Why Did You Choose The Es?

krg04 · July 8, 2004

Hey,

I'm new here. We're contemplating the purchase of a new car. We test drove the Acura TL and loved it. The car is actually going to be my mom's, but i'm the car buff of the family. Recently, the ES330 has been catching her eye, she's pointed them out to me a few times and asked me about them. Did anyone here look into the TL before buying their ES, and if so, why did you decide to go with the ES? For the record...my mom is in her 40s, and is a fairly conservative driver. I personally like the TL better (I think)...but i'm not sure. Feel free to comment.

jweiss · July 8, 2004

Welcome to the group.

I too like the sound of the TL. In considering my next car, which won't be for a few years, I would look at the TL. A major problem, certainly by comparison with Lexus or any Toyota product, is the turning ratio, It's 41' on TL and much less on 330. Unless Acura made improvements, this would be enough to turn me off.

jay swinger · July 8, 2004

It could be your mom may be able to detect the difference in ride. I am guessing now but seem to remember that the Acuras are supposed to be "sporty." If they do have a sporty ride, that may come from larger wheel sizes.

I am convinced -- as I believe the testing groups are -- that ride quality is seriously degraded with larger wheel sizes (17-inch rather than 15-inch). My wife and I hated a Nissan with 17-inch wheels because of its ride. It was a great car in all other aspects, but it constantly reminded us of our mistake in buying it.

lexus-lover · July 8, 2004

Did lots of research on both vehicles on the Internet prior to our taking the TL and Es 330 out and about. For my money the ES is smoother, quieter, has a more luxurious interior and the fit and finish is second to none. It also has a better resale value, better track record with respect to repairs and is generally considered to be the cream of the cro in the near luxury category. To each his own of course, but everything I read coupled with the test drives of both and that I own my own ES 330 Sport Model you could not put me in anything else. As a side-bar we also had trouble with a 2003 Honda repair, a required part took over a month to be located. True, many not happen to Acura, but this left a very bad taste in my mouth. Let us know what you and your mom decide and hope others will give you their reasons for choosing to buy their ES.

SKperformance · July 8, 2004

i personally like the look of the new TL and the sporty edge which it has and the lexus has none.

I have driven a few Tl's and they are nice but not as buttery as the lexus

Of the people i know with the tl they have tranny problems one guy is on his fourth in 3 years.nuf said

jragosta · July 8, 2004

My last car was a 2000 TL - so I looked at the new TL before buying an ES 330. They're really different cars.

The TL is a sport luxury car - with heavy emphasis on sport. Higher performance than the TL, sportier ride, and high performance audio.

The ES330 is a luxury car - pure and simple (sure, low end luxury, but they're clearly trying to make it the most luxurious car then can for the price). Not a high performance car by any means and won't respond as well to heavy driving as the TL. OTOH, it's noticeably quieter and smoother ride.

I also found that the service at the Lexus dealer was much better. The loaner car is great (I had more hassle getting one from the Acura dealer and if I remember correctly, it was only for warranty repairs) - the Lexus dealer provides one without question and I never have to wait more than a day or two for one to be available so I can schedule service. Also, the Lexus dealer seems more eager to please. These factors are likely to be dealer-specific, though.

There is, of course, the transmission problem with the Lexus, but unless your mother drives a LOT more aggressively than my Mom, it's not likely to be an issue.

If your mom's a little old lady from Pasadena, the TL is a better choice. Otherwise, I'd suggest strongly considering the Lexus.

But car rides are still free at most dealers, so why not have her drive them both and choose?

eman_be_lexin · July 8, 2004

I was shopping for an Acura RL when I walked into the car dealership. I test drove the RL and I liked it. It wasn't a "fun" car in my opinion. I tried out a 2000 acura TL but the only color they had was that pinkish red color. I was not trying to drive that. The guy told me he had a 97 ES with low miles on it. I told him I don't want a Lexus. I wasn't a Toyota fan. He talked me into test driving it. It was love at first drive. I was really impressed with the luxury and sportiness of this car. It took me a week to make up my mind and I chose the Lexus over the RL.

krg04 · July 8, 2004

If your mom's a little old lady from Pasadena, the TL is a better choice. Otherwise, I'd suggest strongly considering the Lexus.
But car rides are still free at most dealers, so why not have her drive them both and choose?

Nope, she's in her 40s, but still likes a somewhat sporty ride. Both of my parents drove the new TL. My mom loved it, my dad (who is in his early 40s) said it wasn't a comfortable ride, and he wasn't crazy about it.

Basically, this is what I think: The TL is edgier inside and out, is sportier, faster, and comes with more features but costs a little more.

