To Chamois Or Not... + Other Questions.

[Lazar1389]

Anyone using the Zaino line of products knows that Sal Zaino is not a fan of the Chamois, preferring to go with a high quality 100% cotton towel purchased from a Bed Bath store (not Walmart or Kmart).

Although I'm not a Zaino user (I have tried it, but prefer most Meguiars products), Meguiars pushes synthetic drying towels (although they sell natural chamois'). What's the beef with the natural stuff?

Sal Zaino claims that little dirt particles can get caught up in a Chamois and scratch paint, whereas with a high quality cotton towel, it is less likely to occur.

Other than this claim (which I think is overstated), what's wrong with a natural Chamois? I think they are unparalleled at absorbing water, which makes life easy.

My second question has to do with the rims on my '08, IS350. They have a different finish than that of my '07. Does anyone know the difference? Is it paint, is it material is it just how they are finished? Also, for '08 owners... what are you using to clean your factory rims and how are the results?

[smooth1]

I have an Obsidean Black 2008 IS 350 and I am using Zaino products.

I guess it just made sense to me that the more you wipe your car down the more of a chance you have to scratch it. Wether it be from cheap towels or trapped dirt and sand. I took his advice and I purchased some 100 % cotton towels. (16 bucks for a 24x16!!) and I got 3 of them. I have to say I was surprised at the results of using those towels. You really can feel the difference on the paint with the towels in your hand. I actually do use a 235 mph leaf blower to dry the car off with. I still wipe it down with a towel afterwards, but with most of the water gone it does make everything easier and faster.

I have been using Zaino polish with the excelerator, then Z6 or Z8 and the new ZCS with a last Z8 and the paint feels like butter and the shine is amazing. And with how easy it is to apply, I think I have found a system that I can keep up with regularly. Especially on a black car.

As for the rims they are painted. Einki uses the same process to achieve the finish they label Hyper black, which looks just like the finish on the 2008 IS rims now. I use the same Zaino products on them as well. When I hit the rims with the hose the brake dust pretty much just falls off. I wash the car with the same Zaino auto shampoo. Then just Z6 or Z8 it with a cotton towel.

And as to your preference for Maquires, check this test out. It was done by a real person and not influenced by advertisement dollars. the test was actually between Zymol and Zaino, and the person doing the test was a Zymol user.

http://www.ffcobra.com/magazine/waxtest.html

[Lazar1389]

I guess it just made sense to me that the more you wipe your car down the more of a chance you have to scratch it. Wether it be from cheap towels or trapped dirt and sand.

I totally agree and I get the leaf blower (I've tried it myself), but a chamois, by its nature absorbs better than a cotton towel, thereby eliminating wipes.

I have been using Zaino polish with the excelerator, then Z6 or Z8 and the new ZCS with a last Z8 and the paint feels like butter and the shine is amazing. And with how easy it is to apply, I think I have found a system that I can keep up with regularly. Especially on a black car.

A good friend of mine drives black CLK and he is a Zaino user and swears by it. To be honest, it's not so much that I think there is a significant difference between Zaino and Meguiars, its just that I live in NJ and getting Zaino here is difficult and I find Meguiars easier to use.

And as to your preference for Maquires, check this test out. It was done by a real person and not influenced by advertisement dollars. the test was actually between Zymol and Zaino, and the person doing the test was a Zymol user.

http://www.ffcobra.com/magazine/waxtest.html

I don't doubt the results, but I think all such tests are apt to have subjective conclusions, see this http://pages.sbcglobal.net/gheumann/zaino_test/

In any event, I use the NXT Tech Wax, which is a polymer sealant (much like the Zaino stuff). Pretty much everything I use is Meguiars, except for my clay bar, which I prefer clay magic.

[smooth1]

If you read comparison test I put up you would have seen that they agree that all shined about the same after application. The depressing part was after the 4 week period where Maguires was applied there was nothing left, and Zaino and Zymol both held up.

