Best And Worst

[RFeldes]

Follow this link to the 2006 Consumer Reports findings.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?con...023544&src=News

[ZINFANDEL22]

Follow this link to the 2006 Consumer Reports findings.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?con...023544&src=News

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NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED!!Why do american automobile manufacturers keep doing the same thing? Buy american ,buy american, Well I wish I could but I work hard for my money so why through it away?

[oohryry]

Follow this link to the 2006 Consumer Reports findings.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?con...023544&src=News

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NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED!!Why do american automobile manufacturers keep doing the same thing? Buy american ,buy american, Well I wish I could but I work hard for my money so why through it away?

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You said a mouth full. I paid for my Ford Probe twice if you include repairs. And I purchased it brand new. Turned me completely away from Ford anything. I do like the Chevy Trailblazer. Probably the only American car I would purchase. Don't get me wrong, I want to purchase from my country, but hell man, why don't they concentrate on quality and dependability more. Every time my Probe broke down, it broke down. By that I mean, I couldn't drive it at all. My other vehicles had problems rarely, but I could drive them while I save up the money for the repairs.

[hyperopt]

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

[wandawoods]

the thing really puzzling me is why folks still keep on spending big bucks on those European luxuries knowing they have been on the "least reliable" list year after year?! OMG, the entire line of mercedes are on it vs entire line of Lex cars are on the "most reliable"

must be the "itch" thing...I am so glad that I am out of the mercedes' itches after owning 2 disastrous S-class few years back!

[Jacob]

What really amazes me is that Lexus has almost all of its vehicles in the most reliable list— there are lots of Hondas in the same list but no Acuras… It seems that Toyota is the only car manufacturer that knows how to make a car that's luxurious and reliable at the same time. Also, amazing is that Nissan has some of the most and least reliable vehicles.

[RFeldes]

Good Observastion Jacob!!!

[branshew]

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

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I read heard on NPR this week that according to JD Power - American cars are about even with the !Removed! in first year reliability, but everything falls apart shortly after.

It's good to see tht they are getting better in terms of reliability. Now if we could just get an American company to come up with an appealing design idea or two.....

[ZINFANDEL22]

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

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I read heard on NPR this week that according to JD Power - American cars are about even with the !Removed! in first year reliability, but everything falls apart shortly after.

It's good to see tht they are getting better in terms of reliability. Now if we could just get an American company to come up with an appealing design idea or two.....

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LOL, Yes it be nice to know that after the warranty expires and maybe after its actually paid for you could enjoy an american vehichle with only normal maintenance. Well one year at a time mayber is better than nothing..lol

[jc19907]

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

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I read heard on NPR this week that according to JD Power - American cars are about even with the !Removed! in first year reliability, but everything falls apart shortly after.

It's good to see tht they are getting better in terms of reliability. Now if we could just get an American company to come up with an appealing design idea or two.....

←

LOL, Yes it be nice to know that after the warranty expires and maybe after its actually paid for you could enjoy an american vehichle with only normal maintenance. Well one year at a time mayber is better than nothing..lol

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Not to play spoiler or anything - but obviously domestic products cost a heck of a lot more to produce. The main Ford truck plant is in my hometown. Many of their employees are knocking down 70-100K per year and have benefits like crazy. Hard working folks deserve good pay and folks have to stick with the design, so GM, Ford etc. have to compromise somewhere, so it might as well be parts, nuts and bolts, cowlings, fittings etc. I owned a 2000 Ford Taurus and I bet I took it to the dealer 6 times my first year of ownership. My hood broke, my door handle, the fan blower, the ignition went out, the alarm locked the whole electrical system down. I traded it in on my Lexus - a GI-normous improvement. When you pay folks 2 bucks a day to build your cars, I guess you can afford to put more into engineering quality and parts. Lastly, I think high end Asian cars are probably overbuilt to prove their reliability for long term growth. Lexus, Infinity and Acura are all about 15 years old. These automakers are looking to establish a quick reputation of quality; this all to ensure longterm success. And, that they have done. You couldn't do that by building ... 2cts

[nc211]

