Buying Advice -- Es-300

[FredParoutaud]

Hi Folks,

We're going to start looking for an es-300, probably mid-early 90s, 100k miles, that sort of thing. Two questions:

- What are the typical problems we should watch out for, when are the major services, etc.

- What should we expect to pay re mileage/year? (We're in California)

I already own a supra, and at 270k miles it has made me a toyota fan for life, engine hasn't been touched, and shifts like a new car.

Thanks!

Fred

[Lexusfreak]

Do a search on here in the FAQ's & check some websites out like Kelly blue book and the like for vehicle values. Best advice in a nutshell is make sure you have detailed service records & that the car is "original" and not involved in a major accident. If you have a reliable mechanic, take the car to him/her for a thorough inspection before you buy. If the dealer or private seller has a problem with that, find yourself another car! B) Good Luck! & welcome to the club!

[jragosta]

Another place to get used car prices is Edmunds.

Some of the published numbers are largely fiction - often created to either bias negotiations in favor of either the buyer or seller. Edmunds claims that their numbers are based on actual car sales in a region. They offer adjustment by color, condition, mileage, options, etc.

Beware, though-the condition adjustment is pretty substantial - and very subjective. My dealer tried to rate my last car 2 levels below where I had it rated.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/usedmatrix/Use...cnav.4.1.Lexus*

As an example, a silver 1995 ES300 with 120,000 miles in 'clean' condition and leather seats have a private party price of $7,677 (will vary with zip code).

I know that my opinion is outside the mainstream, but I'm not a big fan of buying expensive high mileage cars. How long do you expect this car to last? Perhaps 4 years? If you're going to buy a 9 year old car for $8 K and replace it every 4 years, you could lease a new car (not as nice as a Lexus, but not bad) for a similar amount of money.

True, if you think you're going to get 7 or 8 years out of this car, it makes sense. But most people won't get that long out of a car that already has 120 K miles - even a Lexus.

But that's just my opinion. Lots of people disagree with me.

Good luck.

[FredParoutaud]

Thanks for the excellent advice! I'll start digging a bit more. I agree, buying a high-mileage car (even a lexus) and expecting it to last forever, in perfect condition, is a pipe dream. Especially in this day and age. I am a porsche mechanic and it seems like a lot of this depends on the previous owner. Some take care of the car like it's a work of art, and some treat them like a beater for the grocery store.

I'll be back with more questions as I go...but does anybody know anything about leasing a "certified" used Lexus? For our purposes, that may work best, tho the newer ones seem quite expensive. I can't see spending $700/mo!! (Maybe for a new lambo :)

Thanks,

Fred

[SW03ES]

Most Lexus dealers won't even lease their Certified Pre Owned cars, it just doesn't work out. You could almost lease a new ES for what you would pay to lease a CPO one from Lexus (You can lease an ES300 for under $400 a month). The Money Factors are just all out of whack for the used cars. Plus, why lease something older that you might have to put some serious cash into (tires, brakes) when its not yours? The allure of leasing is you geta new car every 3 years and you never have to do any repairs, plus the tax benefits if you qualify.

I think what Jrag is saying makes a lot of sense. I see a lot of people on here buying 10, 11, even 14 year old cars and complaining about vibrations problems, worn mounts etc because "Its a Lexus and it should be perfect". 14 years is an entire lifetime of use, people expect too much from these cars.

[branshew]

As long as you know what you are getting into when you buy a used car, then you shouldn't have too many problems. People that buy a 10 year old car should expect to have some issues, regardless of the make/model - even a Lexus. As a Porsche mechanic I'm sure you know all about that. Regardless, I have two friends with early modes ES 300s that have over 200K and are still running fine.

My '95 ES 300 is approaching 120K and is still in excllent condition (but I maintain it well to keep it that way).

If you are interested in an early model, then go for a '95 or'96. There were some subtle changes on the '95 that carried through the '96 run. Plus, these are the last 2 production years of this model so Toyota should have the bugs worked out by then. To my knowledge, there are no major mechanical issues to look out for save the usual wear and tear items that one would expect to replace eventually on a 8-10 year old car.

Find one from down south (no rust) with one or two owners and a clean Carfax report and you should be OK. Shoot for under 100K if you can. There are still some out there with under 75K to be had, but you'll pay a little more.

