Incredible Official Lexus Disclaimer. What To Do?

[AZKS]

I picked up my new 2005 ES330 Lexus at the dealer yesterday. Drove it home 100 miles. No problems except controls are hard to learn.

Now that the die is cast, I decided to weed out my voluminous file of literature, Consumer Reports, etc. Discovered to my amazement the following incredible small print in the back of a huge glossy official Lexus ES330 brochure I had gotten weeks ago from another dealer but hadn't studied carefully:

"Disclaimers

1. Tires fitted with 17-in wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires. Tire life may be substantially less than 20,000 miles, depending on driving conditions."

Now, I hadn't wanted the fancy 17-in wheel option in the first place but took it only because the salesman said every car shipped to the US came in that way and that if I wanted the standard 16-in wheels I would have to wait four to six months for a car to be specially built and shipped from Japan.

The above disclaimer seems to mean that, in addition to practially ramming an unwanted option down its customers' throats, Lexus puts them into a situation where tires won't last usual maybe 60,000 or 70,000 miles (my experience--I'm a cautious driver). Instead Lexus ES330 owners can look forward to expensively replacing all the tires maybe every 10,000 miles (what else do they mean when they say "...life may be SUBSTANTIALLY less than 20,000 miles..."?!!!

Any suggestions about what to do about this apparently insane situation?

[sonewsy]

I picked up my new 2005 ES330 Lexus at the dealer yesterday.  Drove it home 100 miles.  No problems except controls are hard to learn. 

Now that the die is cast, I decided to weed out my voluminous file of literature, Consumer Reports, etc.  Discovered to my amazement the following incredible small print in the back of a huge glossy official Lexus ES330 brochure I had gotten weeks ago from another dealer but hadn't studied carefully:

"Disclaimers

1. Tires fitted with 17-in wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires.  Tire life may be substantially less than 20,000 miles, depending on driving conditions."

Now, I hadn't wanted the fancy 17-in wheel option in the first place but took it only because the salesman said every car shipped to the US came in that way and that if I wanted the standard 16-in wheels I would have to wait four to six months for a car to be specially built and shipped from Japan. 

The above disclaimer seems to mean that, in addition to practially ramming an unwanted option down its customers' throats, Lexus puts them into a situation where tires won't last usual maybe 60,000 or 70,000 miles (my experience--I'm a cautious driver).  Instead Lexus ES330 owners can look forward to expensively replacing all the tires maybe every 10,000 miles (what else do they mean when they say "...life may be SUBSTANTIALLY less than 20,000 miles..."?!!!

Any suggestions about what to do about this apparently insane situation?

←

When I bought my 2005 in December every new ES model in the showroom had a sticker on the window saying the tires could last less than 20,000 miles.

Surprised, I asked about it and the info was confirmed. So I knew going into it what the deal was. I don't know why your dealer didn't alert you.

[SW03ES]

Don't feel bad, Lexus puts terrible tires on their cars and even the tires that come on the 16" wheels (well, most of them) last less than 20k also. I personally think the 17" wheels, while they do look better, make the car ride harder and create more road noise. I drove an 05 and it seemed firmer and louder than my 03.

Thats beside the point though. First of all go look at the tires, and tell me what brand and model they are. There's no inherant reason why the 17s dont last as long as the 16s, its just that Lexus uses several different brands of tires, Michelins which have a pretty long life, and Dunlops and Bridgestones that...well don't. Its basically just a "cover their butts" deal.

I would have required that the dealer swap the 17s with the 16s on an older ES on their lot.

You will find though that NO tires for these cars will last 60-70k miles. The tires that last that long are low speed rated touring tires that are loud and give a poor ride. The Ultra High Performance and Touring tires these cars are designed for don't last that long at all, 30k is good long life. Its just part of driving this type of car.