To use a chamios I'm pretty sure is more of a personal preference.You have a white IS? You can get away with alot more. Even silver hides really well. But black, and dark blue show everything. So I have to use a natural hair brush to wash the car, then I blow dry it, and then I go over the car with the cotton towel. Even a chamios on a black car will show the very small beaded water lines that it leaves behind. So even when I used a chamios, I would end up going over it again with another towel.

And as for hiding scratches and going the extra mile, Then you can apply a carnuba wax over a polymer paint sealant. And just refresh the wax coats to help as a protective barrier over the paint sealant.

[SW03ES]

I'm not a fan of Zaino OR cotton terry towels. I prefer microfiber towels, specifically waffle weave microfiber towels for drying.

[smooth1]

So what do you use SW03ES? I know your a carnuba wax person, which is why you don't like Zaino. I have to say that after going thru the Zaino steps, when I was done, the paint was soft and shine was incredibly deep. Until I wasn't convinced until I was done. The Florida sun is so strong, that carnuba wax just doesn't hold up long enouph. And I think if you test your towels and find they don't scratch, then keep using them. But most towels do leave fine scratches. So whatever you decide to use, be careful and consider your tools. I see alot of people use shop rags and old t-shirts and stuff, even cheap microfiber towels will scratch. So I think the point here is that you do need to use a high quality towel to prevent scratches.

[Lazar1389]

If you read comparison test I put up you would have seen that they agree that all shined about the same after application. The depressing part was after the 4 week period where Maguires was applied there was nothing left, and Zaino and Zymol both held up.

Actually my point was that on the internet you can pretty much find anything (guys who say the government dropped the buildings on 9/11). I don't even know that the link I gave was reliable, just that it was out there. My opinion comes from my experience. I actually thought Zaino is pretty good, just not better or worth the extra steps to getting it.

[SW03ES]

So what do you use SW03ES? I know your a carnuba wax person, which is why you don't like Zaino. I have to say that after going thru the Zaino steps, when I was done, the paint was soft and shine was incredibly deep. Until I wasn't convinced until I was done. The Florida sun is so strong, that carnuba wax just doesn't hold up long enouph. And I think if you test your towels and find they don't scratch, then keep using them. But most towels do leave fine scratches. So whatever you decide to use, be careful and consider your tools. I see alot of people use shop rags and old t-shirts and stuff, even cheap microfiber towels will scratch. So I think the point here is that you do need to use a high quality towel to prevent scratches.

That was a mistype sorry, I meant to say I'm not a fact of chamois or terry towels.

I don't dislike Zaino, I just don't care for how it looks on dark colored cars.

[Lazar1389]

I don't dislike Zaino, I just don't care for how it looks on dark colored cars.

I actually think there is a small margin of difference between *most* products. Meguiars was always the company with a decent product and the WORST packaging. They finally figured it out... the entire NXT line is the best packaged stuff on the planet. I want to buy it all on looks alone.

Like I said before, because I'm in NJ and getting Zaino in NJ is like finding oil in Ohio, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The stuff is good IMHO, just not worth the extra hassle.

[smooth1]

I just ordered everything from here: http://www.zainostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

Everything showed up in 4 days at my door.

[Lazar1389]

I just ordered everything from here: http://www.zainostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc

I'm beginning to think you're doubting me.

From the Zaino website:

Shipping is only $8.95 to 47 contiguous states.

"47 states"... notice that is not all of them? If you keep reading, you get to this line...

For NEW JERSEY, HAWAII or INTERNATIONAL (including Canada) customers, please CLICK HERE.

Now, since I told you I was in NJ, I fall into that category, in which case, you send an email (which nobody responds to). Then you next contact Sal Zaino directly who sends you an email which says, you have two choices, go to a supplier in South Jersey (about an hour and forty five minutes from my house) OR call a supplie in PA to ship to you). They give you the guy in PA's phone number and of course, he doesn't answer, you get really crappy sounding answering machine. You leave a message.

He calls you back, six days later. Do you still want Zaino? Yes, if you are an idiot.

[smooth1]

oh, I'm not in NJ, or those places, so I never read that stuff. Sorry.

