Ls Navigation -- Call For A Class Action?

[Rx330driver]

many people have gone as far as to remove their dash and to cut a wire. I highly doubt anyone would do that to an LS460...i wouldnt even do it to an IS. lol.

I agree that lexus still cares about customer service. I just had to have something fixed yesterday from my air suspension, and the guy tried to "pretend" that i still had warranty, but to his and my dismay, no part was needed, only a wire that would not be covered under warranty. He was able to knock off 50 dollars from the labor and 10% off my service. tell me that you get that experience from a merc or bmw dealership. Ive never even had a cup of coffee from Merc!

anywhoo, rumor has it that this new software cannot simply be hacked via simple buttons through the service menu. And if they are, they arent letting anybody know about it. How often do you guys use nav anyways? seems like everday...you should know your own city.

[needone]

I agree that lexus still cares about customer service. I just had to have something fixed yesterday from my air suspension, and the guy tried to "pretend" that i still had warranty, but to his and my dismay, no part was needed, only a wire that would not be covered under warranty. He was able to knock off 50 dollars from the labor and 10% off my service. tell me that you get that experience from a merc or bmw dealership. Ive never even had a cup of coffee from Merc!

I want to be very clear on this; the Lexus that doesn't seem to really care about CS is the group that positions itself between the artistry of the engineering/manufacturing operation and the considerate and concerned Dealers. This is the group that buries options within options. restrists build options geographically, places arbitrary limitations on functionallity we have paid for, pushes every problem back on the dealer and probably badgers the dealers in ways we can't even imagine. This is the group that I think is only interested in talking to people who are already satisfied. Look what they did to Lexus Link! Like you, I have had many very favorable experiences with my dealer, I have complete confidence in and respect for my dealer. It may be irony that because the dealers are so good that the Lexus middle management is eager to hide behind them.

How often do you guys use nav anyways? seems like everday...you should know your own city.

If you haven't been exposed, in depth, to the Nav system in its' newest generation configuration you can't appreciate why the nav system is used consistently. My wife,dog and I do about 500 miles a week just poking around. The power of the POI portion of the package alone, makes the passenger want to use it frequently. The linkage with bluetooth only reinforces the potential advantages offered by the system, but denied by the lockout. Although not part of this thread, the lockout of the Mark Levinson functions is similarly arbitrary, disappointing and distracting.

Spend some windshield time in a 460 and you'll probably have a deeper understanding of the problem.

[needone]

Someone just needs to find a way to have the software interrupt the sensor when the screen is not on the map display.

Now you're talking SW03ES, it beats cutting a wire in that the map screen will always have the speed input. Do you suppose Bill Gates has a 460?

[SW03ES]

anywhoo, rumor has it that this new software cannot simply be hacked via simple buttons through the service menu. And if they are, they arent letting anybody know about it. How often do you guys use nav anyways? seems like everday...you should know your own city.

I use the nav everyday, but I'm constantly out looking at properties etc. Plus with the LS460 you have the XM NavTraffic which makes it useful even if you know the way.

The problem ius further exacerbated on the Ls460 because of the other non-nav functions that are blocked when in motion.

Now you're talking SW03ES, it beats cutting a wire in that the map screen will always have the speed input. Do you suppose Bill Gates has a 460?

Hes always driven the LS, he might.

As far as trying to find a software solution, that is the answer but trying to get Lexus to do is is a fool's errand. You'll get nowhere, concentrate on the aftermarket.

[LS460L]

For a list of cars owned by the Top-10 Billionaires, see this link:

http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/...llionaires.html

I didn't see a Lexus among them.

[SW03ES]

Whether he owns them now or not Bill Gates has owned 3 Lexus cars, a 1990 LS400, a 1997 LS400 and an SC400.

[needone]

Back on June 5th tjfair posted the following suggestion: " With absolute faith in the ingenuity of the American entrepreneur, I expect a simple third party solution from http://www.coastaletech.com/ soon. For those of you who want a fix to this problem, send an email to support@coastaletech.com and tell Dave how much you are looking forward to a lockpick for the 2006 LS 460. This might just be enough incentive for him to focus his resources on our particular variety of DVD/nav..."

Accordinglh, I sent the following e-mail to the suggested address. Their response is included at the end of my e-mail. Some of you may wish to add encouragement to Costaltech with a message of your own. (Scottielady, maybe your offer of a $1000 reward would peak their interest)

To: <support@coastaletech.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:17 AM

Subject: Lockpicks for 2007 Lexus LS460

> There is a pretty heated thread on the Lexus owners club website

> regarding unhappiness with new Lexus owners over the lockout of very

> desireable functions on the Navigation system. The thread is not directly

> addressing the Mark Levinson Audio system, but many of the most useful

> screens are also blocked as soon as the car is in motion.

