Gumart1 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I just discovered the forum yesterday and have already read nearly 100 pages of posts! Thank you all for your amazing contributions. Here is my dilemna: I have been following a 1990 LS400 (manufactured July 1990) with only 101k miles on it. No air suspension or Nakamichi but does have Trac Ctrl. It has been for sale with a local Dealer. I have checked the VIN and the car is clean with 2 owners. I also received a faxed maintenance history by Lexus, and ALL the services have been done at the correct intervals, including the 30, 60, and 90k services with timing belt/water pump. Also, the power steering pump was just changed by the Dealer when they acquired the car. This was the second time the PS Pump was replaced. The tires (Dunlops SP60's I think, look new). The body and paint are near perfect, and the interior looks great, minor wear on one part of the driver's seat, and slight stains on the floor mats. Also the seats are in good shape but feel hard in the leather and a bit too firm perhaps. (Amazingly, all the LCD's and backlight needles seem to work fine (32 degrees out). Everything seems to work except the 2 seat position presets, and I need hood shocks (cheap). Now, here is what is wrong: When I drive it, I hear several things. First is that all too common crunch from the front end which I believe to be bushings or lower ball joints. But the car is vibrating at around 35-40mpg, also makes a louder rumble when I start to brake at this speed. I was not able to test the car on a road more than 50mph. The vibration and noise scare me. The Dealer actually made a comment that in the last 2 weeks on his lot, the car seems to be falling apart, that the suspension noise and hood struts happened in the last couple of weeks, and that if I buy it, it will be as-is. The dealer is a Chevrolet dealer but they also own the Lexus dealer that inspected it and replaced the PS Pump upon arrival. I want to believe they reconditioned the car and just couldn't sell it. The dealer has told me he will sell the car for $4500 as-is, I have already offered $3800, but he tells me that $4500 is the absolute lowest and if he doesn't get that price, the car is scheduled to be wholesaled on Friday morning. Finally my question (I'll get better at this), is: Is the car worth the $4500, without knowing exactly what is wrong with the suspension, or whatever is wrong? I sure don't want to get it at this price and be stuck with $3,000 in repairs immediately. Also, do you think the Dealer can actually get this price from the wholesalers? I want to bargain, but I don't think he will budge. By the way, the car was advertised for over a month from this dealer at $8,000, which is ridicuous, so maybe $4500 is a steal? I can't seem to find any that look this good cosmetically and have the low miles anywhere near this price. Are the suspension/braking issues no big deal? Any advice would be greatly appeciated. Sorry for the ramblings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandawoods Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 .... the car is vibrating at around 35-40mpg, also makes a louder rumble when I start to brake at this speed. I was not able to test the car on a road more than 50mph..... vibrating at 35~40mph can just be tire alignment is off. don't know about the 'rumble'?! was it me, I would have the dealer to do a alignment (rather cheap!) then test drive again. it would also be better to ask dealer's permission whether you could drive the car to a 3rd party shop to have a complete inspection of brake and suspension..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KY350 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Don't feel pressured to buy this car. It could have a lot of hidden mechanical issues. As WW suggested, get the car checked out by a reputable independant mechanic to get the good oil on repairs and associated costs if you buy the thing. As far a your offer of $3.8K, don't go higher than this. Remember that the dealer is the one struggling to get a buyer for this vehicle, so no need for you to stat getting desperate and increasing your bids. If your mechanical inspection reveals $1000 in repairs, you use this to justify your offer - not pay more for the car. Finally, in future, never make an offer on a car that you do not know is mechanically sound. Because now the dealer knows that you are prepared to pay $3800, even if you need to do $3k worth of repairs - you have given away your negotiation and revealed the price that you are prepared to pay for the car. Now the dealer knows you will pay at least $3800 and will attempt to stretch you even higher, even if the car needs many repairs. Remember, the dealer is out there to make a profit, not sell you a bargain. If the dealer sell the car to a wholesaler, he will get less than your $3800 offer, so your offer is looking quite good to him now in the absence of any other offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovlex Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 could be the brake rotors also causing the vibe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasLexus94 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 When I took a 94LS for a test drive a year ago, I experienced the same concern about rumbling in the front end at 40 mph, and the uneven brake pedal upon stopping. I took a chance, and bought the car. The first thing I did was have the wheels balanced and rotated. This took care of the rumble condition. Subsequenty, I replaced the rotors and pads, since it's really an easy fix. I spent maybe $300 total, and the problems went away. I think that cars tend to lose their "ride" while sitting on auto lots for long periods. Plus the rotors and pads tend to lose their smooth contact, too. I'd recommend using these problems to get a better price, and then buying the car, since you're paying a pittance for a Lexus. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRP Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Many of these dealers also offer to sell you a warranty on the car. See if one is available, then read the fine print! Maybe he'll throw that into a negotiated deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95LS400Bob Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 The biggest question I have is "Can you do this suspension repair work yourself?" If youb are going to pay someone to work on this car....be smart and pay more for a car with no problems. If you can do the work yourself..then price out some suspension components (like the lower support bars, ball joints, etc.) so you can get an idea on the repairs cost in parts alone. Blue book wise: Wholesale good condition (and this is not) $3670 Fair condition $3000 Private party value good $5385 Private fair $4755 I think your offer is good and the dealer "never leave a dollar on the table" is playing you until Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95LS400Bob Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 To the top. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumart1 Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Thanks to those who have responded so far. Keep them coming! To address some of the responses, Wandawoods, TexasLexus and lovelex - I think you may be right about the alignment, pads/rotors, and tire balancing. All are very likely culprits I suppose. Thanks KY350 for the negotiating skills. Since the dealer has a ridiculous "listed" price of $8k, they don't seem to be open at all to my criticisms. In fact, and I know this is a sales ploy, they seem uninterested in even selling it to me, basically just saying that if I come in with the $4500 they will do it, but anything less and it goes to the wholesaler Friday morning. This dealer does have a very good reputation with almost no complaints. They are a large dealer and been in bus. since 1912. In a way they have been generous by admitting to me the "crunch" noise and the hood struts issue. HRP, unfortunately the Dealer is offering No Warranty. It is my fault for not insisting earlier that I take it to a 3rd party mechanic, and I think my time is running out, although according to KY350 and 95LS400Bob (thanks), they can't get near $4500 at a wholesale auction. I'm assuming they know exactly what they can get at auction. At the wholesale auction, do buyers inspect the cars in detail for problems, or are they not even driven? As far as repairs go, I can do minor work but nothing with the suspension, however I do have a mechanic that will do honest work on the side at a discount. Perhaps I should be more patient, but at the same time I look at the service history which appears immaculate, and the cosmetic condition of the car which is one of the best I've seen in the 90-94 years, and I am afraid of regretting passing it up. I guess what it boils down to is how bad the suspension repairs "could" be, and make a decision off of that, because the engine and trans and the rest seem strong, quiet, and smooth. What to do, what to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasLexus94 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Curiously, I forgot to mention that, while I took a chance, and bought the car knowing that the wheel balance and brakes were my problem, I also had the droopy hood strut issue. Here, I insisted that the dealer replace them before I would buy the car-It took a month for the struts to be located, and the mechanic whined about how expensive they are. I knew that they are not that expensive-$80 or so each-and the install is simple. I think you have a typical weasel dealer, and that crap about the car falling apart is all part of the act. Be careful, and let us know how it turns out. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KY350 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Gumart1 - You are under the illusion that the dealer has done you a favour by telling you about the "crunch" noise and bad struts. All he did was prewarn you of the obvious faults that a lay person would detect with the car, as this way he manages (read lowers) your expectations prior to the test drive, so that you are not disappointed by the noises and rough feel of the car. After all, any individual with sound hearing would have noticed the noises as well as a hood that won't stay up! BTW, most 1st Gen LS400's can be detailed to look good with some elbow grease to the interior and exterior. The fact that this car has Lexus service records is wonderfull and the problems you see now are probably just minor in nature. You mentioned that you have a friend that is a mechanic. See if you can get him along to the dealership and let him check the car out for you prior to Fri if you are insistant on purchasing this particular vehicle. If this mechanic agrees that the problems are balancing / brake related, then subtract the cost of these repairs and new struts from the dealers asking price of $4500. That way, you'll probably be closer to $4500 than $3800 and ultimately your total outlay does not exceed $4500. The dealer may just bite at such as offer, especially on the day that he has to take it to the wholesalers where he'll get shafted on the price anyway!!! Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 At most wholesal car sales. No driving is done. At best the car is started, but that is it. That is why most cars go for the low end at a wholesale action. Most wholesale buyers are very willing to pass on any car. The dealer would be lucky to get 3,000.00 nat auction. On the vib. My bet is the rotors. Tell the dealer you will buy the car if your machanic tells you the car is O.K. If the dealer will not go for this, he knows the car is bad. After all if the car passes your going to buy it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumart1 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 Thanks for all the info and suggestions. At this point I think I am ready to follow through at my initial $3800 offer and take a chance, but if the dealer counters at all I will insist on a mechanic's inspection, and then I'll have some proven issues in which to either stick to my price or walk away. I'll let you know how it all plays out tomorrow! Thank you again... By the way, is it true that the keyless remote was an OPTION on the 1990 model? I forgot to ask the Dealer if he had the remote - all I was given was a key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990LS400 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Yes, keyless entry was an option on my 90 LS although it was an inexpensive option. The service key should have a single button on it that is flush with the plastic part of the key. If the key does not have this button, then it is a valet key. The keyless entry on the early LS was not very sophisticated compared to later models and there is no audible beep when the doors are opened or close. I think the "beep" was added in 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobilyte Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 message deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumart1 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Share Posted January 7, 2005 Just wanted to give an update - Because the car is "supposed" to be shipped off to the Wholesaler today, I called the Dealer yesterday and spoke to the Sales Assistant. The Manager was out until today. I told him that I wanted my mechanic to check out the car and if all is OK (I know it isn't) then I would pay the $4500. I also said if they did not want the hassle, I would go to $4k but that is absolutely firm and final and if they want a penny more to do not call me and throw my phone number away. I was told that the Manager gets in at 9am (it is now 12:30pm) and that the truck comes at 10:30am to pick up the cars. I am trusting everyone's advice that there is no way they will get near $4k at wholesale. Are there other advantages to the dealer to wholesale it rather than selling it to me? Or is the market stronger here in the Chicago area? When I look on Cars.com or Autotrader, the asking price of the 90-94's are much higher than $4500 with shady pasts and higher miles. Remember this dealer thought they had it reconditioned fully and advertised it everywhere at $8k. Did I just pass up a winner? I mean, perfect dealer service history, 100k miles, no LCD issues, new tires and PS pump, and a near perfect body and interior? Or is the dealer playing me and waiting for me to call again? I hate the games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartkat Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Just wanted to give an update - Because the car is "supposed" to be shipped off to the Wholesaler today, I called the Dealer yesterday and spoke to the Sales Assistant. The Manager was out until today. I told him that I wanted my mechanic to check out the car and if all is OK (I know it isn't) then I would pay the $4500. I also said if they did not want the hassle, I would go to $4k but that is absolutely firm and final and if they want a penny more to do not call me and throw my phone number away. I was told that the Manager gets in at 9am (it is now 12:30pm) and that the truck comes at 10:30am to pick up the cars. I am trusting everyone's advice that there is no way they will get near $4k at wholesale. Are there other advantages to the dealer to wholesale it rather than selling it to me? Or is the market stronger here in the Chicago area? When I look on Cars.com or Autotrader, the asking price of the 90-94's are much higher than $4500 with shady pasts and higher miles. Remember this dealer thought they had it reconditioned fully and advertised it everywhere at $8k. Did I just pass up a winner? I mean, perfect dealer service history, 100k miles, no LCD issues, new