The ES330 is somewhat bland to look at and to drive, but it drives like a luxury car, is very comfortable, classy, and reasonably priced for what you get.

...and yeah, she will drive both eventually. Right now she's just casually looking. She said that she probably get one by the end of the summer.

Believe it or not, she had her mind set on an suv about 3 months ago. She went and looked at the VW Touareg, BMW X3, and Volvo XC90. Then she just changed her mind entirely. We looked at the Nissan Maxima (my dad liked it, mom didn't), then the TL...we almost bought the TL, my parents were ready to sign, but then they decided they wanted to look around a bit more. We have looked, and my dad's been trying to talk my mom into different cars, but she's been set on the TL the whole time. Within the last week or so, my mom has pointed out the ES and said she loved the look of it. Just the other day, a white one drove by us, and my mom started asking me about it, "how is it in comparison to the TL" etc, etc...

I did some research, and that's what brought me here.

krg04 · July 8, 2004

For the record, I'm 17 and I drive a 2003 white Saturn Ion

tundra-lover · July 9, 2004

From a women's point of view (just guessing here), they seem to like simple and easy to use controls. The Lexus-I thought was easier to operate controls vs the Honda/Acura. From a sport standpoint, I would take the Acura if they make it in a stick just because I hate driving automatic.

SW03ES · July 9, 2004

Actually the TL costs several thousand dollars less than the ES.

I almost bought a TL (the previous generation) and got the Lexus (which cost $10,000 more at the time) instead because the quality was so much more evident in the ES. Real wood, softer touch plastics, more heft in the doors etc.

I have not driven a new TL but I sat in one. The styling and quality are much better but I still wouldn't buy one. In fact, it didnt even interest me enough to drive it. Seats were hard, gauges were gimmicky looking. Interior looks good but the quality feel isn't as high.

IMO the real difference is the TL is a 30-35k car that feels like a 30-35k car. The ES is a 32-38k car that feels like a 50k car. The difference is immediately apparent to me when I sit in other entry luxury cars and even mid luxury cars (E class benz etc), the ES feels much more expensive.

tundra-lover · July 9, 2004

I don't know about the whole feel like a 50k car thing? My 97' doesn't feel nearly as nice as any of the 50-70k luxury cars I've driven. My car has plastic wood trim, cheap leather seats- well I take that back, they are only leather on the top and vinyl on the back and sides, the stereo isn't nearly as nice, and not as much leg room in front or back, and not as much power, and no manual tranny offered.

I do think it is worth what I paid, and is much better quality and reliability than similarly priced vehicles. I truly think for the most part, you get what pay for with a Toyota/Lexus. Oh, and customer service is much better with Toyota than any other dealer here in Utah. For those who live here, please stay away from Larry Miller anything!

SW03ES · July 9, 2004

No offense to those that own them but the 97-01 ES isn't anywhere near as well built or as high quality as the 02+. Its hard to even believe the two cars are the same car. When they set out to design the 02 they set out to build a "baby LS" with all attention given to high quality and luxury ride. Check out some reviews from when the 02 first came out and read the authors reactions to the improvement over the previous car. The words "feels like a 50k car" aren't mine but I agree with them. The first comment out of everyones mouth when they ride in my car is "It only cost how much?". The 02+ ES has real wood, the same leather used in the LS, the same dash covering material, and the Mark Levinson audio.

The main reason I bought the ES is because it very closely approximated the ride and noise level of my dad's LS. What I really wanted was an LS but I couldn't afford a new one and didn't want to purchased used. He now has a new 04 LS and he always comments how similar my car rides when he rides in it and how hard it is to believe its a $30k cheaper car.

The ES certainly is a smaller car than say an LS or equivelent, and it definately lacks the V8 power but thats about all. The ES actually is larger and has more interior room than the Lexus GS, Benz E class, BMW 5 series. I regularly detail a 530i, brand new. I wouldn't trade my ES for it for anything. Sat in a E320 at the Benz dealer, interior doesn't seem as nice or as high quality. Its just a great car for the money.

Keep in mind whenever I make comparisons about the ES I'm always talking about my generation ES, the previous ones are just completely different cars.

krg04 · July 10, 2004

Actually the TL costs several thousand dollars less than the ES.

Well, that's not the case any more.

The 2004 TL starts at just over $33,000...the 2004 ES330 starts at just over $31,000...both are similarly equipped. So the TL is actually $2,000 more. And I have to disagree about the interior comment....I personally think the TL is just as plush. Keep in mind, this is the BRAND NEW '04 TL that just came out this year, It is nothing like the previous generation, and it has consistantly rated higher than the ES since it was released. Now, on another note, I still do really like the ES330, it's a bit classier than the TL.