>

> One contributor to that forum suggested e-mailing you folks expressing our

> sincere interest in a workaround that would restore the designed

> funcionallity of systems we bought and paid for. It is my hope that you

> will see enough market for such a solution especially when you consider

> that the LS460 is just the first model that seems to have been heavily

> locked in this manner. It may not be long before the entire Lexus and

> perhaps Toyota lines will represent a lucrative market that your firm can

> serve.

Their response is below:

Thank you so much for your email and I will certainly pass on your interest

in the product.

Please let me know if I may assist you further : )

Kelley

http://www.coastaletech.com

mailto: support@coastaletech.com

[DArustik]

Back on June 5th tjfair posted the following suggestion: " With absolute faith in the ingenuity of the American entrepreneur, I expect a simple third party solution from http://www.coastaletech.com/ soon. For those of you who want a fix to this problem, send an email to support@coastaletech.com and tell Dave how much you are looking forward to a lockpick for the 2006 LS 460. This might just be enough incentive for him to focus his resources on our particular variety of DVD/nav..."

Accordinglh, I sent the following e-mail to the suggested address. Their response is included at the end of my e-mail. Some of you may wish to add encouragement to Costaltech with a message of your own. (Scottielady, maybe your offer of a $1000 reward would peak their interest)

To: <support@coastaletech.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 8:17 AM

Subject: Lockpicks for 2007 Lexus LS460

> There is a pretty heated thread on the Lexus owners club website

> regarding unhappiness with new Lexus owners over the lockout of very

> desireable functions on the Navigation system. The thread is not directly

> addressing the Mark Levinson Audio system, but many of the most useful

> screens are also blocked as soon as the car is in motion.

>

> One contributor to that forum suggested e-mailing you folks expressing our

> sincere interest in a workaround that would restore the designed

> funcionallity of systems we bought and paid for. It is my hope that you

> will see enough market for such a solution especially when you consider

> that the LS460 is just the first model that seems to have been heavily

> locked in this manner. It may not be long before the entire Lexus and

> perhaps Toyota lines will represent a lucrative market that your firm can

> serve.

Their response is below:

Thank you so much for your email and I will certainly pass on your interest

in the product.

Please let me know if I may assist you further : )

Kelley

http://www.coastaletech.com

mailto: support@coastaletech.com

HAHAHAHAHA Aren't their responses just like that %95 of the time!!!

[beefchopper]

If I get 50 or more posts to this subject (50 individuals), I'll be happy to post a letter and provide a way for folks to "digitally sign" the letter.

Who else agrees?

I'm with you on this. We have a 2004 LS 430, a vehicle I consider as closer to my idea of perfection than any car I've ever owned, as well as a 2004 RX 330 - both with navigation systems. If I were to list my single aggravating item about the car after three years of ownership, it would definitely be the lockout of navigation and telephone features, even if the car is barely rolling forward. There is the obvious distraction factor, but it's certainly no worse than any other of the many distractions a driver faces. So it takes responsibility on the part of the driver to know when to not be distracted, even for a very brief time. Your experience near Orlando has been repeated by me on more occasions than I care to recall. Include me as one of the 50, or however many this turns into.

I have a 2004 LS and use the following fix to get around the lockout. I understand this exact routine won't work with the 2007's but guess there is a similar way to access a secret service menu that will disable the lockout. Eventually someone will discover it and post it on the web. This definitely works for the 2004 LS:

Here are the steps:

1. push the menu button

2. press volume

3. touch the screen in this sequence: top left, bottom left, top left, bottom left

4. this will take you to the override screen

5. press and HOLD override until you hear a beep, and the icon is outlined

6. press back

7. press the map button

You'll now be able to operate the navigation/phone features while the car is in motion. The only drawback is that you'll have to repeat this sequence every time you restart the car...

[bchargnon]

Well, you could always put in a switch. Need to program the nav, disconnect the wheel speed sensor, or send a "car stationary" signal to the computer. Program what you want, and then reconnect. Of course, someone would have to figure out what wire to switch, and whether the switching will have any affect on the computer. I can't imagine that blowing up a computer will be cheap.

[jdub56]

Why on earth would you need to access a calendar on the nav screen while you're driving. Thats horribly unsafe. Hand your wife your phone and have her look it up while you safely and responsibly drive the car.

