2013 Lexus Gs 350 F Sport Vs Mercedes-Benz E350 Vs Bmw 535I Race Track

[The G Man]

Have anybody seen this video of the 2013 Lexus GS 350 F Sport vs Mercedes-Benz E350 vs BMW 535i? It looks like Lexus is pretty serious about making the new GS handle as well as the German counterpart.

[SW03ES]

Thats a great video, thanks for posting!

[cduluk]

Why does it seem like Lexus is going backwards with performance? This new 2013 GS350 had better "handle" like a dream, because it's just as slow as Lexus' 1998 GS400... oh wait, slower!

Here's some interesting data:

from

2013 Lexus GS350 "Product Information":

http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_download.cfm?article_id=3258

2013 Lexus GS350 F-SPORT "Press Information":

http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013/FSport/pdf/2013_GS350withFSPORT_PressReleaseFinal.pdf

2013 Lexus GS450h "Press Information":

http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013/hybrid/pdf/GS450h_pressrelease.pdf

It's amazing to me that Lexus would put out a new "performance" model such as the 2013 GS, that's slower than the previous generations. It looks like the 07-11 GS450h is going to remain the "quickest" sedan Lexus has ever produced (minus the IS-F...) until they can beat the 0-60 in 5.2 second mark.

Is the better "handling" in the 2013 really worth it? The BMW 5 Series is "quicker", faster, looks IDENTICAL thanks to Lexus' lack of creativity, and most likely will win in terms of how it handles (as evidenced in the video above).

Maybe i'll have to wait to see the thing in person... But on paper, personally, i'm not impressed.

[The G Man]

Interesting data, any info on the weight difference between the different gens of GS? The 2013 is a tad slower, and you are right, it should perform better than the last gen, not go backward.

The BMW 535i is about the same as the 2013 GS350 from 0-60. Interesting that they did not comapare the new Audi A6 3.0T to those 3 cars, most of the reviews has the A6 ahead of the 535i in both accelartion and handling.

Here is a video of the same two guys comparing the A6 to the 535i:

[cduluk]

Here's the chart updated with the curb weights of each generation GS. The 2013's seem to be about 100 lb's heavier than the previous. And i agree the Audi seems to kill the rest in performance...

I'm not sure what Lexus is trying to achieve with these new models... Couldn't they exchange a little gas mileage for quicker performance? I can't imagine sports sedan buyers care about the 1 mpg improvement over the previous generations model. As far as i can see, the only thing the 2013's have that were lacking in the previous generations, is the "extra big" navigation screen and that "mouse" thing to navigate it. Oh, and better "handling"... If someone wants better handling why not just buy the BMW or the Audi? I don't see anything this 2013 GS offers that the rest don't have. I would say "reliability", but who knows with these new Lexus'...

[The G Man]

Here's the chart updated with the curb weights of each generation GS. The 2013's seem to be about 100 lb's heavier than the previous. And i agree the Audi seems to kill the rest in performance...

I'm not sure what Lexus is trying to achieve with these new models... Couldn't they exchange a little gas mileage for quicker performance? I can't imagine sports sedan buyers care about the 1 mpg improvement over the previous generations model. As far as i can see, the only thing the 2013's have that were lacking in the previous generations, is the "extra big" navigation screen and that "mouse" thing to navigate it. Oh, and better "handling"... If someone wants better handling why not just buy the BMW or the Audi? I don't see anything this 2013 GS offers that the rest don't have. I would say "reliability", but who knows with these new Lexus'...

Lexus sure does seem like they are going backwards as far as weight, the GS350 have gain almost 200 pounds since the 1st gen. Even with all the added electronics and safety items in the new Lexus, the additional weight should have been compensated with light weight material and engineering.

I think Lexus have squeeze most of the power out of this 3.5L engine already. To gain significant more power, it will need a new engine or some sort of force induction.

The big screen is nice, but 1/3 of it is use for other controls, so the screen is not really any bigger than the competition. Also, we are talking about a car here, its not a video game or a TV set we are buying. How well the GS handles remain to be seen, the 1st video already said the BMW had better steering. The GS in that video also have the F-sport package, for it to be a fair comparo, the 5 series should have had the M-sport package and the E350 should have the AMG package.

