Is250 Power Curves? (hp & Torque)

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[bartkat]

I prefer the non-competitive races myself. :D

[smooth1]

I keep rereading your posts. You say you were misled? What into buying a 250 instead of a 350? I don't know what you thought 204 peak hp is supposed to feel like, ( that would be crank hp, not rear wheel.) The IS 250 I allways thought was the "gas miser" version and the 350 was the "sport" version. Where you just confused?

It suffices to say this is not the "Pursuit of Perfection" as it was claimed.

204 hp is a lot if a car is really equpped with a 204 hp you'd feel it. Peak? You would not get 204 even if you rev the engine up to 7k rpm. I may sound odd to you but still entitled to say my opinion and I am always against fraud.

As long as you understand your opinion is wrong.

The car has 204 crank hp.

If it didn't, there'd have been lawsuits.

See also when Mazda had to buy back peoples RX-8s because they lied about horsepower, other companies have been through the same.

The butt dyno is a reliably horrible way to know the actual power of a car. An -actual- dyno tends to work better.

Wow... I hesitate to spend much time here getting into the details of these comments because we all have our opinions and some have lots of very good information to share.

First, a "butt dyno" can be as reliable as any SuperFlow SF-902. If you have competitvely raced, you would most likely know this. An good engine dyno and a good dyno tech can produce really neat torque data over RPM ranges with specific software algorithms that make some assumptions, but on a race track the driver can tell you things about "actual power" that a $100K dyno cannot!

Randy

????? Can you share some of that stuff your smokin?

[Gaugster]

Well,

Today I ran the quarter mile in 16.027 sec @ 86mph. The condition were just okay as there was a headwind from 8 - 13mph. That might explain why the mph is a little on the low side. Two other runs were both @ 16.047 sec.

I'm happy.

[bartkat]

I keep rereading your posts. You say you were misled? What into buying a 250 instead of a 350? I don't know what you thought 204 peak hp is supposed to feel like, ( that would be crank hp, not rear wheel.) The IS 250 I allways thought was the "gas miser" version and the 350 was the "sport" version. Where you just confused?

It suffices to say this is not the "Pursuit of Perfection" as it was claimed.

204 hp is a lot if a car is really equpped with a 204 hp you'd feel it. Peak? You would not get 204 even if you rev the engine up to 7k rpm. I may sound odd to you but still entitled to say my opinion and I am always against fraud.

As long as you understand your opinion is wrong.

The car has 204 crank hp.

If it didn't, there'd have been lawsuits.

See also when Mazda had to buy back peoples RX-8s because they lied about horsepower, other companies have been through the same.

The butt dyno is a reliably horrible way to know the actual power of a car. An -actual- dyno tends to work better.

Wow... I hesitate to spend much time here getting into the details of these comments because we all have our opinions and some have lots of very good information to share.

First, a "butt dyno" can be as reliable as any SuperFlow SF-902. If you have competitvely raced, you would most likely know this. An good engine dyno and a good dyno tech can produce really neat torque data over RPM ranges with specific software algorithms that make some assumptions, but on a race track the driver can tell you things about "actual power" that a $100K dyno cannot!

Randy

????? Can you share some of that stuff your smokin?

Something's not quite right here. I'm calling tomorrow for an appointment to get my butt dyno recalibrated.

[smooth1]

Hahaha, The New " SuperFlow ButtDyno 2000" !!! That 's right, you'll never need EX LAX again. Feel the torque and !Removed! in tune.

Hahahahahaha!!!!

[EnginePassion]

I keep rereading your posts. You say you were misled? What into buying a 250 instead of a 350? I don't know what you thought 204 peak hp is supposed to feel like, ( that would be crank hp, not rear wheel.) The IS 250 I allways thought was the "gas miser" version and the 350 was the "sport" version. Where you just confused?

It suffices to say this is not the "Pursuit of Perfection" as it was claimed.

204 hp is a lot if a car is really equpped with a 204 hp you'd feel it. Peak? You would not get 204 even if you rev the engine up to 7k rpm. I may sound odd to you but still entitled to say my opinion and I am always against fraud.

