SW03ES Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Your frame of mind would be quite different if one of your family members had been among those killed in the crashes caused by the multiple defects in these various Toyota vehicles.... I'm sure it would be, and I'm not saying that there isn't an issue here...what I'm wondering is what is truly the extent of the issue. I know that all car companies operate like this to a certain degree, but they don’t boost about reliability, quality and safety and then get caught with memos stating the contrary. Nobody has ever looked at anybody else's memos. Cars are not perfect, but when I step on the brakes, I expect it to stop and when I let go of the gas, I expect it to slow down. I don’t think that’s asking for perfection. Again though...you are escalating the issue. People on the Prius chat forums have gone as far as using accelerometers to mesure the "braking effect" (they're a "special" bunch over there), its a feel issue not an interruption in actual braking. That feel issue is a product of the electronig braking system found in their hybrid vehicles...and has been addressed with no loss of life. As for letting up on the gas...again I'm not saying there isn't an issue...but were talking about a very rare set of circumstances and a very small percentage of cars that have displayed this issue. They've got a brake override retrofit on the ground...gas pedals and floormats have been recalled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX in NC Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 At this point no one can say what the extent of the issue is. Like many other folks, I've said all along that I think it goes all the way to the firmware/software in the ECUs and perhaps even to the design and/or materials of the ECU itself. I believe that Toyota has used floor mats and brake pedal retrofits as an all-out last-ditch smokescreen to the real issues because they know it will cost billions to find, fix, and implement such a massive restoration effort across millions of vehicles already out there. But by choosing the strategy they did (essentially deceit and cover-up), they have compounded their problems exponentially and must now face monumental legal scrutiny which will lead to hundreds of millions of dollars in fines and sanctions over time. In essence, Toyota tried to put out a smoldering ember with gasoline. It took years, but the situation finally exploded in their face and dealing with the consequences will be embarrassing, treacherous, and horrendously expensive.... It will take a couple of years for the complete saga to unfold. The only thing certain right now is that Toyota's reputation is in tatters and the level of trust that the American consumer places in Toyota has fallen off a cliff. Anyone owning a Toyota product has been affected - just look at what is happening to resale values across the complete line.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 When there are safety issues concerning a motor vehicle and death is involved, it is more important to take it seriously instead of trying to down play it like what Toyota was doing prior to now. Since 2007, Toyota have tried to down play the sudden accelaration problem, issuing recalls that they know will not fix all the sudden accelaration. Intead of actual trying to fix a fix for the problem, they choose to fix the problem thru their lawyers and lobbyist. Now they get caught red handed with the memos and now they will be forced to do the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake918 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 No, not "out of control" but it is definately a higher rate of acceleration than I am comfortable letting the car do on its own. Steady all the way up to the set speed then it lets off. If someone was unfamiliar to the car I could see them overreacting and hitting the brake to bring the car back "under control". For instance if you're set at 65 and slow down to 50 and hit resume, it will downshift and take off like a rocket. I simply accelerate myself slowly and then hit resume.I never brought it to the attention of the dealer because every Toyota I have owned is/was that way. I simply choose to not use the resume function unless I'm already around the set speed or within 5MPH or so. I just look at it as a characteristic of their system. I've noticed this too. The Lexus cars I've had accelerate pretty hard when I hit resume. It's pretty obvious when I compared it to my dad's GM truck--which resumes very gently. I'm used to it, and it doesn't bother me since I know I can stop the car if I need to. What really bugs me is the cruise light. I wish it was like most cars where the cruise light turns on only when it's set, and not just when the system is powered up. Maybe the new ones are different.Again though...you are escalating the issue. People on the Prius chat forums have gone as far as using accelerometers to mesure the "braking effect" (they're a "special" bunch over there)Special? That's a very nice way to characterize them. I lurk there since I'm interested in my next car having 40+ mpg, but only in small sessions since many of those kool-aid drinkers are insufferable. I just can't imagine being that obsessed with one car. I need to find a Civic Hybrid forum to see if the same type of nuts frequent those boards as well. haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 Special? That's a very nice way to characterize them. I lurk there since I'm interested in my next car having 40+ mpg, but only in small sessions since many of those kool-aid drinkers are insufferable. I just can't imagine being that obsessed with one car. I need to find a Civic Hybrid forum to see if the same type of nuts frequent those boards as well. haha Those Prius owners are a special kind of nuts :) Who else would pay $30000 for a compact car :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Those Prius owners are a special kind of nuts :) Who else would pay $30000 for a compact car :) Actually it isn't a compact car, its a midsized car with interior volume that is pretty close to that of a Camry. Its a pretty versitile vehicle with the hatch and the fold down seats, and the 2010 model is a lot more comfortable and fun to drive than our 04 (which I personally don't care for) People spend more than $30k on compact cars all the time...the BMW3...the Cadillac CTS....the Audi A4...the Lexus IS...all much smaller inside than