[steviej]

AZKS,

my 2002 ES came with 16 inch v-rated Bridgestones and they didn't make it past 24,000 miles, but the ride was smooth and very very quiet. If you dirve as you say you do, then you will have no problem getting at least 30,000 miles if not more from the 17 inch tires on the car. You can always post the wheels up on eBay. They will go quickly. You will also be able to find new 16 inche OEM Lexus wheels and tires there too.

Lastly, it is not just Lexus. I have noticed these disclaimers on other manufacturers that equip vehicles with high performance tires, too.

steviej

[1990LS400]

Our V6 Camry came with the same wheel and tire size that the ES had in the same model year and we got more than 60,000 miles from its OEM Dunlop SP4000's. The OEM SP4000's on our 00 LS lasted over 40,000 miles.

The tires on your 17" wheels will likely last far longer than 20,000 miles. Use a digital tire gauge, check the pressure weekly, keep them close to the recommended pressure, and don't drive (all the time) like a bat-out-a-hell. Don't worry and just enjoy your ES and those 17" wheels!

That 20,000 miles disclaimer could be related to the class action suit in the early 90's where Lexus reimbursed 100,000+ LS400 owners, me included, for the premature wearing (more like a melt-down) of OEM Goodyear Eagle GA's.

[AZKS]

To: SW03ES

Many thanks for your kind help on my problem with Lexus announcing I shouldn't expect over 10,000 or 20,000 miles from my new tires (on my new ES330). (Thanks to the other discussants too.)

I looked at my new tires. They are Bridgestone Turanza EL42. I gather this is bad news. (I had engaged in a few minutes of sparring with the salesman wherein I asked for 17-in Michelins and he said it couldn't be done, all the tires Lexus supplies are as good as Michelins, etc, etc. I see now I should have been more aggressive but the price was good, I foolishly believed him...)

I have been driving since 1938 and I thought I knew something about tires. Back then, 30,000 miles was decent mileage out of a tire. I noticed the life getting longer every time I changed tires, with the greatest gain after I started using Michelin X radial tires which were a big leap forward not only in durability but in reliability. 70,000 or more miles eventually became common. I keep cars a long time. I still have a 1986 Audi 5000 in use as a second car on only its second set of Michelins. And a 1995 Infiniti I30 on its second set of Michelins. Both near or beyond 100,000 miles. Buying tires has always been a no-brainer; I just ask for the best Michelins. And they always last 70,000 or so. I had been under the impression Lexus was competing with Infiniti on reliability, so I am thunder-struck that they would put lousy tires on their cars. It just doesn't fit in with both their philosophies of carefree driving: free road service, few defects, reliability, etc.

Maybe I need a course on tires. (Anyone have ten seconds to spare?) Does a Lexus somehow require a special high-speed tire that is very quiet and offers a soft ride? Or is such a special tire what they think the kind of person who buys a Lexus demands? (Why would Lexus customers be different from, say, Infiniti customers?) My Infiniti, with its quiet engine and heavily-gasketed doors and windows, is the quietist car I have ever owned. And the ride is surely soft enough. Basically, all I want is a car that is reliable and trouble free, like my Infiniti is--to this day. Fragile tires that will go flat somewhere is the exact opposite of what I was looking for. Despite all my research, there seems to have been a failure of communications.

I put about 10,000 miles a year on my main car. Almost all of it results from almost-weekly 200-mile (100 miles each way) trips between homes. Most of it is by expressway at 60 to 75 mph. The Infiniti annd Michelins have been perfect for this service. I still don't understand what more the "high-speed" Lexus-type tires are supposed to do for me to make me put up with the short life.

Despite your suggestion, I don't see myself getting involved with ebay to sell and ship tires and wheels. Not at this point in my life. More likely, I will wait until these 17-in Bridgestones have gone 20,000 miles then try to trade the 17-in fancy Lexus wheels for 16-in plain Lexus wheels and mount the most suitable Michelins I can buy. Any suggestions as to what those might be? Any downside to my plan?