SW03ES · July 10, 2004

I detailed a brand new TL today, its not as plush and soft inside as the ES. Thats okay though its not supposed to be. Acura definately moved in the direction of BMW with the new TL, hence the firmer more german look and feel to the interior. The guy actually also has an 02 ES300 and he agreed with my assessments of the differences. As for it rating higher, I haven't seen a review that says that. I have seen reviews that say what I'm saying, they're very different cars aimed at very different buyers. I would never buy a new TL, but I would and did buy an ES. Different cars, different buyers. Which one you prefer is a matter of personal taste not how good either car is.

As for the pricing, true the "base price" of the ES is $31k and change but the TL still costs less. See, they don't ship ES equipped like that, the car basically doesn't exist. Lexus ships the ES one of two ways:

1. A "premium package" car that includes wood leather wheel, HID, VSC, wheel locks trunk mat etc. (like steviej's car) This car MSRPs at $35,174. This is the TRUE base ES.

2. A "nav/lev" car that includes the navigation system, the ML audio, and the rear sunshade on top of what the premium package has (like my and amf's cars). This car is the "loaded" car and is MSRPs for $37,934.

ES of different configurations are around but are rare, lower optioned ES are special orders or fleet cars. Even the loaner cars at Lexus dealers are premium package cars. They just don't make them lesser.

The base TL 5 speed auto starts at $32,650 ($2524 less than the ES w/ premium) and that already includes everything on the premium package ES and ALSO includes their premium stereo which you have to step up to the nav/lev ES to get. The TL also has bi-xenon headlights the Lexus only has xenon. Price advantage TL base.

As for loaded, the 5 speed TL with nav is $34,650 ($3284 less than the nav/lev ES) and you get features the nav/lev ES doesn't have like voice activated nav, XM radio, bluetooth phone connectivity, solar sensing climate control.

The TL is DEFINATELY a substantially cheaper vehicle than the ES. You also get more features for the money, but the question is which do you prefer comfort or sport. The TL strikes me as a good compromise for people who like some german precision but aren't willing to fully commit to something like a BMW.

krg04 · July 10, 2004

I detailed a brand new TL today, its not as plush and soft inside as the ES. Thats okay though its not supposed to be. Acura definately moved in the direction of BMW with the new TL, hence the firmer more german look and feel to the interior. The guy actually also has an 02 ES300 and he agreed with my assessments of the differences. As for it rating higher, I haven't seen a review that says that. I have seen reviews that say what I'm saying, they're very different cars aimed at very different buyers. I would never buy a new TL, but I would and did buy an ES. Different cars, different buyers. Which one you prefer is a matter of personal taste not how good either car is.
As for the pricing, true the "base price" of the ES is $31k and change but the TL still costs less. See, they don't ship ES equipped like that, the car basically doesn't exist. Lexus ships the ES one of two ways:

1. A "premium package" car that includes wood leather wheel, HID, VSC, wheel locks trunk mat etc. (like steviej's car) This car MSRPs at $35,174. This is the TRUE base ES.

2. A "nav/lev" car that includes the navigation system, the ML audio, and the rear sunshade on top of what the premium package has (like my and amf's cars). This car is the "loaded" car and is MSRPs for $37,934.

ES of different configurations are around but are rare, lower optioned ES are special orders or fleet cars. Even the loaner cars at Lexus dealers are premium package cars. They just don't make them lesser.

The base TL 5 speed auto starts at $32,650 ($2524 less than the ES w/ premium) and that already includes everything on the premium package ES and ALSO includes their premium stereo which you have to step up to the nav/lev ES to get. The TL also has bi-xenon headlights the Lexus only has xenon. Price advantage TL base.

As for loaded, the 5 speed TL with nav is $34,650 ($3284 less than the nav/lev ES) and you get features the nav/lev ES doesn't have like voice activated nav, XM radio, bluetooth phone connectivity, solar sensing climate control.

The TL is DEFINATELY a substantially cheaper vehicle than the ES. You also get more features for the money, but the question is which do you prefer comfort or sport. The TL strikes me as a good compromise for people who like some german precision but aren't willing to fully commit to something like a BMW.

I've seen ES's on the lot for MUCH less than $35k...trust me.