tires and PS pump, and a near perfect body and interior? Or is the dealer playing me and waiting for me to call again? I hate the games! ← The advantage to dealer for auctioning the care is that, if the price meets his reserve, he gets cash for a hunk of metal that has been taking up space on his lot. He can put that money back into something that will sell. If the car gets sold, it will most likely be bought by someone who has a better market, or prospects for that type of car. The only way to verify if they are playing you is do drive down there and see if it's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobilyte Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 message deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumart1 Posted January 10, 2005 Author Share Posted January 10, 2005 Thank you to all of you who have assisted me in determining the potential problems on the 90 LS400 and for your advice on how to deal with the dealer. I certainly tried to make it work in the end, even offering $4200 as a last minute final offer to buy the car, and instructed the Salesperson that if they wanted even a penny more, NOT to call me. Well, they didn't call, and I drove down to the dealership today and found that the car was gone! Why in the world would they wholesale the car when they could have had $4200 cash in hand? Perhaps in the rare case that they are a "caring" dealership, they did not want to sell a car with potentially unsafe conditions. But I doubt it. Migirdech, you are correct, they did recondition the car I believe to the best of their ability, having Lexus replace the PS Pump, instead of just cleaning it, and throwing on new tires. I don't believe they intended to cover up the suspension issues, it was just too noticeable. So you are right, they wholesaled it. In any case, what attracted me to the car was that it never missed a Dealer service, had zero dings or scratches, no hint of rust, and as clean an interior I have seen with leather that looked 99% new. I think my offer was fair. Of course I have regrets over the $300 difference between putting together a deal or not, but I have to believe there is another one out there. I hope that I will still be welcome as a member here, even though I am not truly a Lexus owner just yet! I appreciate what the forum provides and am grateful for the guidance. I just hope to find a decent one for sale in the Chicago area that's been maintained, low miles, looks great, and is priced right! Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 My 1990 LS400 had the optional remote entry as well. I think it was a very popular option. I would not rush into buying this or any LS400 and I would suggest getting any potential car checked by your mechanics. I guess I say this from where I thought I moved a little too fast and bought my 90 LS400 with 224K for $3995. It developed a vibration, due to cupped tires, because the shop did not re-align after new rear struts- then the front struts started clunking- then the LCD went out, then the radio went out, then the speedometer needle went out, within 9 months of ownership. Since these (LCD, backlighting and guage needle lights) are working on this LS you are considering, do not expect that to last long, unless they have already been changed, because at this age, they can go at anytime. ALL of these were working perfectly on my 1990 when I bought it, but within 3 months, the LCD started turning black and the speedometer needle went 1/2 way out when I hit a bump. Even with these problems, that is not a reason not to buy it, because these things can be repaired. The price seems good considering the mileage, but with the other problems, it seems a bit steep. I do not understand why if he "wholesales" it to someone else, why cannot he sell it to you for the "wholesale" price? As a comparison, I sold my 1990 LS for $3000. It had 234K, but it was in perfect running order (engine and transmission), but it had the minor annoyances listed. These are great cars, and I regret selling mine. I did not realize how much I appreciated the power and smoothness of this car, until I sold it. I would just offer $3500 and see what happens. If he will not accept, walk away and keep looking. Do not let them play mind games with you. You will find a good one. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90LS400Lexus Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Please disregard parts of my last post- I had actually started typing that reply about 4 hours ago and had to leave without finishing it and just posted it. I see you have replied since I started to type the last post. If it is sold, do not fret. Just keep thinking it was not worth it and shop around. You will find another. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gumart1 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Does anyone know of a Dealer that will help me purchase the LS400 at an auction like Manheim? I just read the other posts about buying at auction, and thought how amazing it would be to buy the car that my Dealer decided to wholesale because we couldn't agree on price. I am in the Chicago area and would love a referral. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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