2008 Lexus Ls600h L Review - Autoweek

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Guys!! :)

I hope you're OK.

Click on THIS to read a road test/review of the 2008 Lexus LS600h L.

I'm confused.

How does adding two electric motors that produce 221 horsepower to a 5.0 litre V8 engine that produces 389 h.p. end up producing a combined total horsepower rating of just 438?! Doesn't 221 and 389 equal 610?

Craig!! :)

[SW03ES]

They also said Lexus expects to sell 30k of them a year which is not true, they expect to sell 30K LS vehicles, including the LS460, the LS460L, and the LS600hL.

I'm dubious as to their validity. In a hybrid powertrain you do indeed add the HP of the electric motors and the gas motor to get a rough hp estimate.

[SKperformance]

The original intent was in the 500 hp range from early releases but they dropped the official power rating severely.

Too bad it should make 600 real easy.

[jainla]

They also said Lexus expects to sell 30k of them a year which is not true, they expect to sell 30K LS vehicles, including the LS460, the LS460L, and the LS600hL.

I think I read somewhere that US sales were supposed to be like 2k? and Worldwide maybe 5-8k?

I'm dubious as to their validity. In a hybrid powertrain you do indeed add the HP of the electric motors and the gas motor to get a rough hp estimate.

This is typical; the 3.5L V6 in the GS450 makes about 270hp; and the extra 2 motors only add about 40hp to the peak system power.

I believe that most of this is due to the fact that the motors generate their maximum torque at 0rpm and start to decline gradually as the RPM increase. So as the power curve of the motors decline and the V8 increases the electric motors may indeed only be adding about 50hp at their combined highest point. I bet however that the spread and breadth of the power curve is much larger than a typical gas-only drivetrain.

Some of their other claims are dubous; that the LS400 was not cross compared with the S Class and 7 series when it came out (it was). They don't seem to have many comments on the power; quiet, etc etc. Did they really drive the car?

Also odd they claim that the mfr 0-60 is 5.5 seconds...slower than the LS460?

[EDIT]

Well I guess 800 extra pounds and AWD really does take away any advantage:

Edmunds Review from Hank in another thread.

[Rx330driver]

there are some mixed reviews, pretty recent video on edmunds inside line.

problem is that 438 horses seems adequate, but the hybrid pack adds 900 extra pounds thus performance is the same as the LS460...

mileage isnt all that great either

[CanadaCraig]

And click on THIS to see just how expensive the new Hybrid LS's are in Canada.

OUCH!!

Craig!! :)

[SW03ES]

The real benefit of the hybrid powertrain is in torque not horsepower anyways. As for performance, RX can you quote us some 0-60 figures? I'd be extremely surprised if the 600hL was not significantly quicker than the LS460.

[Hank Brandenburg]

Folks - I put a deposit down on a 600hL back in January, as I was very intrigued by this model. After what I've read, I can't see paying all the extra money for so little (if any) gain. In some ways it is less desirable to me ...

I just switched from an LS600hL to an LS460L customer!

Now, does anyone know when the 2008 model year will LS460 be released?

[jainla]

The real benefit of the hybrid powertrain is in torque not horsepower anyways. As for performance, RX can you quote us some 0-60 figures? I'd be extremely surprised if the 600hL was not significantly quicker than the LS460.

From the Edmunds Review:

Our best acceleration times in the preproduction test car came with the system set on "Power" and the transmission in Sport mode. The 0-to-60-mph sprint took 6.0 seconds and the quarter-mile went by in 14.3 seconds at 101 mph. For a big, heavy sedan, that's not bad, but the conventional LS 460 L is just as quick. It hits 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and rips through the quarter-mile in the same 14.3 seconds.

This isn't much of a surprise, since the LS 600h L and LS 460 L have similar power-to-weight ratios. Each of the hybrid's 438 ponies must lug 11.9 pounds, while each of the LS 460 L's carries 11.4, and the cheaper car doesn't have to overcome the parasitic drag inherent in an all-wheel-drive system.

I must say I'm disappointed...I was hoping for something closer to 5.0....

Aside from the satisfaction of driving a hybrid (and everyone who can tell knowing you paid way more) what's the point? They can only quote 2008 EPA figures, and I don't know what those are for the 460 because the system changes for MY 2008 to more realistically reflect real world milege...I want to say that I saw somewhere they are like 17/24. So you might get a teensy bit better city mileage.

Aside from the quiet and AWD there's not that much that temps my (mythical) 20 grand. Hopefully the production cars are faster?

[Rx330driver]

lol somebody quoted it for me, thanks.

i think lexus kinda, dare i say it, dropped the ball on this hybrid. the real highest flagship should be the ultimate vehicle. this is not enough.

[jainla]

lol somebody quoted it for me, thanks.

i think lexus kinda, dare i say it, dropped the ball on this hybrid. the real highest flagship should be the ultimate vehicle. this is not enough.

Yeah I agree it has to be faster. Even if it's just on paper like 2 tenths of a second faster.

This same criticism was hurled at Mercedes when the S600 wasn't turbocharged; it was (for all intents and purposes) no quicker than the S500; and yet it was less efficient and cost way more. I bet that's the reason they decided to drop the 2 turbos in there...to really differentiate the product.

At this point I think if they bored the V8 out to 5.5. litres and then added the hybrid system it might be a compelling proposition; the hybrid system would help with city mileage and then the transmission could be geared to give decent highway mileage; with substantially better performance.

I was looking around on the BMW site and they quote the 750Li/760Li as having identical 0-60 performance. If they added AWD to the 760 it would probably be slower than the RWD 750. So I guess they are thinking that that Hybrid badge is worth what the 760 badge is worth? At this point they might be better off with a full V12.