As far as reliability, my old 2008 GS350 spend more time in the shop than my German counterparts. All my other Lexus has been very reliable, my GS350 was an exception.

[SW03ES]

Well...before you condemn performance of the 2013 GS...remember that the 2013 you're talking about is the V6 and the 1998 you're talking about is the V8. Compare the 2013 GS350 to the 1998 GS300 and look at the difference.

[The G Man]

Another interesting comparison on that chart is the weight difference between the older V8 GS and the new V6 GS. The 2013 GS350 is almost a 100 pounds heavier than the 91 GS400 and the 2001 GS430 V8.

I still think Lexus is heading in the right direction with the new GS. I had a 08 GS350, while it was a pretty quick car, it just didnt handle too well, the total sport sedan experience was lacking. If the new GS can handle even close to BMW and Audi, then it is a step forward. My guess is that a more powerful engine will be introduce at a later time.

[cduluk]

Oh no doubt, the 1998 GS300 does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, which is slow.

What I find interesting is the fact that the 98 GS400, even with the V8, gets the same performance with only slightly less mpg ratings as the new generation models. I was expecting much greater differences considering they're manufactured 13 years apart.

And look at the 2011 GS460! The performance is outstanding, with only a few mpg less than the 2013. This just proves they can make a V8 that yields outstanding performance with only little loss to mpg ratings. Why didn't they throw a 4.6L in the 2013? Why not at least make it an option?

[The G Man]

And look at the 2011 GS460! The performance is outstanding, with only a few mpg less than the 2013. This just proves they can make a V8 that yields outstanding performance with only little loss to mpg ratings. Why didn't they throw a 4.6L in the 2013? Why not at least make it an option?

I agree, Lexus should have put the 4.6L V8 in the new GS as an option and the 8 speed tranny as well. I hope Lexus design enough space under the hood for a future V8.

[pj8708]

I hope I'm not butting in, but in reading the postings a question came to mind and I wondered what your responses would be.

Assuming all things were equal between all three cars mentioned in the beginning; the same engine specs..horse power,cylinders, mpg, etc: the same curb weight, the same number of gears and ratios, the same 0-60 time, the same top end, the same fuel injection system, the same fuel type, the same color and type of paint with the same drag coefficient, you get the picture,

Of the three, again ALL exactly like the other, which one would you buy.....Lexus...Merceds.....BMW?

[The G Man]

I hope I'm not butting in, but in reading the postings a question came to mind and I wondered what your responses would be.

Assuming all things were equal between all three cars mentioned in the beginning; the same engine specs..horse power,cylinders, mpg, etc: the same curb weight, the same number of gears and ratios, the same 0-60 time, the same top end, the same fuel injection system, the same fuel type, the same color and type of paint with the same drag coefficient, you get the picture,

Of the three, again ALL exactly like the other, which one would you buy.....Lexus...Merceds.....BMW?

Thats an easy one, if all specs are the same, I would buy the Lexus of course. It is more relaible and has better dealership, but they are not all the same. Each excels at different areas, it all depends on the buyer's priority.

[cduluk]

I hope I'm not butting in, but in reading the postings a question came to mind and I wondered what your responses would be.

Assuming all things were equal between all three cars mentioned in the beginning; the same engine specs..horse power,cylinders, mpg, etc: the same curb weight, the same number of gears and ratios, the same 0-60 time, the same top end, the same fuel injection system, the same fuel type, the same color and type of paint with the same drag coefficient, you get the picture,

Of the three, again ALL exactly like the other, which one would you buy.....Lexus...Merceds.....BMW?

If all three, the E-Class, 5-Series, and GS all looked identical, had the same specs, etc... without a doubt i would pick the BMW first, followed by the Mercedes, with the Lexus last. I only say this because BMW has the most "sports car" appeal. BMW doesn't advertise itself as being a leader in "luxury", but rather in "performance". Everyone who drives a BMW expects an outstanding performance, not a wood steering wheel and soft leather... So if i'm out to purchase a "sports car" sedan, i'd want the best of the best. And i'm sorry, but BMW has it all; from the actual performance, to the name.