The flaws are not in the manufacturing stage, they're in the designing stage. So I agree, and respectfully disagree with your post. Asian culture puts a ton of emphasise on getting it perfect the first time, as were American emphasise is the same, but polluted with the "we expect glitches and we'll fix them as they come". Many asian cars are actually built here in the states by those same Union boys and girls that build those fords and so forth. Nissan is in Tenn, Hyndai is in Bama', Benz is in Bama' too, and several others. It's in the design....not in the manufacturing stage that create the flaws. Many years ago there was an internal industry debate between automakers on what worked best, what worked worst. European automakers barked at the theory of 3 piece frame. They've stuck with the same frame for several car models...not one frame for one model. Then all of the sudden Chrystler get's their hands on Benz....and well....you know the rest. It's in the design....not in the construction. If you design crap....you build crap. All costs aside. As GM is learning the hard way...designing cheap = costs more to keep.

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

←

I read heard on NPR this week that according to JD Power - American cars are about even with the !Removed! in first year reliability, but everything falls apart shortly after.

It's good to see tht they are getting better in terms of reliability. Now if we could just get an American company to come up with an appealing design idea or two.....

←

LOL, Yes it be nice to know that after the warranty expires and maybe after its actually paid for you could enjoy an american vehichle with only normal maintenance. Well one year at a time mayber is better than nothing..lol

←

Not to play spoiler or anything - but obviously domestic products cost a heck of a lot more to produce. The main Ford truck plant is in my hometown. Many of their employees are knocking down 70-100K per year and have benefits like crazy. Hard working folks deserve good pay and folks have to stick with the design, so GM, Ford etc. have to compromise somewhere, so it might as well be parts, nuts and bolts, cowlings, fittings etc. I owned a 2000 Ford Taurus and I bet I took it to the dealer 6 times my first year of ownership. My hood broke, my door handle, the fan blower, the ignition went out, the alarm locked the whole electrical system down. I traded it in on my Lexus - a GI-normous improvement. When you pay folks 2 bucks a day to build your cars, I guess you can afford to put more into engineering quality and parts. Lastly, I think high end Asian cars are probably overbuilt to prove their reliability for long term growth. Lexus, Infinity and Acura are all about 15 years old. These automakers are looking to establish a quick reputation of quality; this all to ensure longterm success. And, that they have done. You couldn't do that by building ... 2cts

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[jc19907]

The flaws are not in the manufacturing stage, they're in the designing stage. So I agree, and respectfully disagree with your post. Asian culture puts a ton of emphasise on getting it perfect the first time, as were American emphasise is the same, but polluted with the "we expect glitches and we'll fix them as they come". Many asian cars are actually built here in the states by those same Union boys and girls that build those fords and so forth. Nissan is in Tenn, Hyndai is in Bama', Benz is in Bama' too, and several others. It's in the design....not in the manufacturing stage that create the flaws. Many years ago there was an internal industry debate between automakers on what worked best, what worked worst. European automakers barked at the theory of 3 piece frame. They've stuck with the same frame for several car models...not one frame for one model. Then all of the sudden Chrystler get's their hands on Benz....and well....you know the rest. It's in the design....not in the construction. If you design crap....you build crap. All costs aside. As GM is learning the hard way...designing cheap = costs more to keep.

NC,

If you read my post carefully, I do suggest and I quote "and folks have to stick with the design" so, I agree it's not in the manufacturing. I'm also aware of the various plants in the USA who assemble some of the Asian cars and that is a good point; However to add to the point, Lexus, Toyota, etc have far superior components that are mainly Asian made and those components are imported to assembly plants. From alternators to turn signals. Now, I know that American Automakers are using foreign parts too - but the parts and service industry are also a mulit -bil set up too. So why not design stuff to fail - capitalism at its finest. It's all about the dollar baby. Fully agree!

Domestic car reliability has been improving and last year (after 25+ years of trying) domestics surpass Europeans in terms of reliabitity, but still not good enough for me to put one in my garage.

←

I read heard on NPR this week that according to JD Power - American cars are about even with the !Removed! in first year reliability, but everything falls apart shortly after.

It's good to see tht they are getting better in terms of reliability. Now if we could just get an American company to come up with an appealing design idea or two.....