Lexus is betting that people will want to drive a hybrid for sake of driving a hybrid; and I doubt that will be convincing to people in this price range. At this level (I would think) people either want more performance (faster faster!!) or more luxury (princesses with palm fronds feeding me grapes please). Or they want the brand. Witness why Rolls Royces continue to sell at 4 times the cost of an LS460 without being (IMHO) 4x better.

[SW03ES]

Have you driven say an RX400h compared to an RX350 and a GS450h compared to a GS430? The acceleration times are also fairly similar but the hybrid has a lot more torque right off the line and has the CVT which provides a shiftless acceleration experience. In my opinion the hyrbids "feel" faster whether they are faster or not. Plus you still get unique colors and wheels, the LED headlamps and few other features the LS460L doesn't have for not a whole lot more money. You're talking about maybe $10,000 difference between the hybrid and a similarly equipped LS460L.

I personally wouldn't buy a 600hL over an LS460, but I wouldn't buy a loaded LS460L either. If the car interests you, reserve judgement until you actually drive it before you give up on it.

[jainla]

Have you driven say an RX400h compared to an RX350 and a GS450h compared to a GS430? The acceleration times are also fairly similar but the hybrid has a lot more torque right off the line and has the CVT which provides a shiftless acceleration experience. In my opinion the hyrbids "feel" faster whether they are faster or not.

Yes I have driven both. The RX didn't really impress me that much; but the GS450h was fun to drive...the CVT and the immediate torque give quite the rush. However the trunk is tiny and you do feel that extra weight in the curves. In the end there is just not enough headroom in the GS so it's not really an option for me. :(

Plus you still get unique colors and wheels, the LED headlamps and few other features the LS460L doesn't have for not a whole lot more money. You're talking about maybe $10,000 difference between the hybrid and a similarly equipped LS460L.

I think the difference is more like $20,000; the 600 comes with Nav/ML and a couple other options which spec out to about 82k (from what I can tell) on a 460L. I think the exec seating package is still an option; as are park assist and APCS.

I personally wouldn't buy a 600hL over an LS460, but I wouldn't buy a loaded LS460L either. If the car interests you, reserve judgement until you actually drive it before you give up on it.

I'm certainly not giving up on it but I think we all expected more. In many other ways the LS460 and cars that came before it reinvented their part of the segment; they exceed their competitors in many ways with every new generation. The Hybrid while a technological marvel just doesn't seem to bring that much more to the table for the everyday driver; especially compared to the A8L or S600 (I agree the 750/760 decision is a wash). I know more than one potential LS460 shopper who said they didn't want the hybrid (this goes back to my continuing question...is "hybrid" really a killer application at this price point). The only big plus is that the price jump is not quite as high as the german cars.

Also many people (the press) make value judgements soley based on numbers. If the car provided AWD and the same or better acceleration with better mileage than an LS460 then I think the case could still be made that it was worth another 20k (as well as reduced trunk space and increased weight); but until we get the real EPA estimates and production performance data it's too close to call. Since the value of the brand is judged on part based on the press if the press isn't in love with it the the brand suffers.

Also the LS 460 has set the bar very high; with 8 speeds the engine never feels down on power and it's very responsive; yet still more efficient than it's competition. In the end Lexus may have shot themselves in the foot by doing too good a job with the 'base' car....there's just not much to improve on. That all said if a 600h followed me home one night I certainly wouldn't chase it away. And I will be first in line to drive it at this fall's TOL. :)

[SW03ES]

I hadn't even thought about the AWD, having driven the LS in the snow thats a huge plus trust me.

I don't disagree with you, just wait and see though.

[jainla]

I hadn't even thought about the AWD, having driven the LS in the snow thats a huge plus trust me.

I don't disagree with you, just wait and see though.

Well here's another review...this one glowing from Car and Driver (who were not as enamoured with the 460).

http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests...us-ls600hl.html

At least these guys claim the car drives differently than the base model car. They also tested it significantly faster (although their 460 was almost .5 seconds slower than lexus claims.)

The plot thickens...

[SW03ES]

Yep, gotta wait and see for yourself.

[Helmar]

I was much cheered by the review by Car and Driver. Quick off the line is sometimes just the rush I need along with morning coffee. It should also be interesting seeing how often I can start up in battery only and how long I can stay there.

There's a great deal of conflicting information out there, I guess I'll just have to wait and see for myself....

However the trunk is tiny ... And I will be first in line to drive it at this fall's TOL. :)

This was a major concern of mine when I chose the LS600hL, especially since they force you to get the cool box if you want the radar cruise control. I understand that the cool box reduces trunk space even further....

By the way, what's TOL?

I hadn't even thought about the AWD, having driven the LS in the snow thats a huge plus trust me.

The AWD is a major reason I chose the LS600hL over an LS460. This will be an all season car for me, and here in Maine, AWD is a must for me. My previous LS's were terrible in the snow with regular or all-season tires, but improved a great deal with snow tires.

HBH

[mehullica]

Had the extreme pleasure of driving a LS600h L yesterday. I was one of the lucky ones from each dealer that got to go to SoCal and drive one for a couple hours. It is worth every penny of the $109,000 base price. Unruly power, the AWD feels great. Turning in tight corners is easy also. After getting into a Ls460L the difference is really noticeable. The 600hL has so much more power and torque. Compared to any 12 cylinder Audi, Benz, or BMW, the LS600hL wins hands down. Way lower emissions than any of the others, way better MPG, More power (except for the Benz 600 twin-turbo). With the SULEV emission rating it's nearly 2 levels ahead of any competition, more hp and torque, quicker 50-70 mph acceleration, for way less $$. Great car. Too bad production will be limited. 100 Neiman Marcus editions, 1 of which goes to Cedar-Sinai Hospital, and 500 for 08 model year.