Well, I don't think it's Lexus' fault that you don't understand the mechanical application of hp and torque. All manufacturers state horsepower created at the flywheel, or crank horsepower as it's called in the garage. As the motor produces hp, and sends it thru the torque converter, then thru the transmission, then down the drive shaft, thru the differential, and to the rear axles, the most usable horsepower and torque numbers are produced there. But typically you see a 15-20 % loss of hp from the crank to the rear wheels. Every dyno run and sheet I have seen on the IS 250 falls right into that. I think your expectations of a 2.5 liter is just not founded by any facts. The IS250 was marketed to look good, and get better gas mileage. The IS 250 does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, which by the way is .2 seconds faster than the Audi A4 Turbo!, and does the 1/4 mile in 15.8 seconds, which is tied with the A4 Turbo. While the A4 has a nice mid RPM pull once the turbo spools up, the IS 250 does have a very wide torque curve. Also, Never be overly concerned with the peak hp number. That number is only produced for about a second or 2 before you shift to the next gear, The bigger, more important number is the average hp number. And the weight of the car. Those are the better numbers to go by. And once you see that the IS 250 produces a 130 average hp ( which is the real everyday driving number, then you would have gotten a much better scale for the butt dyno to judge to). Let me break this down further. A 2 liter 4 cylinder engine, that produces 250 hp, a 3 liter V6 that produces 250 hp, and a 4 liter V8 that produces 250 hp. If they were all put in equal weighted vehicles, do you think they all would be equally fast? I'll give you the 2 liter, and I'll take the 4 liter, and we can go and race.

Edit*- I just found this: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...28/pageNumber=2

Are you not getting these performance numbers?

Well, I don't think I need to do Dyno or any other theoretical tests; did you examine the tests conditions? Where in the world would you find these conditions? Why won't these guys think of reality rather than cosmetics and falsification of reality? You are happy with 64% efficiency (130hp/204hp). I drove other vehicles which their nominal output hp is less than what Lexus claim the IS250 has and they are more powerful and faster than the IS; I guess these car manufacturers are naive, they should prorate their hp by a 100/64 factor.

Speaking about the link you provided, here what they wrote at the end:

Squeaks & Rattles

Other than the whining-gear sounds emanating from our car's manual transmission, this IS 250 was squeak and rattle free. They rated it 8/10. Is this right?

When these bogus things are to stop and we get real trustworthy assessments?

As I pointed out before, we're going down as far as quality concerned; not only in auto industry but in other industries, I gave an example from the software, where MS is going down year after year. There are some exceptions though.

Good luck and do not take it personal

[Gaugster]

Never have the words of others been so misunderstood, twisted and abused.

You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.

[bartkat]

A guy took his IS250 to the track and turned right at 16 seconds. My only question would be, "why take an IS250 to the track"? By the same token, why argue about the HP and torque of a IS250?

[Gaugster]

A guy took his IS250 to the track and turned right at 16 seconds. My only question would be, "why take an IS250 to the track"? By the same token, why argue about the HP and torque of a IS250?

It's simple really. Every vehicle I own goes to the drag strip - it's just my rule. Plus, the car is stock now but I will be bolting on an intake and headers (if you have to ask why then you will never know) and would like to see the before and after times in addition to the dyno charts.

I like charts and graphs but a Sunday afternoon at the track with a few time slips is way more fun.

[bartkat]

A guy took his IS250 to the track and turned right at 16 seconds. My only question would be, "why take an IS250 to the track"? By the same token, why argue about the HP and torque of a IS250?

It's simple really. Every vehicle I own goes to the drag strip - it's just my rule. Plus, the car is stock now but I will be bolting on an intake and headers (if you have to ask why then you will never know) and would like to see the before and after times in addition to the dyno charts.

I like charts and graphs but a Sunday afternoon at the track with a few time slips is way more fun.

I guess I'll never know then.

