew about as much as he did, if not more. I should have just bought a multi-meter and an all-data membership and at seafood instead of wasting the 120. It wasn't totally the guys fault, because the car kept starting, and made it basically impossible to diagnose. We got the car warm and let it sit for 15 mins, then it wouldn't start. We checked for spark on cylinder #1 and he says he saw some then didn't, I didn't see any at all. However, this is in broad daylight and I didn't have my face 6 inches away so I'm not sure how visible it is. Never the less, when we put the plug back in it started right up. My theory is while we were doing it the car cooled down enough to make whatever issue doesn't let it start warm go away. Still doesn't explain why 2 nights ago it wouldn't start when it was 65 degrees outside.

We double checked a few things including the fuel pump relay and a few connections. All checked out, but during this time the car was able to start so why wouldn't it anyways. Most of the time we were just trying to get the car not to start so we could daignose better. Once it does start, turning it off and then turning it right back on is instant, no excess cranking, just like a brand new car. He double checked the crank sensor wiring and that stuff, all checked out.

It's a crude balance between getting a decent price for the car, not ripping anyone off, and not throwing more money into it [aka down the drain]. I'm double majoring in Economics and Chinese, NOT automotive I DON'T have anymore time for this!!