Also, how much did you get off the $37k sticker price of your car? I bet it was a decent amount. The Lexus dealer closest to me has a "no-haggle" policy. They have all the final prices marked on the car, and that's what you pay. They have decently equipped ES330s that sticker close to $36k priced at $32,xxx. Not bad at all. On the other hand, Acura dealers are much tighter with negotiation, and it's hard to get much off. Two family members bought MDXs and they didn't get one cent off. (this was when they were new and hard to get, but still) Also, my dad went back to further his degree recently, so he qualifies for the Lexus $750 college graduate discount. That also gives the ES more of an edge as far as pricing. Either way, it doesn't matter, both cars are too close in price to influence the decision, so it will basically come down to preference. My mom has driven the TL, and loved it. That leads me to believe that she may not care for the ES. She told me she likes the ride to be at least a little sporty, and doesn't want to feel like she's driving on a cloud. I have a feeling that when she drives the ES, her mind will change. I actually am starting to really like the Lexus, so I hope she likes it also.

btw...I walked into the computer room earlier today and my dad was looking at the ES online...so maybe that's what we'll end up with. Either way, I wouldn't be dissapointed.

SW03ES · July 11, 2004

You haven't seen ES's that MSRP for less than 35k. They simply do not ship them that way. Maybe the no haggle price sure, but not the MSRP. If a dealer has such a car they special ordered it. When I bought my ES the car MSRP'd for $39,670 and I got it for $35500. Thats about $1000 over invoice, they're selling TLs here for about the same savings now as long as its a 5 speed and not a manual. The MDX is a totally different situation and in a lot of cities there is actually a waiting list. The TL is in much more ample supply. If anything the extra savings you get on the ES over the TL EQUALS them out in price, but there's no way the TL will cost more similarly equipped. You say you saw the premium package es for $32 and change, well thats the MSRP of the base TL. So even if you had to pay MSRP for the TL and got a substatial discount on the ES, they're still the same in cost.

I can price these things in my sleep ;)

As for the discount, that must be a dealer thing. As far as I know Lexus doesn't offer a college graduate discount from the factory. Like everything else it depends on the region and dealership, I've also never seen a Lexus dealer with no haggle pricing like that, thats definately odd...

krg04 · July 11, 2004

One of my teachers bought an '04 ES330 just before school got out. She said she got it for under $30,000, she also commented that it was cheaper than she could get the base TL for. She did not get it at the no haggle dealer, but said the dealership she got it at was willing to take a LOT off. The base TL stickers at OVER $33,000...so i'm not sure where you're getting $32k and change...I think you're forgeting the destination charge. The Acura dealership my parents went to quoted them $31,600 for a car that stickered at $33something. I'm not sure how you can say the TL is substantially cheaper? As far as the college rebate, it is not a regional thing. go to www.lexus.com ...there is a link to it right on the home page. It's a new program they started beginning in June. As for the no haggle pricing...yeah, it is kind of odd...i'll agree with that. It's very common around here though. The local Saturn, Honda, Hyundai, Ford, Scion, Toyota, and Lexus dealerships all have no haggle pricing. Scion and Saturn have that policy at all their dealerships...and the rest of the dealerships (Honda, Hyundai, Ford, Toyota, Lexus) are all owned by the same company, which uses no haggle pricing.

Also, if my mom wanted to get a base model ES330, why couldn't she order it?...this is Lexus after all, I would think they would make it a little easier to get a customer into a car they want.

MS_ES330 · July 11, 2004

There is a $750 cash incentive for recent graduates. You can verify on edmunds.com Lexus is also offering 2.9% financing for qualified buyers.

I recently purchased a 2004 ES330 w/ Levinson Audio & Navigation (MSRP $38,500) for under invoice (less than $34,000 + TTL). I seriously considered the 04 TL and it was a hard choice but I went with the Lexus for the following reasons:

-3rd gen. TL in its first model year and bugs are still being worked out.

-TL w/ Navi hard to find for less than $1000 of MSRP. (I figured my true cost to own would be less with ES330 after residual value is factored in)

-ES330 definitely had a noticeably more supple ride. And very quiet.

-ES330 felt more mature than TL (I'm 34 years old)

I'm sure your mom will be happy with either car. It was a tough choice for me but I do really love my new ES330.

krg04 · July 11, 2004

There is a $750 cash incentive for recent graduates. You can verify on edmunds.com Lexus is also offering 2.9% financing for qualified buyers.
I recently purchased a 2004 ES330 w/ Levinson Audio & Navigation (MSRP $38,500) for under invoice (less than $34,000 + TTL). I seriously considered the 04 TL and it was a hard choice but I went with the Lexus for the following reasons:

-3rd gen. TL in its first model year and bugs are still being worked out.