←

LOL, Yes it be nice to know that after the warranty expires and maybe after its actually paid for you could enjoy an american vehichle with only normal maintenance. Well one year at a time mayber is better than nothing..lol

←

Not to play spoiler or anything - but obviously domestic products cost a heck of a lot more to produce. The main Ford truck plant is in my hometown. Many of their employees are knocking down 70-100K per year and have benefits like crazy. Hard working folks deserve good pay and folks have to stick with the design, so GM, Ford etc. have to compromise somewhere, so it might as well be parts, nuts and bolts, cowlings, fittings etc. I owned a 2000 Ford Taurus and I bet I took it to the dealer 6 times my first year of ownership. My hood broke, my door handle, the fan blower, the ignition went out, the alarm locked the whole electrical system down. I traded it in on my Lexus - a GI-normous improvement. When you pay folks 2 bucks a day to build your cars, I guess you can afford to put more into engineering quality and parts. Lastly, I think high end Asian cars are probably overbuilt to prove their reliability for long term growth. Lexus, Infinity and Acura are all about 15 years old. These automakers are looking to establish a quick reputation of quality; this all to ensure longterm success. And, that they have done. You couldn't do that by building ... 2cts

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[nc211]

Wow ...where did this new interface come from???? NICE SET UP LOC! Me likey! It was my recent $50 Gold membership deposit that did it right? Come on, don't lie ;)

Man, we gotta stop all of this reply with the other's dude's quotes...I get lost in the details. Hahaha. JC...it's all good man. I agree with ya'!

[hyperopt]

I traded it in on my Lexus - a GI-normous improvement. When you pay folks 2 bucks a day to build your cars, I guess you can afford to put more into engineering quality and parts.

Judging the cost of living in Japan vs. USA, I don't think they pay anywhere near $2/hr for folks in Japan.

Both design and manufacturing are critical for long term performance. Back more than a decade ago, Nissan trucks had problems with some of their transmissions and it turned out the majority of those transmissions were built in the USA. When they compared same model transmissions that were built in USA vs. those that were built in Japan, they found that machine parts from USA had poorer tolerance than from Japan, which led to premature breakdown.

[jc19907]

I traded it in on my Lexus - a GI-normous improvement. When you pay folks 2 bucks a day to build your cars, I guess you can afford to put more into engineering quality and parts.

Judging the cost of living in Japan vs. USA, I don't think they pay anywhere near $2/hr for folks in Japan.

Both design and manufacturing are critical for long term performance. Back more than a decade ago, Nissan trucks had problems with some of their transmissions and it turned out the majority of those transmissions were built in the USA. When they compared same model transmissions that were built in USA vs. those that were built in Japan, they found that machine parts from USA had poorer tolerance than from Japan, which led to premature breakdown.

OK peeps,

To clear up any more confusion. And, I was embellishing a-bit on the 2$/hour. My point and opinion is:

After owning a brand new American Car - My ownership experience was riddled with trips to the dealer.

Hence, not a good experience. Now for the point - The USA designs many products to fail. Period. This creates jobs and ultimately generates more business elsewhere (did I say tax revenues too). And, !Removed! outsource their products to third world countries for many of the components that make up their products. It's that simple. When you call your bank for service, or your IT service provider, who do you talk to and where are they? People are the most expensive part of concept, design, manufacturing and just about everything else. If you can get'em cheaper to process any of the parts of an equation, all without sacrificing quality of materials and design you'll end up with the Lexus of whatever you buy. Peace.

[hyperopt]

Now for the point - The USA designs many products to fail. Period. This creates jobs and ultimately generates more business elsewhere (did I say tax revenues too).

That is unwise business practice in long terms as failed products will return to haunt the producers, and if your opinions are correct, such business would not survive for long. Fair minded consumers will quickly know which products are good and which to stay away from. GM and Ford has been producing automobiles for a long long time. Their cars were once great but then they faltered and recently regained some ground and now they are in deep red inching closer to bankruptcy. Rather than creating jobs and generating more businesses, GM have plans to layoff thousands, closing plants, and ditching pensions and Ford will soon follow.

[jainla]

I would argue that Toyota's manufacturing is inherently superior to most American manufacturing (along with design also being superior).