This is precisely why the lockouts exist...

To others reading this post: Whether you agree with Steve, me or somewhere in between, chime in. This is an open forum, and I want to hear what everyone has to say.

Hi

Being new to the forum and after reading the various posts about the usability features, and being invited to chime in, these are my thoughts. I am totally against the driver being able to delve into the nav system while driving. I also wish I could find an electrical device that could disable all cell phone within a mile radius of me. I daily watch people run red lights, swerve out of their lane, and do other unsafe actions. About 99% of the people I see have a cell phone to their ear. I have a cell phone also and am not hampered by the limitation placed on me by my 2005 LS 430. While I agree that certain things should be operator choices, some things are better left to others. In California, the helmet law was finally passed and motorcycle deaths went down. Personally, I think that should be the operators choice but alas it's not. In the lawsuit happy time we live in, Toyota must protect their interests. Think about McDonald's and the lawsuit by the woman who burned herself with the hot coffee.

Just my feelings.

[thrang]

Why on earth would you need to access a calendar on the nav screen while you're driving. Thats horribly unsafe. Hand your wife your phone and have her look it up while you safely and responsibly drive the car.

This is precisely why the lockouts exist...

To others reading this post: Whether you agree with Steve, me or somewhere in between, chime in. This is an open forum, and I want to hear what everyone has to say.

Hi

Being new to the forum and after reading the various posts about the usability features, and being invited to chime in, these are my thoughts. I am totally against the driver being able to delve into the nav system while driving. I also wish I could find an electrical device that could disable all cell phone within a mile radius of me. I daily watch people run red lights, swerve out of their lane, and do other unsafe actions. About 99% of the people I see have a cell phone to their ear. I have a cell phone also and am not hampered by the limitation placed on me by my 2005 LS 430. While I agree that certain things should be operator choices, some things are better left to others. In California, the helmet law was finally passed and motorcycle deaths went down. Personally, I think that should be the operators choice but alas it's not. In the lawsuit happy time we live in, Toyota must protect their interests. Think about McDonald's and the lawsuit by the woman who burned herself with the hot coffee.

Just my feelings.

Why not limit the speed of all their cars to 65 mph? Take out phone integration completely. Disable all audio controls, and while they're at it, make all the cars one-seaters, since talking to fellow passengers is probably the biggest distraction of all.

Sorry to be sarcastic, but bad drivers exist regardless of how many or how few distractions there are. That's ultimately a individual proclivity.

And the lockout brings its own set of issues. Mentally, speaking out certain directions can reduce your focus, and pulling on and off the road, sometimes through lanes of traffic, to get to the POI features can't be considered safe.

I doubt this is about liabilty, or all auto manufactuers would have the same attitude. BMW is cavalier about lawsuits? I think Lexus just lumped this decision in under subjective "safety" considerations, and they need to reconsider this. It would be very easy to provide a waiver process that you activate and the system records if they were concerned about lawsuits.

And with all the systems out there (OEM and aftermarket) for all these years, can anyone point to a plethora of lawsuits by drivers that got into accidents because of full-access nav systems?

Video is very different - that requires continuous monitoring, and should be disabled when driving. But nav access is temporary, like accessing many other functions of the car, and should be enabled.

[SW03ES]

I doubt this is about liabilty, or all auto manufactuers would have the same attitude. BMW is cavalier about lawsuits? I think Lexus just lumped this decision in under subjective "safety" considerations, and they need to reconsider this. It would be very easy to provide a waiver process that you activate and the system records if they were concerned about lawsuits.

Most auto manufacturers DO lockout their nav systems in the same way Lexus does, for the 30th time.

[rbhirsch1]

I too have the LS460 and have found that it is possible to reprogram the nav POI with audio commands, while still driving.

Try it.

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the Lexus LS460 Navigation lock-out and what we, as a group, can do to persuade Lexus that we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how.

Recently, on a trip in Florida, I needed to re-route around some traffic. I knew where I wanted to go (a POI I knew). My wife, in the passenger's seat, was perfectly able to use the navigation system, were it not for the fact that it was locked out while we were in motion. I had to pull into a parking lot to make the selection. The traffic was so bad that getting back in took over 10 minutes (Orlando, go figure). The navigation system that was supposed to save me time ended up being more hindrance than help.

This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway, which is what some folks might do, or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination -- especially for the passenger to do the selection -- is both ludicrous and insulting.

I have more stories, but I'm sure you share most of them.