The 2013 GS was created with the intent of competing against the BMW. Lexus wants people to consider the new GS to be a "sports sedan". The engineers copied the 5-Series' interior PERFECTLY, and they tried to make it "handle" like it too. Lexus ACTUALLY believes that the everyday egotistical "sports car" buyer is going to buy the GS over the already appointed king of the performance world, BMW. This might be true if the GS performed equal or BETTER than the BMW, but in reality it doesn't- it's actually worse.

It's like the argument between the Genesis and the LS. For years, the LS has been the leader in "luxury". Then all of a sudden, Hyundai, who came out of nowhere, decided that they'd try to compete with Lexus. Do you REALLY think the Genesis will ever win against Mercedes and Lexus? Maybe, if the interior quality and overall appeal of the Genesis becomes better than Lexus-but it's not, and probably won't. Lexus is the better choice if you want a luxury car.

I just don't see what the 2013 GS offers to the "sports car" buyer, that the BMW hasn't already mastered. It looks the same, is a lesser performer, and based on the interior "fit and finish" of a few recent Lexus models, will probably have equal luxury qualities. So why would anyone pick the GS? BMW's not only got the goods, but it's also got the history of being some of the best performing sedans in this category. Unless the GS can "one up" the BMW, it's just a "wanna-be".

I don't feel the same way about the previous generation GS's however. My own personal opinion, is that the previous gen GS is the PERFECT car for the buyer who wants the most luxurious sedan without sacrificing performance (someone like me). I've never considered the GS to be a "sports sedan" like the 5-Series, or Audi, etc. And apparently neither has anyone else, based on how poorly it's sold in comparison to BMW and the like. It appears that the average GS buyer buys it because of Lexus' history with luxury and reliability. It's the best combination between luxury and performance.

Think about the 07-11 GS450h. I think of it as an ES350 juiced up with power. Without question, in terms of having a "luxurious" interior both in feel and appearance, it makes the 5-series look like a Kia. The BMW's interior is all plastic, lacks all "touch-ability", and the leather is rougher than vinyl on an old computer chair. It's clear that the 07-11 GS interior is "unique" and very "Lexus-like". Easily the winner in terms of luxury. As for the exterior, again, very unique.

But what i like most about the 07-11 GS is that it has a secret. It may look like a boring old Lexus, but it certainly doesn't act like it. When you get in the 07-11 GS450h and hit the pedal, WOAH. I've had the pleasure of driving the GS450h several times, and i have to say the thing is an absolute ROCKET, especially in terms of passing power. I thought the hybrid system in my Rx400h produced a lot of torque! The amount of torque created by the GS450h when you press that pedal is unreal. I would LOVE to drive around for a day, pulling up to BMW's and Audi's, who haven't the slightest clue how much i could embarrass them in terms of acceleration. The 07-11 GS450h is faster from 0-60 than ANYTHING else in its size and price range. Yet, it looks and "feels" like a Lexus. And did i mention it's a HYBRID?? It really is a true winner in this sense.

But i can't say the same for the 2013 GS... It no longer looks like a Lexus. A blind man could realize Lexus was clearly copying the 5-Series with its new interior. And the front nose, with that "Mitsubishi" thing going on... It's clear Lexus is trying to make a new image for the GS, and it's not consistent with the "Lexus" image i've come to love.

There are already too many "sports sedans" out there, with BMW, Audi, Infiniti, Acura, etc... I don't think they need another. In my opinion the 2013 GS doesn't belong in that list just yet. It lacks the history, and apparently the goods based on what the stats are telling me. The "handling" on the 2013 GS is going to have to be REALLY good to counterweight its loss in acceleration/speed from last years models. The only thing the 2013 has over the previous gens, is a more "sports car" appearance.

But a lot of good that will do, when buyers find out it's slower than the previous generations. And i'm sure they'll thank Lexus for the better gas mileage on the 2013 GS450h vs the previous gen, even if it sacrifices a half second from 0-60 (which is a LOT). Seriously... what is Lexus thinking? Do they want this thing to be a better performer or get better mileage? Who buys a GS over a 5-Series because it gets better gas mileage??