[jragosta]

As long as you know what you are getting into when you buy a used car, then you shouldn't have too many problems. People that buy a 10 year old car should expect to have some issues, regardless of the make/model - even a Lexus. As a Porsche mechanic I'm sure you know all about that. Regardless, I have two friends with early modes ES 300s that have over 200K and are still running fine.

My '95 ES 300 is approaching 150K and is still in excllent condition (but I maintain it well to keep it that way).

Let's use your numbers. He's looking at buying a car with 120 K. You say you know some that are past 200 K. Let's say that 200 K is a fair target (I would argue that it's way too high, but we'll use it for argument's sake).

He's going to pay $8 K for a car like that (roughly). His depreciation will be $0.10 per mile. And that doesn't include the cost of any repairs, tires, brakes, etc. It also doesn't include resale value, but that's going to be pretty low by the time it hits 200 K miles.

For comparison, you can probably lease a brand new Camry for $0.15 per mile. My wife is leasing a new Volvo V70 for under $0.20 per mile.

As much as I like the Lexus, I personally can't see the value in that kind of deal - especially since you could get unlucky and only get 20 K miles out of it - or have to spend many thousands of dollars in repairs.

[FredParoutaud]

Thanks again, excellent posts. I'm giving up on the lease idea, I agree. And thanks for the tip on 95-96, nice to know they had some fixes/improvements in them. That's why I bought the 84 supra, it looks like an 82, but they ironed out some problems (like steering) and added suspension/motor upgrades -- I'm REALLY glad I bought the 84.

We're kind of thinking.... 95/96 es300, 80k miles. What should that be going for? $8000??? (when all is said and done, assuming a nice car)

Best,

Fred

[Lexusfreak]

You might want to check out the used car section of the consumers guide website or purchase the used car book at your local book store. It's on their "recommended" list & an excellent write up! B) Try MSN auto's as well.

[jragosta]

Thanks again, excellent posts. I'm giving up on the lease idea, I agree. And thanks for the tip on 95-96, nice to know they had some fixes/improvements in them. That's why I bought the 84 supra, it looks like an 82, but they ironed out some problems (like steering) and added suspension/motor upgrades -- I'm REALLY glad I bought the 84.

We're kind of thinking.... 95/96 es300, 80k miles. What should that be going for? $8000??? (when all is said and done, assuming a nice car)

Probably higher than that. Try the Edmunds site I listed above.

[tundra-lover]

I've been doing this for a long time now, and for the best price guesstimate- I would highly recommend calling your bank. Your bank has what your area is using for loan values. Usually most areas use different value books such as Edmunds or Kelly, or my personal favorite and more acurate NADA which you can look up on NADA.com. The next thing I would recommend is looking at your local AutoTrader magazine to see what they are going for. The difference between areas can be as much as a couple grand.

I would not suggest going to a dealership, unless its the Lexus dealership- only because they may have sunk some money into it. Other than that you will have no idea what services have been done unless the car was serviced there. Try to stick with a private owner, with RECORDS. I keep a personal notebook, and binder with every reciept and log for period I own a vehicle. I personally have never had a vehicle for sale longer than a week. Look also for a clean one, as the dirt can hide many inperfections that may come to light down the road.

Maintained, these cars will go forever! Just don't get in a hurry, and settle for something. I just recently found a 95 with a little over 66k on it, and could have shot myself for not buying it. The best word of advice I can give, is make sure you get what you want to ensure your happiness. If you want leather, get it! etc.... I wouldn't get to worried about the miles as long as you know what work has been done to the car, and you can come up with a list of possible replacement parts in your future budget expenditures.

When you go look at a car, take your notebook with you and note everything about the car: Do the tires look good, belts, brakes, tranny service, receipts etc...

Then tally up the numbers, and pick the best one. If you are not sure, its a sign to keep looking. If they don't have any records, keep looking. Generaly, when you find the right one, you'll know it! Its kind of like shoping for a mate I guess? So that would make me more of a fisherman (can't keep a car for very long).