In the late 1970's and early 80's Toyota realized that Japan's population was aging. They knew that their supply of future labor would be limited, and increasingly expensive. It was decided to invest a tremendous amount of time and money to automate parts of the manufacturing process. They built a new plant near Tahara that made unprecedented use of robots and automation to perform repetitive, tedious (and hence error-prone) tasks. This would free the expensive, scarce (and highly trained) human laborer to do things that robots could not, namely intricate assembly operations, troubleshooting and quality inspection. Many in the industry thought that Toyota had gone overboard, and that they would never recoup their investment. This is the plant that produces the LS400/430, SC430 and several Toyota models. It regularly wins quality awards as having the highest quality products and most efficient manufacturing system in the world. This manufacturing system has spread to other plants in Japan and abroad, even here in the US.

This high degree of automation would probably not be possible for GM and Ford (certainly not at that time) because it would mean, initially eliminating jobs. I doubt the UAW would take too kindly to that. Now Toyota has a 30 year head start in robotic assembly and can focus time and energy in creating more manufacturing innovations instead of playing catch-up like US manufacturers.

Toyota also has higher standards for parts suppliers for Lexus models than for regular models. Toyota requires suppliers to have a defect rate of one per million parts. Lexus models allow one defect per 10 million. Ten Million. Yes they may be produced in Malaysia or wherever but the boats do come over here too you know. But wait, that means Delphi workers might be out of a job.

While Japan and Europe have some advantages with their state run health systems, we're talking a max of $1500 a car here. Maybe if Ford and GM weren't giving away $6k in incentives per car this shortfall would be surmountable. I think decades of labor and management butting heads has finally done GM and Ford in. They are in real trouble, and hopefully the union leadership and management can work together to improve the design and manufacturing process to create quality products. Either that or they are all out of a job.

The name of the game in the car business is that you have to get the product right. Chrysler has had great success recently, so it's not like the Americans can't hack it.

Toyota is a company (still) run by engineers. GM has ceded control to the bean counters. Guess who designs and produces quality products?

[SRK]

To clear up a bit more confusion, consider reading David Halberstam's book "The Reckoning" about the rise and fall of US and Japanese auto manufacturing.

In short, the Japanese adopted, and revered the statistical analysis and total production methods outlined by an American, W. Edwards Deming, in the early fifties, while US car makers ignored him. Lexus cars are a result of forty years of following Demings processes. It is a cross-cultural, international, and independantly achievable means of manufacturing, which means that US workers can make Japanese cars as well as the Japanese. It is the manufacturing system (which includes the design process integrally) which produces such cars.

Of course even the Japanese fail in this regard sometimes, and it is well to remember that. Consider the Suzuki X-90, or the early eighties Datsuns, or the Subaru SVX, or any number of still born or orphan Japanese cars. Mitsubishi has lost their way lately, as even the Japanese won't buy them.

The Koreans have adopted Japanese ( in other words Deming's) manufacturing dictates. I am sure the Chinese will as well.

The new Corvette may be the closest achievement in this style of manufacturing yet seen by the domestics. Unfortunately for GM, there is no profit in those cars. Toyota will surpass GM within 18 months as the world's leading auto manufacturer.

Nothing is perfect. It is just a matter of percentages. Toyota demands a failure rate of something like 20 parts per million from their subcontractors. In the early seventies Lucas of England admitted that their component failure rate was 7 percent. Laughable, if it weren't so sad. And people still buy Jags. Go figure.

[ZINFANDEL22]

Wow ...where did this new interface come from???? NICE SET UP LOC! Me likey! It was my recent $50 Gold membership deposit that did it right? Come on, don't lie ;)

Man, we gotta stop all of this reply with the other's dude's quotes...I get lost in the details. Hahaha. JC...it's all good man. I agree with ya'!

Now this it what I like a guy with a sence of humor keep it up nc211

[90LS400Lexus]

Yeah, most American models have become more reliable than they were in the 90s, but still have a good way to go.

The last of the "real" or good Mercedes was in the early 90s. After 1991, they declined rapidly, as far as the reliability went. Structurally, they have always been built like bank vaults, but when I say declined, I am talking about the mechanicals/reliability of the cars. I cannot say the same for BMW. Even the 80s models of those seem to have MAJOR issues, especially electrical. Mercedes of the 80s is superior to BMW.