I hope the bluffed exterior is enough to fool people... because it's lost the niche it's dominated for the past couple of years- being the inconspicuous animal.

I just feel bad for any 2013 GS owner who tries to get "sporty" with an 07-11 GS450h, as they're only going to be disappointed when the older, less intimidating generation blows the thing away...

[The G Man]

But what i like most about the 07-11 GS is that it has a secret. It may look like a boring old Lexus, but it certainly doesn't act like it. When you get in the 07-11 GS450h and hit the pedal, WOAH. I've had the pleasure of driving the GS450h several times, and i have to say the thing is an absolute ROCKET, especially in terms of passing power. I thought the hybrid system in my Rx400h produced a lot of torque! The amount of torque created by the GS450h when you press that pedal is unreal. I would LOVE to drive around for a day, pulling up to BMW's and Audi's, who haven't the slightest clue how much i could embarrass them in terms of acceleration. The 07-11 GS450h is faster from 0-60 than ANYTHING else in its size and price range. Yet, it looks and "feels" like a Lexus. And did i mention it's a HYBRID?? It really is a true winner in this sense.

I also like the 1st and 2nd gen GS when I was young, that is one of the reason I bought the 08 GS350, I must say, my 08 GS was a big disappointment.

Before you blow anybody away with the GS450h, look at these stats, Both the GS450h and Audi A6 does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds according to Edmunds. The Audi A6 actually turn in a faster 1/4 miles by almost a half of a second. Torque numbers and combined gas mileage are about the same as well and Audi doing all of this without a Hybrid system.

http://www.edmunds.com/audi/a6/2012/road-test-specs.html

http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/gs-450h/2010/

All these acceleration numbers are nice to look at, but just straight line acceleration does not make a sport sedan. It has to handle well to be a complete sport sedan. That is one of the area that Lexus try to improve upon in this new GS. I think this new GS will sell better than the current gen, but then, that is not really saying much since the current gen sold so poorly.

[cduluk]

Believe me, i agree that the GS lacks major qualifications of a sports sedan- that's why i don't think the GS is one. It's a luxury car that just happens to go really, really fast.

And the Audi may meet the GS450h's acceleration, but it ain't no luxury car... The interiors of those are comparable to that of Saab, even worse than the 5-Series'. They are meant for performance, not luxury.

These are my points exactly. The older gen GS dominated its own niche, of being a luxury car with incredible power. Maybe that wasn't Lexus' intent, but it's the truth. It was the best (and pretty much alone) in its category. And that category isn't "sports sedan".

The reason the old gen GS's sold so poorly, is because there isn't much of a market for a car that "looks slow", that "goes fast". People who buy sports cars want them to not only perform well, but LOOK fast and wear a badge that says so. With the 2013's "BMW" appearance, it's clear Lexus is telling the world that they've done it; made a true sports sedan.

But bottom line, better handling or not, it's still slower and less "Lexus-like" than last year's gens. It may make the GS a better "sports sedan" in terms of how it handles, but with the loss of "creativity" and "uniqueness" that the previous gens possessed, they've lost my interest completely.

Anyone who wants a unique, subtle, luxurious car with tremendous speed is not going to be able to get it in the new GS. Not only will it ride like a stiff BMW, but it looks like one; practically identical. And i can't get over how ridiculous the front end of the new GS looks... Since when did copying Mitsubishi "redefine luxury"?

I know i'm probably alone on this, but i appreciated the previous generation GS's for their subtle appearance, luxurious feel, and tremendous power. It was a small niche, but a good one.

Still wondering where Lexus' "new image" is supposed to be going... I guess wherever the money does!

[The G Man]

cduluk,

I am afraid you are starting to lose me, how does the old GS rate better just because it looks boring and doesnt handle well? A sleeper car does not make a world class car. Also, I can tell you have not been inside an modern Audi for a while. The interior of the Audi have been praised by many reviews. It is right up there with Lexus if not better. The BMW 5 series' interior however have been called boring and cold by many auto magazines.