I thought you just didn't know where to get it from. Hmmm, what if you had it shipped to releative in another state and then have them ship it to you?

[Lazar1389]

I thought you just didn't know where to get it from. Hmmm, what if you had it shipped to releative in another state and then have them ship it to you?

Or, I could drive over to Pep Boys (2 minutes away) and get instant gratification. :P

[smooth1]

The only problem with that, is I have yet to find a commercial, off the shelf wax or paint sealant that really does compare to some of the others on the market like PS21, Zymol, Zaino, and some others. I know alot of people swear by Maguires and Mothers. But I have found that therre are 2 different scenarios that define the product. One is the oxodized, weather worn, or neglected paint finishes. Of course almost any descent product is going to result with dramatic improvements. As the difference of before and after is so visably different. In this case, almost anyone using almost any wax or paint sealant will be very impressed with the results. I think this is where Maguires and some of the others on the shelf live.

In number 2 scenario, though, is the ability to keep new paint looking new, and not introducing damage to it in order to maintain it. In my opinion, this is much more difficult to do than scenario one. The car care products have a bench mark that is already set, (being the new car finish.) Every scratch will be introduced, and noticed as time goes by. Whereas in scenario one, scratches are already so abundant, and the finish so dull, that again, just adding shine to the finish will be a huge improvement. Also at some point there comes into this, your desire for it. Some people wax the car for having to have it done, some people wax the car for the pleasure of doing it, the feeling of driving that car afterwards, and so on. This is where I think the higher quality car care products come in to play. Being able to claen the paint, remove the contamintants, be able to be applied without damgaing the paint, ( this is the human factor, not just the wax or paint sealant's responsibility.) In most cases we scratch the paint washing, the car, applying the polish, removing the polish, applying the wax and removing the wax. So, I guess I just figure if I'm going to go thru the extra steps to make sure I don't scratch or swirl mark the paint up, then I want to know that the wax or paint sealant I'm using will step up to that level or beyond in performing the job it's supposed to do.

[Lazar1389]

The only problem with that, is I have yet to find a commercial, off the shelf wax or paint sealant that really does compare to some of the others on the market like PS21, Zymol, Zaino, and some others.

Well, I'm sure that is what the manufacturers of those products want you to believe that. Expensive must = better, right?

In number 2 scenario, though, is the ability to keep new paint looking new, and not introducing damage to it in order to maintain it. In my opinion, this is much more difficult to do than scenario one.

But I told you, on the internet, you can find anything. Read this guys story: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28621

What I find about Zaino users (more so than any other brand user, be it, Klasse, P21s, Adams, Pinnacle etc..) is that they are very "attached" to their product. They remind me of Valentine 1 radar detector owners.

The reality is, I'm not married to Meguiars and would switch products in a second if I thought it wasn't doing the job. I've seen and tried a lot of waxes/sealants, like Zaino, P21s, Klasse, Zymol, Turtle and Meguiars and although I think there is some difference between each, I really think you are overstating the case.

In fact, most "moderate" Zaino users, kind of concede that NXT looks better but fall back (like you) on the "protection" and lasting argument. Well, that might apply to me if I really planned on keeping my car more than about 5 years, but let me ask you how many times have you seen a 5 year old Lexus cared for in an ordinary fashion have the paint peal off?

In 1992, my father bought his first Lexus (an '93 ES300). He kept is until 2003. On the day he traded it, it looked fantastic. It had been waxed (maybe about 5-10 times over the life of the car), was kept in a garage and hand washed regularly (and occasionally washed in a touchless wash). Would it have looked better if he had used Zaino, NXT, Klasse, P21s etc...? Maybe, but it really looked fine. He traded it for a new ES and got a pretty decent amount for the car.

At the end of the day, I think the NXT gives my car a bit more "pop" than normal, but also gives me something to do on the weekends (detailing is therapeutic to me). Don't take this product stuff too seriously. Life is too short.

[smooth1]

I'm not a product pusher. And I'm definatley not a Zaino junkie. I'm not really sure any product I have ever used has completely sold me. Although I do think the application method for Zaino is the one of the best I have found so far.

