rob_es350

this is a company press release, not an article from a reviewing magazine or something similar

:You must have inadvertently hit the toggle switch that changes the display. It's easy to do. cycle though the different dislpay options with the button on the steering wheel, that is what you hit inadvertantly everyone like to keep a different one displayed..my preference is to usually display the tank mpg when I get low on gas, I sonmetimes watch the remaining miles which is way off, you have more than it says

Not sure if this has been posted yet..didnt want to look thru entire thread to see..sorry if it is a repeat... The ES 350 cruises into the 2012 model year virtually unchanged except for the new Nebula Gray Pearl exterior, which replaces Smoky Granite Mica; and the discontinuation of Peridot Mica.

o, there is one I agree with 100% - at least have it as an option, so lexus could pass the additional cost right along if fact the majority of the enthusiastic thoughts here have been related to making the car either perform or look a bit sportier makes sense, that is where the competing cars are leaning we have a good focus group going here..perhaps lexus is monitoring this site, lol

just make sure they are tight, lol no, don't know, but I think the quickest way to get the answer would be to call a Lexus service shop and see what setting they use

Actually I was agreeing with your agreement LOL. So...I think we're all in agreement! LOL ok, I just re-read your reply..yeah, we are in total agreement on this one

Its absurd! You have the 3, which is still more than the ES and half the size, you have the 5 which is about the same size as the ES, albeit more car with a RWD drivetrain etc. To equip it like the ES its $60k! The only cars that can even be compared to the ES in equipment for money is the Hyundai Genesis, the Chrysler 300, or the Buick Lacrosse, and none of them have the brand prestige or ownership experience, nor the resale value. you MISUNDRSTOOD, lol I was completely agreeing with you that the es is a ton for your money..that is the primary reason I bought it then I said try and get a comparable beemer with all that stuff, and o boy, meaning price would be way high, exactly as you say, 60k for the 5 series (for equiv size) with the options and I don't have a beemer, lol, perhaps you are thinking of someone else

I had a ton of trouble in the snow, but ground clearance could have easily been the issue

Did you look at the GS with AWD? yes, liked it lot, but didn't think it was worth the price difference for that money, probably would have bought one of the competitors, likely a bmw

Seeing that its Lexus' bestselling car the buying public obviously disagrees. In fact I think the ES is a tremendous value for the money, which is why I've bought two I suppose. I get a *lot* of compliments on the Lexus. My ES stickered at $41k, when you look at the equipment for the money...its a pretty good value. My favorite vehicle in the Lexus line is still the LS, and I almost bought 3 year old CPO LS's before my '03 ES and my 350. Each time thought I went with the ES mainly because it was new, but I would suggest that you drive a 460 back to back with the ES before deciding to do that. The LS is more car without question, but the differences are pretty subtle nowadays when you aren't switching back between them all the time. I describe it as "When you drive the LS you think "I have to have this car", but then when you get back into the ES you start to think "This is pretty close" and you don't really miss the LS. Before I decided I did that, drove an '07 LS460, and the new ES back to back to back to back. So...I don't know if I would say theres $25,000 in quantitative difference between them anymore. I prefer the RWD architecture, but as someone else said when you don't push it, its not that apparent and neither the LS or the ES are the type of car you'd feel the need to push. To Tim, you have to pay to play. You can't be down on the ES for being as you described it the "best in class". Its an entry level luxury car, want $70k refinement? Gotta spend $70k or buy a used one. agree huge..no question that you get a ton for your one with the ES try loading up a beemer with everything the ES has, o boy

I thought that cars in the ES350 price range were usually considered to be "near luxury" or "entry level luxury" cars. Although the differences between the Lexus ES and the Toyota Camry have been increased somewhat over the past ten or so years, they still have much in common and the Camry certainly isn't considered to be a luxury car or even an entry level luxury car. Maybe the ES will be seen in a little different light after the larger Avalon based 2013 ES is introduced. It really gets down to what you think a luxury car is. To some, the ES is a wonderful luxury car. In some circles, the LS is not considered a luxury car. Just buy what you like and don't worry about labels. Besides, as I've said before, if a car doesn't have accommodations on the order of what is shown in the attached photos, then it is not a luxury car at all. lol, good one, pics of limos, eh

with ya, that would be the 2nd item on my list

if you could have lexus change/add one thing to your es what would it be?? for me, it is a no-brainer, AWD..was the toughest thing for me to compromise on when buying the car, and after last winter, wow, felt even stronger about it other thoughts?