the Prius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake918 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Those Prius owners are a special kind of nuts :) Who else would pay $30000 for a compact car :)LOL It's pretty impressive what people are able to fit in to the Prius, even though they are a bit small compared to what I'm used to. http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/worktruck/My main issue with them is the interior quality; it's fairly well known that the 2004-2010 models rattle pretty badly, and that's something I'd have a hard time dealing with, especially since my 11 year old LS with more than 200k miles still doesn't rattle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 Those Prius owners are a special kind of nuts :) Who else would pay $30000 for a compact car :) Actually it isn't a compact car, its a midsized car with interior volume that is pretty close to that of a Camry. Its a pretty versitile vehicle with the hatch and the fold down seats, and the 2010 model is a lot more comfortable and fun to drive than our 04 (which I personally don't care for) People spend more than $30k on compact cars all the time...the BMW3...the Cadillac CTS....the Audi A4...the Lexus IS...all much smaller inside than the Prius. We have two last gen Prius and current gen Prius where I work. The interior space is not quite a big as the Camry. Front leg room wise, its close to Camry, but rear leg room wise and front shoulder room wise, its cloaser to a Corolla's size. The 2010 has more comfortable seats, but the interior material is a step down from the last gen. Your list of $30K compact cars are sport luxury sedans, the Prius is not sport or luxury. Blake, most of the Prius do rattle a lot, so do the Camry Hybrid. Toyota say its due to the low noise level, I am not sure if I buy that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Your list of $30K compact cars are sport luxury sedans, the Prius is not sport or luxury. So because something wears a luxury nameplate its okay to spend $30,000 on a compact car? And what makes the Lexus IS luxurious when a fully loaded Prius V with ATP is not? Lot of features...I'd consider it pretty luxurious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 And what makes the Lexus IS luxurious when a fully loaded Prius V with ATP is not? Lot of features...I'd consider it pretty luxurious. Lexus is the luxury division of Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Thank you for clearing that up... So the IS is luxurious simply because it carries a luxury nameplate and the Prius is not because its a Toyota? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Thank you for clearing that up...So the IS is luxurious simply because it carries a luxury nameplate and the Prius is not because its a Toyota? I hate to say it, but that usually how it works, brand perception is big money in the US. Why do you think your ES cost $15000 more than the Camry and its almost the same car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Actually my ES didn't cost $15,000 more than a top of the like Camry, it is more like $5,000. So in your opinion spending $30,000 on a compact car is okay as long as it has a luxury nameplate? Plenty of cars are more than $30,000 and don't have luxury nameplates that sell VERY well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Actually my ES didn't cost $15,000 more than a top of the like Camry, it is more like $5,000.So in your opinion spending $30,000 on a compact car is okay as long as it has a luxury nameplate? Plenty of cars are more than $30,000 and don't have luxury nameplates that sell VERY well. Please name one compact car that sells well and doesnt have a luxury nameplate or is a sports car like the IS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc211 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Mazda 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Mazda 3 A loaded Mazda 3 is about $27000 MSRP and the Mazda 3 Sport does 0-60 in 6 seconds, I would call that a sports car. Its a great handling car as well, it a lot of car for the price, too bad the smiley face grille is so funny looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Please name one compact car that sells well and doesnt have a luxury nameplate or is a sports car like the IS. Um...the Toyota Corolla...the best selling car in the country? The Mazda 3...the Honda Civic...compact cars sell really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Please name one compact car that sells well and doesnt have a luxury nameplate or is a sports car like the IS. Um...the Toyota Corolla...the best selling car in the country? The Mazda 3...the Honda Civic...compact cars sell really well. I am sorry, I forgot to write a compact car that cost $30000 and sells well and doesnt have a luxury nameplate or is a sports car like the IS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I don't really understand your question or the point of what you are getting at? You said that people are silly to spend $30,000 on a compact car. I told you that the Prius is not a compact car, and even so people spend WAY more than $30,000 on other compact cars like the BMW 3 and 1, the Mini Cooper, Lexus IS...you name them. You seem to think thats okay as long as it has a luxury badge on the hood...but somehow its silly to spend $30,000 on a Prius because it doesn't have a luxury nameplate when many many other car models cost $30,000 without a luxury nameplate. I don't understand your point? As for naming compact cars that cost $30,000 and sell well without a luxury nameplate...Honda Civics can cost close to $30k...the Mazda 3 (which is not a sports car...its sporty but a car that competes with the Corolla and Civic)...any manner of Volkswagens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 I don't really understand your question or the point of what you are getting at?You said that people are silly to spend $30,000 on a compact car. I told you that the Prius is not a compact car, and even so people spend WAY more than $30,000 on other compact cars like the BMW 3 and 1, the Mini Cooper, Lexus IS...you name them. You seem to think thats okay as long as it has a luxury badge on the hood...but somehow its silly to spend $30,000 on a Prius because it doesn't have a luxury nameplate when many many other car models cost $30,000 without a luxury nameplate. I don't understand your point? As for naming compact cars that