Every product over states their abilities. And not just car care products, I mean just about everything in advertisement print.

And again, I think it's about your level of interest. Take golf, if your a 120+ hacker, no matter how much you spend on clubs, it won't fix that. But if your a 2 handicap, I never see Kmart, and Walmart clubs sticking out of the bag. If your a once or twice a year fisherman, then Zebco blister pack fishing poles will be fine, but if your a Bass Master fisherman, then your fishing equipment tends to be much more expensive also. Even your tools reflect your level of skill as professionals use high quality tools and specialty devices to master thier trade with. I don't know how you would feel taking your care to a mechanic and he pulls out a 140 piece WorkForce kit. LOL!!

While I know price doesn't directly reflect quality or ability, I do know there is a difference between what you buy in the stores off the shelves, and what real proffressionals use, and what real enthusiasts use.

[flop170]

^^^^^ well said!!!!

[Lazar1389]

And again, I think it's about your level of interest. Take golf, if your a 120+ hacker, no matter how much you spend on clubs, it won't fix that. But if your a 2 handicap, I never see Kmart, and Walmart clubs sticking out of the bag. If your a once or twice a year fisherman, then Zebco blister pack fishing poles will be fine, but if your a Bass Master fisherman, then your fishing equipment tends to be much more expensive also. Even your tools reflect your level of skill as professionals use high quality tools and specialty devices to master thier trade with. I don't know how you would feel taking your care to a mechanic and he pulls out a 140 piece WorkForce kit. LOL!!

While I know price doesn't directly reflect quality or ability, I do know there is a difference between what you buy in the stores off the shelves, and what real proffressionals use, and what real enthusiasts use.

What you said makes sense on a theoretical level, but not in the real world and certainly not with regard to car care products. Here is why... there is NO objective measure to prove what you say. Unlike your examples of golf and fishing, we can make specific OBJECTIVE determinations regarding toe and heel center line divergence, distance and accuracy from consistent hitting (robot arm). Likewise, the same can be said with respect to fishing rod strength and sensitivity.

That is why golf club manufacturers can safely say things like "hit the ball 30% longer". Sure it comes with an asterisk, but they have had at least some objective measure to quantify the claim.

With car care products it is all subjective hyperbole. You say Zaino, I say Meguiars, John Doe says Zymol and Grandpa Jack says Turtle Wax. Where is the objective test in a controlled environment that uses a SCIENTIC APPROACH to get results.

Think about this for a second... Sal Zaino is by all intents a millionaire. All he would need to do is commission a study by independent scientists and forensic engineers to test his product vs. the competition. He could have objective conclusions that would PROVE his product is better, but he doesn't do it... nor do the Meguiars folks, nor do the Klasse people etc...

Why not? The reason is because there are no reliably quantifiable ways to measure which is better. I gave you a link to a guy who swears Zaino ruined his car. Do you believe it? You're probably smart if you don't, just as I don't believe pretty much everything I read online.

The last thing I have to say on this subject goes back to the price = quality bit. Right now, go to www.zymol.com. On there page, you'll find a car wax called Solaris for $30,000. By your measure, this must mean it is at least 300 times better than the full Zaino kit which is about $90.

The reality is, some marketting guy at Zymol is smart enough to know there is a billionaire out there who just bought his son a Maybach and the little moron will by Solaris because he can, not because it is better. For all we know, Solaris is really turtlewax and Zaino is really Grandma's footbath water. Save your money, you might actually need it one day on something that really matters!

[bartkat]

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

[Lazar1389]

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

Haven't tried it??? Of course I've tried it. I keep a bottle of Solaris in my bathroom because I use it to wax my bathtub (I love the "sunny" feel of it all. :P

[joeb427]

Electric leaf blower and 100% US cotton towels.

I love most of the Zaino product line!