-TL w/ Navi hard to find for less than $1000 of MSRP. (I figured my true cost to own would be less with ES330 after residual value is factored in)

-ES330 definitely had a noticeably more supple ride. And very quiet.

-ES330 felt more mature than TL (I'm 34 years old)

I'm sure your mom will be happy with either car. It was a tough choice for me but I do really love my new ES330.

Thank you,

Here's my question. Do you find the ES to be somewhat fun to drive? I think my mom is scared that she'll end up with and old person's car (cushy ride) and doesn't want to date herself. She wants something that's still somewhat fun to drive around town in. She's not a driving enthusiast, to her, cars are to get you from point A to point B, but she does enjoy an occasional joyride to the coast or something like that.

MS_ES330 · July 11, 2004

Here's my question. Do you find the ES to be somewhat fun to drive? I think my mom is scared that she'll end up with and old person's car (cushy ride) and doesn't want to date herself.

I do find it fun to drive. The ES does have some power, enough oomph to move when you want/need to. Also, the Levinson/Nav cars come with the adjustable suspension (from sport to comfort) if that is something you're mom might consider.

Another consideration for me was that I wanted a comfortable car for my daily commutes. Weekend sport driving was a secondary consideration. Not sure if that applies to your mom.

SW03ES · July 11, 2004

I'm sure she could get a premium package car for under 30k if it were an undesirable color combination or something, carry over from another model year, dealer demo. That doesn't change the fact that it MSRPs for more than the base TL MSRPs for, thats all I'm saying.

I'm getting the $32k figure from you actually.

They have decently equipped ES330s that sticker close to $36k priced at $32,xxx.

The 32k figure on the price of the TL comes from the Acura website. Even if I did forget the destination charge its only $500 or so.

My point was if you buy that ES for $32,XXX and if you have to pay MSRP for the TL, they cost the same amount. Any discount you got on the TL would make it cheaper than the ES. There's a lot of bargaining room on the ES but they're not going to sell it under invoice, and the invoice is similar to the MSRP of the TL. My point is even if you can get an ES for invoice, its going to cost the same as a similarly equipped TL sold at MSRP.

As for special orders, some dealers will let you and some wont. Lexus really doesn't like customers to special order cars and it takes about 6 months to get the car, plus any bargaining room is shot as you have to put down a sizable non-refundable deposit to order the car. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a base ES that has been dropped from a fleet order or something, but these cars don't have any equipment, not even HID headlights.

I didn't know about the college discount, thats pretty cool.

As for the fun to drive, I love my ES but its not "fun to drive". Its designed with no sport whatsoever on purpose, Lexus' stance is that they have the IS for sport and there is no reason for them to try and make people who want a sporty ride buy the ES. It rides and drives like an isolation tank, feels like its sitting still etc. I love it but if your mom wants a sporty drive she wont.

Only way to find out is to take em for a frive ;) Good luck!

SW03ES · July 11, 2004

Also, the Levinson/Nav cars come with the adjustable suspension (from sport to comfort) if that is something you're mom might consider.

Keep in mind he will have to special order a car with the AVS suspension in NH. Lexus only ships the AVS suspension to the west coast, it is a special order option everywhere else.

MS_ES330 · July 11, 2004

There's a lot of bargaining room on the ES but they're not going to sell it under invoice, and the invoice is similar to the MSRP of the TL. My point is even if you can get an ES for invoice, its going to cost the same as a similarly equipped TL sold at MSRP.

I bought mine last week for $700 under invoice. No trade in. In Southern CA.

SW03ES · July 11, 2004

Okay dug around with the pricing some more. We're BOTH forgetting the destination charge.

The base ES, the one they don't ship with the destination charge of $650 is $32350. The base TL with destination charge of $545 is $33,195. So there you would think the TL is a little more expensive, but its not. For one they don't ship base ES's that way, for another that price TL has way more equipment than that price ES. You have to compare the premium package car, the "real base ES" for an adequate comparison.

THAT car with destination is $35,201. The invoice is $30,991 so a good target prrice is right where they're offering it at $32k. You MIGHT be able to do better on your own which is usually the case with no haggle dealers but thats a pretty good price. Thats the car you've got to compare to the base TL. So even with the $750 discount if the car is $32,000 even with the no haggle pricing the price is STILL $31,250. If you're saying the Acura can be had for $31,600 then they're almost the same price, niether one is cheaper than the other. $350 isn't worth buying one over the other.

The nav cars are about the same but the price gap is wider with the Lexus being slightly more. ES with nav are relatively rare and usually demand more in the market.

My point is don't get your hopes up about getting a "base ES" at all kinds of savings even if the dealership says they can get you one. They simply don't make them that way.