Eurocars Really Starting To Smell Bad

[hammer008]

Sedans/2004 consumer reports

Best reliability..................... Worst

Lexus IS300.................. Mercedes-Benz S-Class :chairshot:

Acura RL (previous generation)................... Jaguar S-Type :chairshot:

Toyota Camry (4-cyl.).................... BMW 7 Series :chairshot:

Toyota Avalon................... Jaguar X-Type :chairshot:

Lexus LS430..................... Mercedes-Benz E-Class :chairshot:

Lexus GS300/GS430.................... Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6):chairshot:

[NeiLtYmE]

thats bull. cant really compare any of those cars. A 4 cyl camry as way away from a bmw.

but true, german cars are only cool for about 5 years. Then they make u bend over for cash

[jragosta]

thats bull.  cant really compare any of those cars.  A 4 cyl  camry as way away from a bmw. 

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I've learned that Consumer Reports isn't really a good source of information about anything.

I'm quite knowledgeable about computers - and their rankings are usually absurd. Friends have told me the same thing about areas that they're expert in. It seems that CR gives nice reviews that seem helpful - if you don't know the subject. The more you know, the less sense their reviews make.

Comparing a 4 cyl Camry to a 7 Series BMW is pretty silly.

[hammer008]

Comparing a 4 cyl Camry to a 7 Series BMW is pretty silly.

Friends have told me the same thing about areas that they're expert in

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They are not comparing a Camry to a BMW. Camry is the 3rd most reliable whereas the BMW is the 3rd most unreliable. I guess the way I posted is confusing people.

I would have thought that 5 million surveys would have ironed out/taken care of bias.

[jragosta]

Comparing a 4 cyl Camry to a 7 Series BMW is pretty silly.

Friends have told me the same thing about areas that they're expert in

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They are not comparing a Camry to a BMW. Camry is the 3rd most reliable whereas the BMW is the 3rd most unreliable. I guess the way I posted is confusing people.

I would have thought that 5 million surveys would have ironed out/taken care of bias.

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Thanks for the clarification. I can accept that.

I should have clarified my negative statements. CR is pretty good when it comes to collecting data and reporting raw data. It's when they get into interpreting it or providing reviews that they're somewhat questionable.

Keep in mind, of course, that this type of report is generally somewhat risky statistically. People who report are generally the ones who have problems, so the results are skewed. Also, there's a perception bias. If my trunk lid is out of alignment on my Lexus, I might complain, but if it was out of alignment by a similar amount on a Ford Focus, I probably wouldn't.

[mxl4729]

Think of it this way I owned 2 cars

My 1997 Lexus ES 300 and a 1994 ford ranger both with about 80000 miles.

Never had 1 problem with the ranger ever. And I do nothing to it accept change the fluids.

I have had stupid little problem with the Lexus that have broken.

But here is the difference.

The ranger has nothing no power anything not even steering. No interior no nothing. So nothing to go wrong. it has a 4 cyl 2.3L motor putting out a total of 103 hp

The Lexus has power everything and because of all of these parts things are going to go bad. It has a 6 cyl 3.0l putting out 200 hp.

I would say the ranger is much more reliable but I do not think you can compare them because the options are so different.

so when toyota can put out a Toyota Camry that has the opctions and power that the BMW 7 Series has then you can compair them.

and the fact that it says Toyota Camry 4-cyl. makes me think it does not have much stuff so nothing to go wrong.

[hammer008]

Well your point would be more valid if the other 5 cars on the list were low end but most of the other cars...in fact all the other cars are high end/fully loaded...hence your point is tenuous at best. Moreover, this is a "current trend", Eurocars were far better in previous years' surveys. Accordingly, I believe the "trend" of decreasing Eurocar quality is valid. Even the BMW executive acknowledged the report and said they will improve next year as opposed to trashing the stats.

[kcpth]

interesting data. I don't understand why German Car's values are held better than japanese cars? I mean, if you have an ES300 vs. BMW 3series... how come the german car can retain more of a resell value? It clearly show's that their car aren't AS reliable as Japanese cars (take my statement with a grain of salt, i'm not saying that they aren't reliable... but NOT AS reliable). Year after year, Toyota/Lexus have been dominating in the reliablity field n customer satisfication field. But the car values just don't stick. Even JD also says Toyota n Lexus are among the top in reliablity.

I wonder if it has anything to do with Chrysler buying MB? Maybe the management team aren't doing a good job improving it? Eh.... never drove a German Car before (would love to one day) but i love my Lex. B)

[hilchan]

interesting data.    I don't understand why German Car's values are held better than japanese cars?  I mean, if you have an ES300 vs. BMW 3series... how come the german car can retain more of a resell value?  It clearly show's that their car aren't AS reliable as Japanese cars (take my statement with a grain of salt, i'm not saying that they aren't reliable... but NOT AS reliable). 

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In my point of view, There is more demand for german vehicle since they are perceived by most people as more cool. My wife insisted on getting a bimmer despite knowing how unreliable these car was. I insisted on a Japanese luxury since I'll be the one dealing with the problem and to be honest I didn't want the 04 ES330 model as it looks just like a camry on the front and side view and couldn't justify 40k out the door with a camry look alike. I almost got persuaded with the 5 series but they didn't have the NAV model and have a 6 months waiting period at that time and the price was significantly more with dealer mark up. But my point is, I was willing to pay more for the german brand because it's a bimmer and it drives better in terms of performance.

In the end, we got the ES330 and not exactly happy with the @!#@ transmission delay either. But we were able to save 10k plus, no 6 months wait for a navigation system and future reliability issues.

Would I buy another Lexus? Well the transmission delay really got to me so maybe not. But I will still consider a bimmer on my next purchase.

[kcpth]

How bad can the delay be? Oh do you mean when it switches gears? Or do you mean when it goes from reverse to drive?

[jragosta]

How bad can the delay be? 

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You must be new here.

See the thread that's pinned to the top of the bulletin board.

[kcpth]

hahaha... yea i am pretty new jragosta. I never read that thread yet. The threads that i have read are usually the new stuff or the problems i'm experiencing with my own vehicle.

Thanks... i will read it now.

[SW03ES]

Well Chrysler didn't buy MB. Chrysler wasn't in a financial position to buy anyone, Mercedes "MERGED" with Chrysler in order to keep them from going out of business so effectively MB bought Chrysler.

As to the resale value its really a function of brand image and the new car sales philosophy. BMW and Mercedes just plain have more prestige than Lexus does, although Lexus is far higher regarded than Infiniti or Acura. Also BMW and Benz are careful not to sell their cars at a significant discount where Lexus isn't. Resale values are computed off MSRP, and if you can buy a new one for $4000 off MSRP then that makes 1 year resale LOOK really low.