[smooth1]

Gaugster, I would really like to see your "after" timeslips if you get a chance. And what intake, headers and exhaust combination you decide to go with. I have seen alot of people get,,,,"more hp" and end up actually being slower on the strip. I'm not saying or implying in the least that is the case here. In fact, after reading and seeing some of the results that Mazzuri is getting, I'm sure there is alot of hp to be had there. And you would definately see it on the strip. I think they got about 15-18 hp just with replacing the headers! And he claims about 25-30 hp on the IS 350! So I'm curious what everyone is getting even if they don't use the MAzzuri headers or what not to see if those gains are because of the Mazzuri header system, or if it's really just hp laying out there for most systems to have.

[Gaugster]

smooth1, no problem. I will share my results once I have them. I am planning to add the JoeZ intake (stock filter) and the Mazzuri headers. The remainder of the exhaust will be stock as I like it to be quite.

I have the intake pipe at home and should receive the headers this week unless there delayed. Still need to get some baseline dyno numbers to go along with the time slips. I am very curious to see what happens too. Honestly, it will be a couple of months until I have before and after data.

[smooth1]

I keep rereading your posts. You say you were misled? What into buying a 250 instead of a 350? I don't know what you thought 204 peak hp is supposed to feel like, ( that would be crank hp, not rear wheel.) The IS 250 I allways thought was the "gas miser" version and the 350 was the "sport" version. Where you just confused?

It suffices to say this is not the "Pursuit of Perfection" as it was claimed.

204 hp is a lot if a car is really equpped with a 204 hp you'd feel it. Peak? You would not get 204 even if you rev the engine up to 7k rpm. I may sound odd to you but still entitled to say my opinion and I am always against fraud.

Well, I don't think it's Lexus' fault that you don't understand the mechanical application of hp and torque. All manufacturers state horsepower created at the flywheel, or crank horsepower as it's called in the garage. As the motor produces hp, and sends it thru the torque converter, then thru the transmission, then down the drive shaft, thru the differential, and to the rear axles, the most usable horsepower and torque numbers are produced there. But typically you see a 15-20 % loss of hp from the crank to the rear wheels. Every dyno run and sheet I have seen on the IS 250 falls right into that. I think your expectations of a 2.5 liter is just not founded by any facts. The IS250 was marketed to look good, and get better gas mileage. The IS 250 does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, which by the way is .2 seconds faster than the Audi A4 Turbo!, and does the 1/4 mile in 15.8 seconds, which is tied with the A4 Turbo. While the A4 has a nice mid RPM pull once the turbo spools up, the IS 250 does have a very wide torque curve. Also, Never be overly concerned with the peak hp number. That number is only produced for about a second or 2 before you shift to the next gear, The bigger, more important number is the average hp number. And the weight of the car. Those are the better numbers to go by. And once you see that the IS 250 produces a 130 average hp ( which is the real everyday driving number, then you would have gotten a much better scale for the butt dyno to judge to). Let me break this down further. A 2 liter 4 cylinder engine, that produces 250 hp, a 3 liter V6 that produces 250 hp, and a 4 liter V8 that produces 250 hp. If they were all put in equal weighted vehicles, do you think they all would be equally fast? I'll give you the 2 liter, and I'll take the 4 liter, and we can go and race.

Edit*- I just found this: http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...28/pageNumber=2

Are you not getting these performance numbers?

Well, I don't think I need to do Dyno or any other theoretical tests; did you examine the tests conditions? Where in the world would you find these conditions? Why won't these guys think of reality rather than cosmetics and falsification of reality? You are happy with 64% efficiency (130hp/204hp). I drove other vehicles which their nominal output hp is less than what Lexus claim the IS250 has and they are more powerful and faster than the IS; I guess these car manufacturers are naive, they should prorate their hp by a 100/64 factor.

Speaking about the link you provided, here what they wrote at the end:

Squeaks & Rattles

Other than the whining-gear sounds emanating from our car's manual transmission, this IS 250 was squeak and rattle free. They rated it 8/10. Is this right?

When these bogus things are to stop and we get real trustworthy assessments?