[Lexusfreak]

If you go the private route, make sure you take it to a reliable mechanic before anything else as well (even with service records!), if you don't have one, talk with friends & family as to where they take their cars to be fixed/maintained. Paying a small fee for a couple of hours labour is a small price to pay instead of getting stuck with thousands of dollars of possible problems that you were not aware of. I even took my 01 ES to MY mechanic even though I bought it at my Lexus dealer & it was still under factory warranty. Some might call that overkill......let's put it this way, I was double sure I didn't get a lemon. As parts are not exactly cheap for a Lexus. ;) B)

[branshew]

Let's use your numbers. He's looking at buying a car with 120 K. You say you know some that are past 200 K. Let's say that 200 K is a fair target (I would argue that it's way too high, but we'll use it for argument's sake).

He's going to pay $8 K for a car like that (roughly). His depreciation will be $0.10 per mile. And that doesn't include the cost of any repairs, tires, brakes, etc. It also doesn't include resale value, but that's going to be pretty low by the time it hits 200 K miles.

For comparison, you can probably lease a brand new Camry for $0.15 per mile. My wife is leasing a new Volvo V70 for under $0.20 per mile.

As much as I like the Lexus, I personally can't see the value in that kind of deal - especially since you could get unlucky and only get 20 K miles out of it - or have to spend many thousands of dollars in repairs.

I think you read my post completely wrong! I was making no attempt to cost justify his options. Most people look at buying new or late model used when comparing to a lease. Why would the concept of buying a 10 year old car ever come into play with the option of leasing a new car? I wasn't looking at leasing as an option at all, just trying to help him in the decision to buy (which it seems like he had already made up his mind to do).

I don't know what type of mileage he's looking at buying, but I believe it was @100K from his original post not 120K as you stated. I've seen many well maintained cars that go to 200K + (esp. Japanese). I'm not sure where the $8,000 came from, but nothing around here goes for that much. I wouldn't pay anything over $6800 for a 95-96 unless it had under 75K and all receipts.

Regardless...

This guy is a mechanic so I am also assuming that his cost of repairs will be lower than average since labor is "free." I would also assume that he maintains his cars well in order to keep them running.

After 3 years, he could be $12000 into a $300/month lease (including cash down up front) with nothing to show after that. If he gets a good deal on the Lexus at $7000 and puts $3000 in repairs into it, then he still comes out ahead. (as you mentioned though you never know w/ used.)

At this point I would guess that he is going to drive the car into the ground and is probably not looking at resale value at the end of 3 years. However, if he does try to resell it later, he will at least have something left (even if it's only $500) and that is more than you have at the end of a lease which is nothing.

[tundra-lover]

Well, not alway true. I've leased a few cars, and ended up selling them before the lease was up- for sometimes much more than owed, and usually pocketing up to $3000. I haven't leased in a couple years, but I'm not sure how good the rates are anymore? The trick is to get a car with high demand, and only lease max of 3 years. I still think buying used is the best from experience.

[FredParoutaud]

Thanks everybody! All good advice.

First of all (off the top of my head) I'd say you're right about leasing a new Camrey, I was just discussing that with my wife. My point AGAINST that is that you don't get a Lexus! :-D Other than that's it's probably a good way to go.

Yeah, I deal with a lot of "exotic" problems working on Porsche 928 electronics, so I'm not terribly concerned about getting into a black hole, as long as I can get a wiring diagram (I'm assuming they are available here somewhere?). I know toyota/lexus parts can be expensive, but I've had good luck continuing to find supra parts pretty cheap. The off-brands don't last that long, but ultimately, when you find the problem areas you just deal with the problem.

My main concern is buying a car that immediately needs a major repair, like tranny, something silly like that.

We've driven 3 cars now, and all 3 are pretty good. One has fallen off the list cuz the dealer seems a bit "greasy" and less than honest, and the car has some chassis rust (minor, but a sign of things to come me thinks) and rear end noise. The car has 85k miles which isn't bad, but seems to me these problems shouldn't be there with a good car.

The second one is pretty nice, except for a noise which sounds like it could be disc brake noise after a good washing. Rust on the rotors... That's what the dealer says it is, but frankly, that should go away after a block or so, and it didn't. Any idea what kind of noise that could be? Sound like a steady "squeak" from under the car as you drive, and I can't say if it changes much with speed. We're going back today to retest drive that one, and I'll listen more carefully. But any suggestions are appreciated.