These features are "locked out" while the car is in motion, and I believe (as I think many of you may) that the use of these options should be our choice -- not the car maker's choice.

• Choosing a different destination (POI, Address, Phone, etc.)
  
• Choosing an album to play by selecting it directly, rather than having to page through them one-by-one
  
• Dialing a phone number when using the telephone
  
• Other features "locked out" during forward motion
  

What I want, and what I believe we all expect, is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

[betty460]

I will, I even google searched for it online but it didn't come up.

I agree with you, I don't understand why you can't use the phone buttons on the nav screen. You do however have the voice dialing control for the phone which works pretty well, as for who gets sued if someone is fiddling with a Garmin or iPod, I'm sure people have sued Garmin and Apple, and we all know how hard legislators are working to ban the use of cell phones and handheld devices in cars.

I'm from the school where I try and make the best of a situation. Since Lexus has been making these nav systems with these lockouts for nearly 10 years the odds of them changing that practice are not good. They have provided several new features to help increase the system's functionality while moving such as the voice interface which is MUCH improved and will only get better. I just prefer to try and make the system work for me and I have, it no longer bothers me.

If you want to try and organize a group to try and get Lexus to change this practice (as well as the many other companies who do this) go ahead, but I doubt you'll be successful.

[betty460]

I will, I even google searched for it online but it didn't come up.

I agree with you, I don't understand why you can't use the phone buttons on the nav screen. You do however have the voice dialing control for the phone which works pretty well, as for who gets sued if someone is fiddling with a Garmin or iPod, I'm sure people have sued Garmin and Apple, and we all know how hard legislators are working to ban the use of cell phones and handheld devices in cars.

I'm from the school where I try and make the best of a situation. Since Lexus has been making these nav systems with these lockouts for nearly 10 years the odds of them changing that practice are not good. They have provided several new features to help increase the system's functionality while moving such as the voice interface which is MUCH improved and will only get better. I just prefer to try and make the system work for me and I have, it no longer bothers me.

If you want to try and organize a group to try and get Lexus to change this practice (as well as the many other companies who do this) go ahead, but I doubt you'll be successful.

[betty460]

The navigational system needs to be operational when the car is in motion!!!!!!!

[FusedNova]

I'm coming to this party late but I just bought an LS460 and the locked out Nav system is killing me. I had a 2006 GS and used the backdoor bypass from the volume screen. They seemed to have disabled this in the new Nav system....great.

Anyway - add me to the list and if anyone has found a way to hack the syste, please let me know!

Thanks!

Dave

[sbdan]

Hi all,

there is a Nav Override available now. there is an extensive discussion on another forum. you may see it here:

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313365

it seems to unlock the entire system, and seems to be an easy install.

blessings,

daniel

[CO Mike]

Get used to it, and its not just Lexus that does it. Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law, and everybody will have to fall in line.

Lexus has been making the same navigation system with the same lockouts since 1998, this is not new. Its heralded as the best in the business by tons of publications too.

Like I said in another thread, I've had this nav system for 4 years and I don't get it. Just set your destination before you leave or pull over. You don't need to be careening down the highway at 85MPH setting destinations anyways. I drive 25k miles a year and use the nav system extensively, it no longer bothers me.

You made reference to the DOT -- "Sometime soon the DOT will make these lockouts law..." Could you please forward me either a link to that source or direct me to whomever gave you that information?

As a general note, I've been pleased with the comments from various folks. I, too, have had the navigation system in my other cars -- and, yes I had it in my 430 (which I could override when necessary). My choice in a Japanese car over a German car is purely personal. While I am happy the Germans did not worry so much about litigation, I no longer purchase Mercedes or BMW -- not a ding in any way (they are fine vehicles), just my personal choice these days.

I appreciate your (and everyone's) responses.

Could you expand on the comment regarding your ability to override the nav lock out on your 430? I have a 2002 LS430 Ultra and would love to access it at my convenience, not when mother Lexus thinks I should.

Thank you,

Mike

[dery45]

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the Lexus LS460 Navigation lock-out and what we, as a group, can do to persuade Lexus that we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how.

Recently, on a trip in Florida, I needed to re-route around some traffic. I knew where I wanted to go (a POI I knew). My wife, in the passenger's seat, was perfectly able to use the navigation system, were it not for the fact that it was locked out while we were in motion. I had to pull into a parking lot to make the selection. The traffic was so bad that getting back in took over 10 minutes (Orlando, go figure). The navigation system that was supposed to save me time ended up being more hindrance than help.