[SW03ES]

First of all, you've got to take a deep breath and relax. They're just tires, no one is saying they're going to go flat anywhere, the disclaimer is only to say that the tread may wear away before 20k miles. $500 gets you a set of brand new tires in whatever brand or description that you may want. Doesn't have anything to do with the reliability of the car.

The Bridgestone tires on your car aren't fantastic. No need to sell the wheels though, the Michelin MXV4 line (which also comes on the ES) come in that size so you can just replace the tires when they wear out with a set of tires with a longer treadwear warranty. The dealer isn't going to take your wheels as a trade anyways. The wheel size doesn't really make a difference in tread life.

One thing to be aware of though, for some reason Lexus vehicles are more reliant on their tires to supply their smooth ride than something like a Lincoln, I have no idea about Infiniti. So, you want to shop for tires looking more carefully at things like smooth and quiet ride. Usually smooth and quiet ride are a tradeoff with treadwear (but not always)

Our V6 Camry came with the same wheel and tire size that the ES had in the same model year and we got more than 60,000 miles from its OEM Dunlop SP4000's. The OEM SP4000's on our 00 LS lasted over 40,000 miles.

Jim- My dad had the 4000s on his 98 LS too when it was new and again as a new set and had similar experience. Unfortunately the 4000s are getting very hard to find and have been all but replaced with the 5000s which have MUCH shorter treadlife.

[monarch]

Instead Lexus ES330 owners can look forward to expensively replacing all the tires maybe every 10,000 miles (what else do they mean when they say "...life may be SUBSTANTIALLY less than 20,000 miles..."?!!! Any suggestions about what to do about this apparently insane situation?

←

The ES330 brochure says (capitals my emphasis) : "Tires fitted with 17 inch wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires. Tire life MAY be substantially less than 20,000 miles, DEPENDING ON DRIVING CONDITIONS.

Solutions are simple:

1. Rotate your tires every 5000 miles. Since you are a conservative driver, you may

get 30,000 miles of life or more if you keep up with the rotations.

2. When tire replacement is necessary, simply buy a long wearing all season tire in the

215/55VR17 tire size and you may get around 50,000 miles of tire life if you keep up with the 5000 mile rotations.

Ultimate solution: Get 16" wheels on ebay and then sell your 17" on ebay

The Lexus salesmen lied to you if he really said all ES330's come to the USA with 17" wheels. Lots come here with 16's. Always remember a Lexus dealer is run by Americans, not the Japanese and there's nothing corporate Lexus can do to change our American automotive industry culture which has always included a number of liers, cheaters and manipulators.

[sonewsy]

Instead Lexus ES330 owners can look forward to expensively replacing all the tires maybe every 10,000 miles (what else do they mean when they say "...life may be SUBSTANTIALLY less than 20,000 miles..."?!!! Any suggestions about what to do about this apparently insane situation?

←

The ES330 brochure says (capitals my emphasis) : "Tires fitted with 17 inch wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires. Tire life MAY be substantially less than 20,000 miles, DEPENDING ON DRIVING CONDITIONS.

Solutions are simple:

1. Rotate your tires every 5000 miles. Since you are a conservative driver, you may

get 30,000 miles of life or more if you keep up with the rotations.

2. When tire replacement is necessary, simply buy a long wearing all season tire in the

215/55VR17 tire size and you may get around 50,000 miles of tire life if you keep up with the 5000 mile rotations.

Ultimate solution: Get 16" wheels on ebay and then sell your 17" on ebay

The Lexus salesmen lied to you if he really said all ES330's come to the USA with 17" wheels. Lots come here with 16's. Always remember a Lexus dealer is run by Americans, not the Japanese and there's nothing corporate Lexus can do to change our American automotive industry culture which has always included a number of liers, cheaters and manipulators.