The third one is the one -- no problems at all. Drives great, no weird noises, very clean and straight. A few dings, but very minor (unless you ask my wife about them!) Very nice machine, and same price as the others with only 80k miles. Seems like a new car, and is from a dry (and expensive) climate, which might explain its condition.

All asking prices are basically $9999. What do you all think we should get the car for? If I offer $8000 and "walk" will they run after me??

Again, thanks for the excellent posts. This is a great site! :)

Fred

[3ztwint]

I would think that an 8K cash offer would be good enough to gen a gen1 es300, even with under 100k. It seems like there is a lot of variation in price dependant upon where the car is being sold, as I'm sure that the cars are a bit more pricey in cali, but I think that, dependant upon year, 8 grand is a fair offer that a dealer would consider.

J

[amf1932]

If I offer $8000 and "walk" will they run after me??

Dealers hate to have you leave their showroom so you have nothing to lose by trying that game. ;)

[FredParoutaud]

Hi Folks,

Just looked at a couple of es-300s, and I have a couple of questions:

- Is it "normal" to hear a bit of belt/bearing noise from the right front of the car as you drive? Kind of a whispy, metallic sound -- nothing really bad, but it's there. I ask because I've heard it on 2 of the cars now. Might even be power steering or alternator bearings or belt.

- Do most of the cars have some oil on the frame rails on either side of the motor? Again, not bad, but enough to make things wet. Is there any typical place it's coming from?

- One of the cars we looked at was having motor mounts replaced -- is that typical? It had a "klunk" when changing from park to drive, and they said they had one more motor mount to replace. (Back I believe)

- How about cracked headlight covers (glass) -- is that pretty common? Are they expensive to replace? (same with tail lights)

We're down to 2 nice cars, both around 80k miles, both a little pricey at almost $10k, but both straight, clean, very nice machines. And I guess we could negotiate down from there.

Thanks,

Fred

[jragosta]

Hi Folks,

Just looked at a couple of es-300s, and I have a couple of questions:

- Is it "normal" to hear a bit of belt/bearing noise from the right front of the car as you drive? Kind of a whispy, metallic sound -- nothing really bad, but it's there. I ask because I've heard it on 2 of the cars now. Might even be power steering or alternator bearings or belt.

- Do most of the cars have some oil on the frame rails on either side of the motor? Again, not bad, but enough to make things wet. Is there any typical place it's coming from?

- One of the cars we looked at was having motor mounts replaced -- is that typical? It had a "klunk" when changing from park to drive, and they said they had one more motor mount to replace. (Back I believe)

- How about cracked headlight covers (glass) -- is that pretty common? Are they expensive to replace? (same with tail lights)

We're down to 2 nice cars, both around 80k miles, both a little pricey at almost $10k, but both straight, clean, very nice machines. And I guess we could negotiate down from there.

Thanks,

Fred

For $10 K, I'd expect a car that's cleaner than you're describing. There shouldn't be oil hanging around and funny noises are a no-no.

If you really have your heart set on spending that kind of money on a 10 year old car, I'd do one of two things. Offer the dealer $9 _IF HE GIVE YOU A GOOD WARRANTY_. Alternatively, offer him $8 or 8500 and buy your own extended warranty.

There's no way in the world I'd even consider spending that kind of money on a car that old without some kind of warranty.

[blake918]

- Do most of the cars have some oil on the frame rails on either side of the motor?  Again, not bad, but enough to make things wet.  Is there any typical place it's coming from?

I wouldn't be too alarmed by this unless you can pin point the oil leak or ooze. On the ES, the oil filter is up high right under an exhaust manifold. It is very possible that you are seeing oil from a prior oil change. I have the Toyota dealer change my oil, and smoke(spilled oil that is burning) is always coming from under the hood when they pull it back around.

Having any kind of mount/bushing/ect. changed is normal on an older car. For $10k, you could find a nicer, slightly higher mileage '97+(I test drove a '97 w/ 90k going for $9500 when I was looking for a second Lex.). I'd maybe consider $8k for a perfect 95-96 with under 100k; $10k is just way too much-warranty or no warranty.