As I pointed out before, we're going down as far as quality concerned; not only in auto industry but in other industries, I gave an example from the software, where MS is going down year after year. There are some exceptions though.

Good luck and do not take it personal

Well, I don't think I need to do Dyno or any other theoretical tests; did you examine the tests conditions? Where in the world would you find these conditions? Why won't these guys think of reality rather than cosmetics and falsification of reality?

What are you talking about? Test conditions? 64 degrees and 57% humidity at 1100 feet above sea level is some secret formula for showing bigger numbers? I live in Florida. We have many a Saturday night Test and tune runs at the Orlando Speedway. From December to May, there are many nights with even better conditions, and we are under 500 feet to sea level. ( The lower you are to sea level, the more oxygen or concentrated the oxygen levels are, which help produce more hp. Also colder air contains more oxygen. So, at 55 degrees, with 30% humidity, at or just above sea level would produce more hp, and an even better time, let's say a 15.5, and someone in the mountians of Colorado posted a 17.2 1/4 mile, you can use that same formula that shows the corrected time which accounts for the elevation and temp. So you can compare the numbers. Gaugster's time is right in the ball park to prove that the time and numbers they show are very close. What's your problem?

You are happy with 64% efficiency (130hp/204hp).

No, that's why I bought an IS 350. With 270 rear wheel hp, to your 160 ish rear wheel hp, I get to look back at you and wave bye-bye as I run 0-60 in just under 5 seconds to your 7.5 and drop 1/4 mile times in about 13 seconds which is about a full 3 seconds faster.( I'm grinning while I type this by the way.)

I drove other vehicles which their nominal output hp is less than what Lexus claim the IS250 has and they are more powerful and faster than the IS; I guess these car manufacturers are naive, they should prorate their hp by a 100/64 factor.

Really? what cars are you talking about specifically? Let's not forget that gearing does play a role here as well, but even in that case, lower gearing will feel like a stronger take off, but lose their breath quickly, and hence in the quarter mile they can actually be slower. So what cars are you doing this comparison too?

As for the rest of what you wrote, I think you have to remember that most all magazines, test panels and review systems are a conjunction, and a collective of opinions. You don't have to agree with them. You can have your own opinion. I very often disagree with test panels and reviews of cars. That's why I don't buy them. Which is why I'm wondering how and why you bought an IS250?

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[smooth1]

I can see there's some real !Removed! smuckers here,

LOL! Do I qualify?

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[smooth1]

LOL!!! I like smoothies. :) we have Planet Smoothies nearby, and I usually get a Vinnie Del Rocco or a Shag a Delic. Yummy!! I don't understand thier sizes though. A small is enouph to make a meal, and a large smoothie would put a strain on the US gross national product import tables!!! Who can drink that much fruit? Anyway,,,

I'm probably more of a Coconut.

I like to hear peoples opinions and subject them to my own, debate subjective ideas, and even create new ones. But here on the forum one of the "rules" I like, is that they all have to be based on facts and correct information. Otherwise we all just end up posting a bunch of BS and there is no integrity.

For example, if you or someone here had posted " The Lexus IS 250 produces 204 hp and according to the torque curve, 90% is available at around 2k rpm to redline, but even with those numbers, I am not happy with the amount of pull I feel in the car, and wish there was more there."

I could understand that and respect that. But to simply state that the facts of the data are just a bunch of lies and your "butt dyno" is more accurate and knows that there is no way that the IS 250 is producing the numbers that Lexus states is somewhat ridiculous.