←

For what it's worth, since you just purchased the car, see if your dealer will swap out your tires for the Michelins. My dealer did it for me after three weeks at no charge. Just stamped "Goodwill" on my paperwork. :D

[SW03ES]

Monarch- Actually no, 99% of 05 ES that come to the east coast ship with the 17" wheels. I've never seen one without them. Remember you live in CA he lives in NY, the packages are totally different.

[jragosta]

You will find though that NO tires for these cars will last 60-70k miles. The tires that last that long are low speed rated touring tires that are loud and give a poor ride. The Ultra High Performance and Touring tires these cars are designed for don't last that long at all, 30k is good long life. Its just part of driving this type of car.

←

I don't know about 60-70, but 30 seems too low. I have 22 K on my 04 ES330 and the tires still look great (9/16 left if I remember correctly). I should easily go past 40 K.

I'd check which tires I have, but the car's still in the shop.

[chuckb]

to me. 20k miles on tires is great. I have never gone past 25k on a set. and my 95 ES w/15s chews through tires in 12-15k, especially fronts

[SW03ES]

It depends on how you drive too. My dad has never had over 25k on a set of tires, on his 98 LS with 16s or his 04 LS with 17s and my last set died at 22k.

[jragosta]

to me. 20k miles on tires is great. I have never gone past 25k on a set. and my 95 ES w/15s chews through tires in 12-15k, especially fronts

←

Amazing. That sounds like something's wrong.

I'm a very aggressive driver (at least according to my wife and I'd probably have to agree). Rapid starts (but not burning rubber), aggressive lane changes, fast braking. Yet I'm guessing that I'll end up close to 35 K before changing.

Of course, that ignores the effect of tire type. I think mine are slightly harsh and noisy (Bridgestone Turanza ER30--stock tires on my ES330). When I replace them, I'll replace them with something softer and quieter, so I guess I can expect my mileage to drop then.

[AZKS]

to me. 20k miles on tires is great. I have never gone past 25k on a set. and my 95 ES w/15s chews through tires in 12-15k, especially fronts

←

Amazing. That sounds like something's wrong.

I'm a very aggressive driver (at least according to my wife and I'd probably have to agree). Rapid starts (but not burning rubber), aggressive lane changes, fast braking. Yet I'm guessing that I'll end up close to 35 K before changing.

Of course, that ignores the effect of tire type. I think mine are slightly harsh and noisy (Bridgestone Turanza ER30--stock tires on my ES330). When I replace them, I'll replace them with something softer and quieter, so I guess I can expect my mileage to drop then.

←

[AZKS]

The latest on the tire problem on my brand-new ES330: the Lexus salesman phoned yesterday to ask how everything was. I told him about Lexus's incredible disclaimer that with the 17" wheel option, I should expect tire life of substantially less than 20,000 miles. He didn't seem to know anything about it. I told him I wanted them to substitute 16" wheels and tires. He said he'd have to check with the "managers". I haven't told him yet that I found a website called The Tire Rack that lists reviews of many tires by hundreds of users. My Bridgestone Turanza EL42 is listed under "Standard Touring All-Season". It is number 30 out of 32 (almost the worst). Out of a possible 10, only 2.4 said they would buy it again. A sampling of reviews shows mostly terrible comments (though there were a few people who were satisfied). Interestingly, number 1 was BF Goodrich Traction T/A T. 8.8 would buy it again.

Any thoughts on how I should proceed with the dealer or with Lexus?

[monarch]

For several years the Bridgestone EL42 has been standard equipment on a number of high quality Japanese cars like the Infiiniti G35, Nissan Altima and Mitisubishi Galant to name a few. 30,000 miles of tread life is possible http://www.epinions.com/pr-Tires-Bridgesto...isplay_~reviews

So I think you are making a big deal over nothing. Simply rotate your tires every 5,000 miles for long treadlife just as you would need to with any other tire.

[Unlisted]

if it said they were good for 30,000 miles that would still be a similiar post. It depends on the proper maintanance and rotation.