This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway, which is what some folks might do, or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination -- especially for the passenger to do the selection -- is both ludicrous and insulting.

I have more stories, but I'm sure you share most of them.

These features are "locked out" while the car is in motion, and I believe (as I think many of you may) that the use of these options should be our choice -- not the car maker's choice.

• Choosing a different destination (POI, Address, Phone, etc.)
  
• Choosing an album to play by selecting it directly, rather than having to page through them one-by-one
  
• Dialing a phone number when using the telephone
  
• Other features "locked out" during forward motion
  

What I want, and what I believe we all expect, is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

I agree. It is wonderful to know that Lexus is concerned about our well being. But we are Adults and are capable of making adult/responsible decisions. Almost anything we utilize today comes with a precauction, even the toilet seat, razor blades, or sipping straws -- It is up to us to use everything responsibly.

[scottmcc]

To override NAV on LS 430 go to your menu then volume..

press the upper left corner then lower left corner then upper left corner then lower left corner.. (You will see no buttons there, they are hidden.)

A service menu will appear... Press and hold the override button for 3 seconds or until you here a beep. Press Back and go to your destination menu. You can now change POI or whatever while on the move.

You can do this procedure while on the move as well.

However, you still cannot use the Bluetooth phone book or Dial while driving..

I have just ordered the Ultimate LOCKPICK1 from CoastalTech which overrides everything on the LS430 except for NAV map disk ver 6.1..

Sorry, but it looks like they still have no support for the LS460.

But it will be worth every penny of the $200 dollar it costs.

here is a video on how to do this

Here is also a Hack for the LS460 but it is for other things.

[Doug Bates]

I have been arguing with Lexus about this since I bought my car. They finally relented and I received a rebate on the cost of the Nav system. I will be posting a complete report on the (currently under construction) website LexusNavRebate.com after the first of the year so you all can try to get one too. The purpose will be to get rebates, new software, etc. Think of it as a Class action lawsuit without the lawyers.

In the meantime, I am still annoyed every time I use the Nav system. I am thinking about a Nuvi.

[SW03ES]

Honestly...you do get used to it.

[lexus trekker16]

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the Lexus LS460 Navigation lock-out and what we, as a group, can do to persuade Lexus that we, the folks who both purchase and use these cars, should be the ones to determine when we use our navigation system and how.

Recently, on a trip in Florida, I needed to re-route around some traffic. I knew where I wanted to go (a POI I knew). My wife, in the passenger's seat, was perfectly able to use the navigation system, were it not for the fact that it was locked out while we were in motion. I had to pull into a parking lot to make the selection. The traffic was so bad that getting back in took over 10 minutes (Orlando, go figure). The navigation system that was supposed to save me time ended up being more hindrance than help.

This has become not only an annoyance, but a danger. Stopping on the highway, which is what some folks might do, or pulling off at an exit or on a side road just to choose another destination -- especially for the passenger to do the selection -- is both ludicrous and insulting.

I have more stories, but I'm sure you share most of them.

These features are "locked out" while the car is in motion, and I believe (as I think many of you may) that the use of these options should be our choice -- not the car maker's choice.

• Choosing a different destination (POI, Address, Phone, etc.)
  
• Choosing an album to play by selecting it directly, rather than having to page through them one-by-one
  
• Dialing a phone number when using the telephone
  
• Other features "locked out" during forward motion
  

What I want, and what I believe we all expect, is for Lexus to make these features available to us at no additional charge (haven't we already spent enough on our car purchase?) in the form of an updated software release for the car, a software "hack" or an after-market "modification" that is approved by Lexus. I don't want to tell them how to do it, I just want to persuade them to do it.

So, let's start the discussion. If you are willing to become part of the solution, please post.

I would love to see a class action against Lexus not only to give drivers the options you suggest but to fix all of the inaccuracies that the Lexus navigation system has. That ^%*%()'g system has sent my wife and I to the wrong place or on some ridiculously long routes so many times, I feel like throwing a brick through the screen. And I do know how to operate the system, as I have Lexus GX470 which is almost always accurate. As a result of the LS 460's poor directions, we cannot trust the nav system and can no longer depend on it.

The LX460 nav system is wrong so many times that I have named it the CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS SYSTEM. It does not know where it is going, it does not know how to get there, and when it arrives it does not know where it is. It was a complete waste of money. It has been to the dealer three times and Lexus says that it operates as designed. The problem is that the design is basically in error. And Lexus is going to hard line it by denying any errors, since it is too cheap to fix the problem. Guess what my next car will not be.

Don't any of you have similar problems?