The last year for the good S-Class was 1991. 1992+ models were/are horrible. The last good E-Class was around 1990. 93' was the last year for the good "baby" Mercedes (190E). The redesigned 1994 C-Class - another major dissapointment.

The newer (92'-05) Mercedes should not be confused or evaluated with the 91' and older models. I have a 1985 Mercedes 380SE (shorter wheelbase S-Class sedan - the 500SEL was the longer wheelbase), that seems to be a very good car. These were when they were still building good cars. My car has 263,900 miles and still runs and drives perfectly. No oil leaks and NO oil burning/usage. Tranny still fine too. As far as the electrical goes, also, very good. My only issue is two windows do not work, and my "anti-lock" warning light is illuminated, which I think is minor- not bad for a 20 year old car. In many ways, it is much better than my 90' LS400 with 240K was. No original radio problems, no A/C problems, no dash lights on the fritz, no LCD on the fritz, no clunking suspension, no vibrations- all problems that my "1-owner" LS400 had. That is not to say this Mercedes is perfect, its not- it is 20 years old and I know cars vary from owner to owner, but this is just an example. Also, the ride is softer, but the steering is more precise. So far, I am very pleased with the car (until something breaks and it costs big bucks to repair :D). Yeah, they had their trouble spots too! On the 81-85 S-Class sedans- the trouble spots range from window switches that can corrode and need cleaning and something in the climate control goes bad and the air will only come out of the defroster, no matter the setting. Luckily, my car only has the window problem at this time. Also, this model is old enough to where it is still easily servicable. Everything in the engine compartment has east access, save for the A/C compressor, which is in a bad spot. My only concern about this car are the chain rails. The timing chain/tensioner on these cars will make a rattle when they need replaced- which is a $550 replacement at one of our local MB independent repair shops. It is imperative that you do not have a worn chain/tensioner, because if it breaks, the engine is destroyed, because this is an interference engine. Not a big deal as far as price of the chain/tensioner replacement. It is recommended to change every 100,000 miles. What is not scheduled to change are the upper rails and chain guides, which can also break after so many miles/years. While it is not 100% to throw off the timing chain if these break, because they may not get caught in the chain, but if parts of them do, it is bye-bye pistons/rods. Replacement for these is much more expensive. My chain sounds fine (no noise), but I have no idea if the rails/guides were replaced. Since the car is so old and I paid so little, it would probably not be worth the $1000+ for me to change those, because it is possible that they were changed before. I guess I will take my chances and not worry about it. If they break, then the car will be nothing more than a parts car, unless someone has a good engine out of a crashed car to put in. Hopefully I will never have to worry about that.

I just wish I knew more about it, such as what certain things have to be done to these cars. I have read that MB anti-freeze should be the only anti-freeze used, because the green anti-freeze can corrode the unit and only MB tranny fluid used, etc. So when I do maintainence, I am weary about using the typical things you can buy in the auto parts store or Wal-Mart. Also, the oil filter is the type that is inside a canister and you have to change the element inside the canister- which appears to be very simple actually.

It was interesting though to see some Japanese makes on the "least reliable" list. Nissan Titan was one. I remember back in the 80s and early 90s when most Nissans were in the most reliable list. ;)

What really amazes me is that Lexus has almost all of its vehicles in the most reliable list— there are lots of Hondas in the same list but no Acuras… It seems that Toyota is the only car manufacturer that knows how to make a car that's luxurious and reliable at the same time. Also, amazing is that Nissan has some of the most and least reliable vehicles.

[jschunke]

The totally redesigned Cobalt is at the bottom!

GM is history.

[ko90ls]

i got one for you... Cadillac, the premiere luxury car of america (ask any U.S. president), sells it's "flagship" the new redesigned DTS for a whopping 41,990! so what? well their other model, the STS v6 starts at 41,740. $160 seperates a base v6, from a base v8, but the STS also has more available options? and what is up with honda/acura? acura only has one model with wood grain (RL) and the wood grain wheel is optional? personally i think that honda's bread and butter is in it's "honda" line and the acura thing is just for the RSX and to sell cars that wouldn't sell in japan. what's honda known for? reliability. and what's acura known for? honda reliability! check out some used car adds, "USED ACURA! HONDA RELIABILITY!" they know what they're doing; cheaper cars, more sells!