cost $30,000 and sell well without a luxury nameplate...Honda Civics can cost close to $30k...the Mazda 3 (which is not a sports car...its sporty but a car that competes with the Corolla and Civic)...any manner of Volkswagens... If you will bear with me, lets recap all the previous posts. I said that the Prius owners are special kind of nut for paying $30K for a compact car. You replay by saying the Prius is the size of a Camry and I reply saying the interior dimensions are closer to the Corolla than the bigger Camry. Then you said that a lot of compact cars cost $30000 and you name the Lexus IS. I replay by saying that the IS is a luxury sports car and ask you to name another car that cost $30000 that is neither a luxury car nor a sports car. The top of the line Civic cost $24000 and rather if you consider the Mazda 3 sport a sports car or not, it only cost $27000 max out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I still don't understand your point. I said lots of people pay $30,000 for compact cars. The fact that a Lexus IS or a BMW 1 or 3 series is a luxury branded vehicle doesn't change the fact that its a...compact car. People buy luxury cars because they deliver a certain level of performance and driving enjoyment and they project a certain image. People buy the Prius for the same reasons, the type of performance and driving enjoyment and image are different...but the rationale is the same. I would never want a BMW 3 series or a Lexus IS...but that doesn't make people who have different priorities than me stupid for wanting one. $27,000 vs $30,000 is semantics. All Prius' don't cost $30,000...only the fully loaded IV with roof and V packages...most Prius' on the road are like $25,000. Oh and by the way, I just priced out a fully loaded Civic Hybrid...$30,080 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc211 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 ...don't forget tax, tag, title, tuition deposit for saleman's kids, braces, and hair plugs. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 I still don't understand your point. I said lots of people pay $30,000 for compact cars. The fact that a Lexus IS or a BMW 1 or 3 series is a luxury branded vehicle doesn't change the fact that its a...compact car. People buy luxury cars because they deliver a certain level of performance and driving enjoyment and they project a certain image. People buy the Prius for the same reasons, the type of performance and driving enjoyment and image are different...but the rationale is the same. I would never want a BMW 3 series or a Lexus IS...but that doesn't make people who have different priorities than me stupid for wanting one. $27,000 vs $30,000 is semantics. All Prius' don't cost $30,000...only the fully loaded IV with roof and V packages...most Prius' on the road are like $25,000. Oh and by the way, I just priced out a fully loaded Civic Hybrid...$30,080 My point is that people pay $30000 for a IS and a BMW because theya re paying for sport performance and luxury and the Prius doesnt offer either. By the way, I am not sure which site you were looking at, but the Civic hybrid has no options and the MSRP is $27000 and the Civics is more fun to drive as well. For future reference, I am only comparing prices with the car max out with options, so we can compare apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Go to honda.com and click on build your Honda. Hondas absolutely do have options, they are just dealer installed options...they have upgrade stereos & CD changers, etc. $30,080. The car starts at $27,710. For example Fun to drive is a relative thing. People who like the Prius LOVE the Prius and they love driving them. They dislike the Civic because its too ordinary. To them the performance it delivers is great fuel economy in a fun to drive and versitile package. Many of them don't want a stuffy luxury car image...they want the image of someone who is tech savy and cares about the environment. And the Prius may not offer YOUR definition of performance and luxury, but it has leather heated seats, navigation, keyless entry and start, laser guided cruise control, lane keep assist, LED headlights, a solar panoramic sunroof...pretty luxurious. What does a BMW 3 series have that is more luxurious...aside from the BMW emblem on the hood? Sport and luxury is important TO YOU. Thats what I want to hear you understand. Just because it doesn't appeal TO YOU doesn't make it stupid. Obviously the Prius appeals to a lot of people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Go to honda.com and click on build your Honda. Hondas absolutely do have options, they are just dealer installed options...they have upgrade stereos & CD changers, etc. $30,080. The car starts at $27,710. For exampleFun to drive is a relative thing. People who like the Prius LOVE the Prius and they love driving them. They dislike the Civic because its too ordinary. To them the performance it delivers is great fuel economy in a fun to drive and versitile package. Many of them don't want a stuffy luxury car image...they want the image of someone who is tech savy and cares about the environment. And the Prius may not offer YOUR definition of performance and luxury, but it has leather heated seats, navigation, keyless entry and start, laser guided cruise control, lane keep assist, LED headlights, a solar panoramic sunroof...pretty luxurious. What does a BMW 3 series have that is more luxurious...aside from the BMW emblem on the hood? Sport and luxury is important TO YOU. Thats what I want to hear you understand. Just because it doesn't appeal TO YOU doesn't make it stupid. Obviously the Prius appeals to a lot of people... Come on, now we are going to start counting dealer install options? :) Fun to drive is a relative thing, but no matter how you put it, the Prius is not a fun car to drive unless you like watching the MPG meter all the time. I agree the Prius has a lot of high tech equipment, but high tech equipemnts doesnt doesnt make for a luxury car. As far as what makes a BMW a sport luxury car, it seems like you did not like my definition of what a luxury car should be, maybe you should ask the automotive websites why they classify the BMW as a sport luxury car and not the Prius. Of course the Prius appeal to a lot of people, but those owners are a special bunch, thats all I was saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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