Call me crazy, but when I spend $45,000 on something I usually look at it first before I sign the check. Did you see your car or drive it before you bought it? Every single dislike you list for your ES is something one would expect a potential buyer to weed out in the shopping process. All of your dislikes are legitimate, but are also personal preferences; things based on ones personal taste such as color, shape, sound level, etc. It just seems a waste that you would have purchased a car that you truly don't like when there are so many other choices out there. must have had a heck of s salesman

wow, someone who has more complaints than me my complaints though have been with the feel..handling, braking, etc, whereas yours are primary the aesthetics, which I like

completely agree that is perception, and agree again that the hyundai would not qualify as "luxury" seems from the way sales data is broken out, etc., that the industry also agrees

Then you yourself are saying that this data does not support your statement that buyers who otherwise would have bought luxury cars are buying mid market cars. This is what you said: So if you are now saying this: So...what ARE you saying? This is the crux of what you don't understand, the mid market auto market and the luxury marked are different markets, with different buyers and demographics. This is why I said superficially I can see where you are drawing this conclusion (although...you said in your post you disagree with your own conclusion so I don't see the purpose of this discussion at all). You can make a determination of overall automotive market share from this data, but since the mid market and luxury markets are different markets, that determination is meaningless. Ford doesn't compare their share to Mercedes, because they aren't direct competitors...for instance. I backed off the conclusion I posted because the limited data I supplied was too short term to make that determination however, I disagree confidently that the data is meaningless, and disagree again that only direct competitors matter to car manufacturers now that we agree(probably always did) with the definition of overall market share, it is a more narrow disagreement on the significance of that data to any one individual segment of course they care!..way less in the short term as the focus is, as it should be, on the direct competition, but if share continues to grow relative to a particular segment, that segment is going to care in a huge way think about it in a longer term trend..take it to its illogical, or silly end if the trend continued indefinitely...the segment losing share would be eliminated that is why segments DO look at other segments for trends that are selling/not selling, and steal, lol, well, borrow, ideas where they can be applied, and avoid other trends where they might prove detrimental to sales brand identity is not fixed, and can never be taken for granted..one day's joke, is the next day's luxury jackpot this thread started with the hyundai/lexus debate, which is one example of where we might be seeing change

I think you need to do a little research into how statistics work and how to interpret them. I can tell you as a businessman who routinely looks at reports pertaining to market share that you aren't correct. Superficially I see where you are coming from, but what I'm trying to tell you is that its not that simple. The data you are looking at can be used to make inferences about market share in the same market segment, so you can see that Toyota and Honda has shrinking market share compared to that of Hyundai, which is growing. However, you cannot use this data to infer that the market share of entire market segments. You can compare them within market segments, but not across market segments, and you cannot compare the comparative share of the market segments themselves with this data. What you are asserting is that mid market carmakers are TAKING buyers away from luxury carmakers, and theres just nothing in this data that proves that. It shows that mid market carmakers are growing more, but there is no corollary relationship displayed here. Its like saying Neiman Marcus has sold less, and Kohls has sold more, so Neiman Marcus buyers must be shopping at Kohls. It doesn't mean that at all. They may be shopping at Nordstrom, they may not be shopping at all... no, you do not understand I already AGREED that slower growing segments, does not necessarily imply buyers have moved...we do not need to dispute something where we both agree, so stop it, please, lol I am explaining to you the definition of market share, and even provided an example, and you came back making the same point where we did not have a debate please take a look at my example, or look up the definition of market share..there is nothing superficial about the point I am making the point I am making is straightforward and correct the faster growers, are growing share, I mean this is econ 101 the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market the faster growers are increasing their percentage of the overall market that is not a typo, I wrote it twice for emphasis