Even your example of a good race car driver and a tuner that can detect changes. very correct. But in a very controlled and specific enviornment. Your talking about a three man person. The mechanic, the tuner and the driver. They have to work as one to be able to produce the right combination of torque, horsepower, grip, suspension settings, gearing, and confidence for the current track conditions. Your reference about the driver telling the crew about how the car responds to input and adjustments they have made, and his or her's ability to detect minor adjustments. Imagine if they had to set up that 1 car for 10 drivers. You think all 10 drivers, even being professionals would all come to the same conclusions? Someone would walk away all upset about how the car enters a corner to sloppy, and another would not be happy that the suspension is too stiff. And yet another would like the power to come on earlier in the rpm band while another would argue that it makes the car to jumpy. They would all have to make some sacrifices in thier own prefrences. Well, when it came to the IS, someone was afraid of too much acceleration, and wanted to be able to apply the gas without having thier head being jerked back everytime, and others wanted more acceleration and loved the speed. Someone else wanted good gas mileage and thought a smaller engine would be good, while someone else said forget mileage, I want power, and hence came the ISF! Thankfully Lexus saw that they couldn't fill all the varying expectations so made 3 IS versions. I actually applaud Lexus for their attempts and hope they continue. Until 1989, the European car companies have had a lock on the Luxury car market, and now, they are getting a test on the luxury performance vehicles as well. Nissan just came out with the GTR rocket!!!, Lexus has the ISF, and is rumored to be working on the GSF. The LFA should be coming soon, a V10 Lexus super car!!, Acura is redesigning the NSX, and Cadillac just spanked the BMW class M5 with the new CTS! ( we'll see about that though, I'm kinda skeptical, but I am open to the idea of an american car whoopin a BMW.)

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[smooth1]

Well, Smoothie, I can't really disagree with anything you said there. I do think that Lexus could have done a tad better with the IS. Just the brief time I've read some of these posts, it appears I'm not the only one who feels this way. The 250 is a nice car and it has lots of goodies for the money. But, there apears to be a few "quality" issues that seem unsual for Lexus in it's brief history. It's certainly one of the most eye-catching 4-door sporty cars on the market.

Randy

Agreed. But I haven't seen a single car in the history of car making that was purchased by several thousand people, and not one of them had a complaint of some sort about the car. Heck, I know the owner of a Bugatti Veyron, ($ 1.4 million car!), and even he does some snivelling about the car!

One day I imagine we will be able to go into some computer program and design and create our very own personal transporter via some yet undiscovered Nano technology. But until then, under 40K, when I view the available selections that represent my requirements, ( 4 doors, look great, descent gas mileage yet fast enough not to be pushed around, toys and luxury stuff, and not to mention going to the Lexus service dept. is way nicer than the Ford, or Chevy places, and most other for that matter,) , the Lexus IS 350 fit the bill pretty nicely. We allways want more power. We allways want better gas mileage, we allways want more. I have an IS 300 that came stock with 200 hp. that wasn't enough...so I installed a turbo and went to 450 hp. that was great!, but after awhile, I wanted faster than that!, So I got a bigger turbo, and a stronger motor, and now we are looking at going to 1000 hp! Should be pretty fast. We'll see. ;)

[Randy&Bonnie]

..

[bartkat]

My IS350 has never had a single problem and I've never spent more than $29 for an oil change. Of course I supply the filter which costs a whopping $4.50 from Irontoad.

[Gaugster]

smooth1, no problem. I will share my results once I have them. I am planning to add the JoeZ intake (stock filter) and the Mazzuri headers. The remainder of the exhaust will be stock as I like it to be quite.

I have the intake pipe at home and should receive the headers this week unless there delayed. Still need to get some baseline dyno numbers to go along with the time slips. I am very curious to see what happens too. Honestly, it will be a couple of months until I have before and after data.

Hey all, just had some baseline dyno pulls done. HP=157.5 hp, TQ=159.6 lbft. I have not decided if I am happy with the way the numbers look but it is the baseline nevertheless. I have some other data to review as well. JoeZ intake and Mazzuri 'shorty' headers are next.

[smooth1]

Are you running an automatic? Looks like it from the dyno. They never hit wot until around 4000 rpm, so anything under that is useless info. But I can't beleive how lean your afr's are!! Looks like the most hp is made around 13-13.5. That might be why your not making quite as much hp as you should be. Your on a Dynopack which usually reads a little lower anyway, but still, I think I have seen some dynopack sheets on the 250 show closer to 165-170 whp. Your torque numbers are not that far off though.