[TerrySmith]

Some comments:

1. I did not find this video review (or most other on-line reviews) very useful. It was all subjective or based on the impression of the driver. The BMW seemed to have better steering and the GS seemed to have a better suspension. Ok, what's better mean?

2. The numbers in your chart are more objective and useful but only relate to drag racing performance and fuel economy and not performance driving a road with lots of curves. So maybe if the 2013 handles a lot better than the older GS even though it's a bit slower off the line, it might still be a more fun car to drive.

3. If the 2013 falls somewhat short of the BMW on performance, but is close, and excels in luxury, reliability, and dealer experience and the cost is similar or less, why would it not be a good choice compared to the Audi or BMW?

4. The 4.6L V8 adds less than 40 HP over the 3.5L V6. The the 2013 GS should have an option for the 415 HP, 5L V8 that's in the IS F.

5. Personal preference: I like the exterior looks of the 2013 GS over any of the previous generations even though I think the front grill is a copy of the Audi look. I'm not sure if I like the dash look, but the analog clock is nice.

6. I test drove a 2011 GS450h yesterday with the thought of trading in my 2003 LS 430 for something newer and more fun but still able to carry passengers and be comfortable. I had a glass half-empty reaction: not as fast and does not handle like my IS F and not as quiet, luxurious, or roomy as my LS 430. Or the other way: faster and better handling than my LS and roomier and more comfortable than my IS F.

7. My dealer has several 2011 GS450hs in stock that seem to be about $10K off MSRP due to the pending 2013 GSs. I need to decide quickly (before the end of the year) if I want to buy or lease one and trade in my LS 430. ???

[LEX-SV]

I hope I'm not butting in, but in reading the postings a question came to mind and I wondered what your responses would be.

Assuming all things were equal between all three cars mentioned in the beginning; the same engine specs..horse power,cylinders, mpg, etc: the same curb weight, the same number of gears and ratios, the same 0-60 time, the same top end, the same fuel injection system, the same fuel type, the same color and type of paint with the same drag coefficient, you get the picture,

Of the three, again ALL exactly like the other, which one would you buy.....Lexus...Merceds.....BMW?

Thats an easy one, if all specs are the same, I would buy the Lexus of course. It is more relaible and has better dealership, but they are not all the same. Each excels at different areas, it all depends on the buyer's priority.

Agreed. Both new GS and new 5 are my preferences for mid size premium sedans.

[SW03ES]

Another interesting comparison on that chart is the weight difference between the older V8 GS and the new V6 GS. The 2013 GS350 is almost a 100 pounds heavier than the 91 GS400 and the 2001 GS430 V8.

Thats true of almost all cars though...

And look at the 2011 GS460! The performance is outstanding, with only a few mpg less than the 2013. This just proves they can make a V8 that yields outstanding performance with only little loss to mpg ratings. Why didn't they throw a 4.6L in the 2013? Why not at least make it an option?

Give them time.

If all three, the E-Class, 5-Series, and GS all looked identical, had the same specs, etc... without a doubt i would pick the BMW first, followed by the Mercedes, with the Lexus last. I only say this because BMW has the most "sports car" appeal. BMW doesn't advertise itself as being a leader in "luxury", but rather in "performance". Everyone who drives a BMW expects an outstanding performance, not a wood steering wheel and soft leather... So if i'm out to purchase a "sports car" sedan, i'd want the best of the best. And i'm sorry, but BMW has it all; from the actual performance, to the name.

I don't disagree.

The 2013 GS was created with the intent of competing against the BMW. Lexus wants people to consider the new GS to be a "sports sedan". The engineers copied the 5-Series' interior PERFECTLY, and they tried to make it "handle" like it too. Lexus ACTUALLY believes that the everyday egotistical "sports car" buyer is going to buy the GS over the already appointed king of the performance world, BMW. This might be true if the GS performed equal or BETTER than the BMW, but in reality it doesn't- it's actually worse.