You're assigning your own bias into this data. Just because the luxury car segment is not growing at the same rate as the mid market segment doesn't mean that luxury car buyers are buying mid market cars instead of luxury cars. It means...that all segments are growing, its just mid market segments are growing more. It could mean many other things, that luxury car owners are keeping their cars longer, that there aren't as many new luxury car models as new mid market car models out in 2011 vs 2010 that would skew the data. For instance, Honda shows a fairly big decline in sales from 2010 to 2011, using your logic that means Honda buyers must be buying Mercedes...since their numbers are up. It doesn't mean that at all. You are also assuming that a carmaker would view flat sales from 2010 to 2011 as a bad thing. The data you are looking for is not included in this link you've shown us. "market share" mean the % of cars vs the rest..so our difference is simply a matter of the interpretation of that term luxury cars are losing share that does not mean that luxury car owners are buying cars in other segments as you point out if one segment is growing less than the others, you are losing share, it is just that simple, the reason doesn't matter to make that statement perhaps an example: if there are 1000 cars total in the world with only 2 segments each having a 50% share, if segment A does not grow, and segment B grows 50%, segment B now has 60% of the share..for whatever reason

I agree. Luxury car sales are doing fine and Lexus specifically, has been able to sell all of the inventory it can produce after the quake. Remember June and July?..., when everyone was complaining about not having any new or pre-owned inventory because they were selling out of their in-house stock and not getting anything out of Japan? Just reading the post on various web-sites and reading the auto enthusiast press, it seems pretty obvious that people are eager for, and buying luxury cars at a pretty steady clip. For what ever reason, buyers are confident in their purchase regardless of the economy. Perhaps it is a way of saying I am living and working through hell, and I have survived so this is my family's reward. Wealthy people are usually not affected by recession. If you have $100 million, it doesn't matter if your net worth drops down to $80 million, you can still buy any car you wish. The luxury segment is usually unaffected by difficult economic time. it was devastated by the financial crisis

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there... It's sort of bifurcated. Some are doing better than they ever have like BMW, while others are floundering like Lincoln. Lexus has been losing mkt share as has Acura. For Lexus a lot of it has to do with a confluence of many things. Lexus product cycle right now is a bit long in the tooth with many models due for overhaul in the next few years. Not to mention bad PR from the unintended acceleration BS and a brand image problem for building precise, reliable, boring, appliance-like vehicles. The financial crisis has made the yen very strong and harder for Japanese exports, and the tsunami has made a bad situation worse. agree

steve, year over year % change is the worst for luxury cars, other than large cars/SUVS that means that they are losing share to ALL other categories the most recent quarter does show a big improvement, so perhaps the crash is behind them for now

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there... after the crash, I believe sales for everything are up except for the real low gas mileage cars however,the luxury market recovered the least, if I am recalling correctly meaining that they lost share to everything else I will find a link to some data that is easily understandable..some of this stuff requires a bit of reading and interpretation here is a good one with year over year, and ytd right up front..real interesting data on the other charts there too http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

Do you have some kind of source for this? All the data I've seen has shown that luxury car sales are hanging in there... after the crash, I believe sales for everything are up except for the real low gas mileage cars however,the luxury market recovered the least, if I am recalling correctly meaining that they lost share to everything else I will find a link to some data that is easily understandable..some of this stuff requires a bit of reading and interpretation

decades is a loooong, time...loyalties can fall way quicker than that imo look, the luxury car market is in trouble from all over..showrooms are empty and sales are horrible the luxury market is losing share to it's so called "non-luxury" competitors and that trend should continue feature rich cars are all over the place and at reasonable price points..sooo many all wheel drives, etc, available that really are great cars, though the reliability will take some time to rival the Japanese nissan recently built a new showroom replacing an older one not too far from me, and it is empty day after day, even weekends..lot is filled with unsold cars...pretty much the same for all the dealerships, at least in my area hey, money is dirt cheap, awesome time to buy a car if in good shape financially