[smooth1]

Ok, the whole cost and quality theory is not what I was referring to. I guess I need to be more specific. The reason I use Mizuno MP-67 irons is because I love the way they feel in my hands. I have connected with the way they launch the golf ball and the trajectory it produces. Does that make them better than Titleist, or Clevelands or Taylormades? One my scale, yes, absolutely. On the grand scale, maybe yes in some areas, no in others, and overall maybe yes, maybe no. It's not just about the results. Because most companies have a different philosphy or approach in attaining those goals. Mizuno uses double grain flow forging to help make the materials they use in their irons better. Does it? Why don't any of the other manufacturers use that process? Even with with scientific approaches there are many different theories and diverse approaches. Most golf companies 7 irons hit about the same yardage, which is the result. But some like to have a lower ball flight, and some like to add more spin for better control once the ball has landed, and some like a higher ball flight with a softer landing. Some clubs have a solid feel at impact and others have a softer more distinguished feel to them. So if you went to a range and simply bought the club that you hit the furthest with, you would have in my opinion made a mistake, as there are so many other aspects and characteristics to use as a judging factors.

Car care products are no different. Most all contain different amount of carnuba wax, some use white, some use yellow, and some combine both. I've seen Maguires, 17% carnuba, to Zymol 70%. ( Those are just examples. I'm not really sure of the exact amounts.) And even in those cases, it's not just about the wax, it's about the other chemicals and make up that distinguish thier differences, as they pursue thier philosphy and develope thier products. Zaino doesn't use wax or parafins or teflon. It's a totally different approach to car care. So do alot of the paint sealants that use Teflon based products, or some other base or philosphy for paint protection and beautification. And by the way, the reason that most car care products produce simular results is because we all have simular disired results and expectations. After I Zaino'd my car, I could stand there and read the stop sign clearly and beyond 4 houses down the street in the reflection of the finish. It was by all means, mirror clear and shine. How much more could you possibly ask of any wax or paint sealant? So most products have attained a simular result. But I see a huge difference in approach and philosphy. I just happen to agree with Zaino's approach. ( For now.) I like the idea that I don't have to use a buffer to get the results I'm getting. I have an Obsidian Black IS 350. I have no swirl marks and the only light scratches are the ones the car came with. I can go out to the garage and spend the day detailing my car, and know that I have nothing to worry about, and the finish is going to awsome. It holds up great, and the paint feels soft and slick and the reflections are a mile deep. 90 bucks, and I'm happy. :)

[Lazar1389]

Well, I guess ultimately we all create our own reality.

I don't know if I "like" or "agree with" Meguiars approach, or Zaino's approach or old man Joe's approach. Frankly, I really don't care enough. What I do care about are the results. You are happy with your results, as I am with mine. I'm sure if we put our cars together (assuming they were the same color - mine is white), we'd probably come to a different conclusion in terms of shine and/or protection. It's the nature of the beast.... the mind sees what it wants to see.

Although, I think we could probably conclusively determine that Zaino probably lasts longer on a given surface than most store shelf products (I'm just not convinced that really means anything).

I can appreciate what you wrote about clubs, as my experience was similar. I went to the store and basically hit a bunch of clubs and amazingly thought the Titleist's I bought felt the best. I think most might have come to a different conclusion because they are very unforgiving but seemed to work for me. They certainly aren't the longest or the straightest, but I hit them about as well as I probably could hit anything (on my best day I'm a 14 handicap - although if I went out today, I'd probably be much closer to a 20).

I'd say the same is true for me with respect to car care products. I've tried many and have yet to see anything to convince me that it made sense to switch. When I find the club to get me on the senior tour (eventually), I'll switch, like wise for waxes... when they turn my IS350 into an IS-F, I'll switch.

[SW03ES]

I'll share a little secret with you. If you wash your car weekly, even in an automatic carwash, the paint will look new or be in a condition where a detailer can bring it up to like new status fairly easily for MANY years to come. Modern car paint is that durable.

Zaino is a great product. Yes there have been scientific tests (GuruReport) that prove its one of the longest lasting products and with my experience I believe that. The question is does that hold any benefit to YOU? I personally don't like the way it looks, and I wax my car fairly often so the longevity isn't an issue.

There is a GREAT disparity in the quality of products however.