It's like the argument between the Genesis and the LS. For years, the LS has been the leader in "luxury". Then all of a sudden, Hyundai, who came out of nowhere, decided that they'd try to compete with Lexus. Do you REALLY think the Genesis will ever win against Mercedes and Lexus? Maybe, if the interior quality and overall appeal of the Genesis becomes better than Lexus-but it's not, and probably won't. Lexus is the better choice if you want a luxury car.

What you're not taking into account is cost. The GS is considerably cheaper than the 5 series, so yeah...if the performance is similar...people will buy it instead. Same is true of the Genesis and Equus vs the LS (the Genesis is really nothing like the LS BTW, much sportier). They comparison doesnt really work though because you have the brand issue with Hyundai, less so with BMW vs Lexus.

What you fail to see is the 5 series is *really* expensive. You load a 535 up and it can get towards $70k...even just with options that are standard Lexus fare its $60k+, vs a GS350 that would be $50k. People buy the GS, you see them all over the place...same with the Infiniti M37, which I think is a very under appreciated car.

And the Audi may meet the GS450h's acceleration, but it ain't no luxury car... The interiors of those are comparable to that of Saab, even worse than the 5-Series'. They are meant for performance, not luxury.

You're totally out in left field on this one. New Audi interiors are BEAUTIFUL. Very luxurious with excellent materials. Have you ever seen an A8? Or the new A6? Even the previous A8 and A6...Beautiful cars.

[The G Man]

What you fail to see is the 5 series is *really* expensive. You load a 535 up and it can get towards $70k...even just with options that are standard Lexus fare its $60k+, vs a GS350 that would be $50k. People buy the GS, you see them all over the place...same with the Infiniti M37, which I think is a very under appreciated car.

I have a feeling the 2013 GS350 fully loaded will be a lot more than $50K. What car manufacturers like to do is keep the MSRP around the same and add more options to the car. My guess is that the New GS with the F-sport package and a few option borrow from the LS will be close to $60K. It is still $10K cheaper than the 535i though. The funny thing is that BMW actually lower their price on the new 5 series last year due to competition from the A6. I guess competition among car manufacturers is a good thing for us, the consumers.

[pj8708]

I wanted to ask who has driven the new GS350? It's not clear from the threads that have been posted so far.

[The G Man]

I wanted to ask who has driven the new GS350? It's not clear from the threads that have been posted so far.

The new GS will not be release until next month.

[LEX-SV]

I wanted to ask who has driven the new GS350? It's not clear from the threads that have been posted so far.

The new GS will not be release until next month.

That's what I was told when viewing the car at Pebble Beach last August.

[pj8708]

I wanted to ask who has driven the new GS350? It's not clear from the threads that have been posted so far.

n't

The new GS will not be release until next month.

My point exactly..

I've enjoyed following the discussion since December 9, when the topic began. But, as the discussion/mastications went on, everyone complained or praised the GS350 based on only the numbers published on a sheet of paper. Over a month of back and forth everyone has argued the merits of 0-60 time, curb weight, handling, etc. But no one has even driven a GS350. For total accuracy wouldn't it be more factual to compare the specs. to an actual test drive before you pronounce it D.O.A?

[SW03ES]

What you fail to see is the 5 series is *really* expensive. You load a 535 up and it can get towards $70k...even just with options that are standard Lexus fare its $60k+, vs a GS350 that would be $50k. People buy the GS, you see them all over the place...same with the Infiniti M37, which I think is a very under appreciated car.

I have a feeling the 2013 GS350 fully loaded will be a lot more than $50K. What car manufacturers like to do is keep the MSRP around the same and add more options to the car. My guess is that the New GS with the F-sport package and a few option borrow from the LS will be close to $60K. It is still $10K cheaper than the 535i though. The funny thing is that BMW actually lower their price on the new 5 series last year due to competition from the A6. I guess competition among car manufacturers is a good thing for us, the consumers.

Sure fully loaded, but you'll be able to get a well equipped GS350 for $50k. Base is $46k, add a $4k-$5k nav package and that will be the "typical" GS350. You'll be able to get it higher with the F Sport package, packages with adaptive seats and such, but the 5 is always going to be $10k-$15k more when similarly equipped is my point.