Also, you might want to check out a '94 too. IMO, it's the most special year for the first gen. ES300; it's got the 1MZFE like the 95-96 with the looks of the 92-93 and the few updated features inside that are only in '94+. It's got a little from both model runs. :D

[FredParoutaud]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the info. I'm kind of wondering if the price seems high because we live in a very expensive area! Super here is stil about 2.50/gal, and the median house is going for almost $600k. Good old San Francisco! Beautiful, but tres expensive.

Anyways, I hear what you're saying. This is an auction car from the big Tracy auction. My next door neighbor goes there, and he figures they bought the car at auction for $7000, and wouldn't go under $9000. However, I like your thinking -- maybe we can get some sort of warrantee thrown in. They're already going for new tires, they've already fixed the antenna and aligned the front tires -- and we're not even dealing yet!

I'm always a bit concerned about oil when I don't know where it's coming from. I'm goign to get the car checked out Monday and see if they can tell, hopefully it's something like you described -- that would be nice.

There are some cheaper cars out there, no doubt, but they all seem to be well over 100k miles. FWIW, I do like the fact that these are around 80k. At least I'd be able to get my hands on them earlier in their careers, and maybe get the proper maintenance schedule going and get some serious miles out of the car. I don't see why these babys can't do 300k before major work. What do you think?

Fred

[jragosta]

There are some cheaper cars out there, no doubt, but they all seem to be well over 100k miles. FWIW, I do like the fact that these are around 80k. At least I'd be able to get my hands on them earlier in their careers, and maybe get the proper maintenance schedule going and get some serious miles out of the car. I don't see why these babys can't do 300k before major work. What do you think?

Don't let optimism get in the way of making an [expensive] decision that needs to be completely rational.

Is it possible for a Lexus to go 300K miles? Sure. But I wouldn't count on it - especially since you're buying an auction car with unknown history. Even planning on 200 K is a stretch - unless you're willing to spend a ton in maintenance.

If I were buying a brand new one and planning to keep it until it died, I might use 200 K as my target (more likely, 150 K). NOT on a 10 year old one with unknown maintenance history.

[Lex3486]

Not neccesarily dead on topic, but thought I'd share. My whole family and some of my extended family (thanks to us) are die-hard Toyota fans. Probably reason being is my dad's 88 Supra. He bought this car with around 120k miles and drove it till it had over 280k I believe (somewhere up there) and never did anything to the car except replace the clutch (normal on any 5 speed that old) and head gaskets (a very common Supra and, as I've learned, ES300 problem). Oh, and the plastic radiator, but that was as a result of the head gaskets. So yeah, thanks to that wonderful machine, we're fans for life, just recently turned Lexus fans for life. It's like Toyota's build quality and reliability with the fit and finish you can only find in a Lexus. Does life get any better? I submit that it does not! B)

Here's our list of Toyotas from past & present

-82(?) Celica Supra

-85 Supra M/T

-88 Supra M/T

-92 Lexus ES300

-93 Lexus ES300

-96 Lexus ES300

-92 Land Cruiser

(the last 3 we currently own)

and here's the ones my relatives own(ed) thanks to our good experience

(most switched over from Fords and Dodges, the latter of which my family did as well)

-96 Avalon

-92 Land Cruiser

-97 Land Cruiser

-00 ES300

-97 Sienna

And every one of these cars was bought pre-owned, except the Avalon, and my 93 ES is the only one that's ever given us any problems to speak of (tranny)

Best of luck to ya! Hope you have as much as we have!

[FredParoutaud]

Hey, Thanks! Yeah, I'm a huge toyota fan, for a number of reasons. I'm glad to hear all your purchases were used...I've owned at least a dozen cars, and none of them were new. What I primarily look for is a good "frame" to work with, something that hasn't been hit. I figure everything else is probably going to wear out anyway, but at least I can have a "good solid foundation" to build on.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I should have a report on the "new" car tomorrow.

Cheers,

Fred

[tundra-lover]

Here in Utah, we have a law for vehicle purchase that states a return policy up to seven days after purchase. You may want to also check out your local laws, just incase you run into some problems. Sounds like your doing a good job! Oh, if you decide you like one you may want to stop by a local body shop to have them check it out. A lot of delearships will buy them wrecked, and the shop can tell you exactly what has been replaced or painted (for your own benefit).