Ls Navigation -- Call For A Class Action?

[SW03ES]

I don't blame you lol, sorry for hijacking your thread ;)

Sure, I'll sign the petition but I know its not going to do any good, and I'm perfectly happy if it doesn't.

Its not that I don't agree with you, its just that I don't think its that big an annoyance.

I'm flattered that you think my voice will carry weight, but its not going to make a difference. Their decision to lock out these functions came from exhaustive consultation with attorneys I'm sure, and with sales figures continuing to climb and the system getting excellent reviews these lockouts aren't going anywhere. In fact, with all of the litigation out there about cell phones and lawsuits, I'd be surprised if they didn't start locking MORE functions out.

[LS460L]

I don't blame you lol, sorry for hijacking your thread ;)

Sure, I'll sign the petition but I know its not going to do any good, and I'm perfectly happy if it doesn't.

Its not that I don't agree with you, its just that I don't think its that big an annoyance.

I'm flattered that you think my voice will carry weight, but its not going to make a difference. Their decision to lock out these functions came from exhaustive consultation with attorneys I'm sure, and with sales figures continuing to climb and the system getting excellent reviews these lockouts aren't going anywhere. In fact, with all of the litigation out there about cell phones and lawsuits, I'd be surprised if they didn't start locking MORE functions out.

Not at all, I appreciate your response. I'll add you to the list (it's growing nicely)!

[JAM123]

Its not that I don't agree with you, its just that I don't think its that big an annoyance.

I'm flattered that you think my voice will carry weight, but its not going to make a difference. Their decision to lock out these functions came from exhaustive consultation with attorneys I'm sure, and with sales figures continuing to climb and the system getting excellent reviews these lockouts aren't going anywhere. In fact, with all of the litigation out there about cell phones and lawsuits, I'd be surprised if they didn't start locking MORE functions out.

Not at all, I appreciate your response. I'll add you to the list (it's growing nicely)!

I spent over three frustrating hours loading and managing/editing my albums on the HDD. I felt that most of the items could have been done by my wife while we are on the road traveling long distances. Also, I feel that Lexus lawyers have gone overboard with the lock out mantra........ we are smart enough consumers to recognize and buy a good product but so dumb that we don't possess cognative skills to know when an activity might be an distractions.?????

Sign me up for the class action.

[LS460L]

I spent over three frustrating hours loading and managing/editing my albums on the HDD. I felt that most of the items could have been done by my wife while we are on the road traveling long distances. Also, I feel that Lexus lawyers have gone overboard with the lock out mantra........ we are smart enough consumers to recognize and buy a good product but so dumb that we don't possess cognitive skills to know when an activity might be an distractions.?????

Sign me up for the class action.

Absolutely! JAM123 has hit the nail on the head! Here's another experience: I was driving, and my wife asked me what I was doing on the 5th of next month. Well, I've got a calendar on my phone, but there's one on the LS -- but, you've got it, it's locked out! It shows you the current month with the current day highlighted, but you can't advance to the next month unless you're stopped!

Hey, folks, JAM123's got it. Who else?

[SW03ES]

Why on earth would you need to access a calendar on the nav screen while you're driving. Thats horribly unsafe. Hand your wife your phone and have her look it up while you safely and responsibly drive the car.

This is precisely why the lockouts exist...

[LS460L]

Why on earth would you need to access a calendar on the nav screen while you're driving. Thats horribly unsafe. Hand your wife your phone and have her look it up while you safely and responsibly drive the car.

This is precisely why the lockouts exist...

Hi, Steve. Thanks for your comment.

Have you seen the calendar on the new LS? It's fantastic. It's also quite useful, again, for the passenger to use (were it that the lockouts didn't exist). Another situation was where my wife and I were driving in Florida; and it was the end of the month. We were trying to figure out the next week's activites in our somewhat idle conversation while I drove. She was the one manning the Navigation controls (what little she could do, thank you Father Lexus).

On the 430, we simply overrode the lock-out and could have paged forward and talked about the next month's activities.

On the 460, we couldn't. Petty? Maybe. But, it's my feeling that I should be given the prerogative to choose and that prerogative has been taken away from me by Lexus when they think I shouldn't use it.

Safety? Interesting point you make. Now, contrast the nice, large display on the LS with looking at a cell phone for any reason at all -- its small screen and tiny buttons; talk about unsafe! I used to have nightmares before hands-free. Of course, nobody's telling the guy next to me on my drive home today -- as he swerved out of his lane trying to punch the buttons on his Blackberry.

So, Steve, who's going to take that guy's Blackberry away from him? Shouldn't the same rules apply?

Look, everyone: Steve's point is clear -- we shouldn't be messing with anything while we are driving that can otherwise distract from keeping our eyes on the road. Safety is absolutely number one in my book. However, and I keep saying this, it's not up to the car maker to decide for me how I'll use the equipment on the car. That's my responsibility.

So, Steve, thanks for your comment. I'd like to count you as one who agrees with me that it should be our choice about the lockouts, while being responsible and safe. I'd like to hear you're in agreement about that much, at least.

To others reading this post: Whether you agree with Steve, me or somewhere in between, chime in. This is an open forum, and I want to hear what everyone has to say.

[SW03ES]

Of course, I have a calendar in mine too. Regardless of how fantastic the calendar may be, if it counted down the days left in your life, its irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless to use an on screen calendar on the dashboard of a car when driving. It is also irresponsible, dangerous, and reckless to use the screen of a blackberry when driving, and in many states its illegal. I simply don't understand the desire to do something thats so inherantly unsafe.

I'd say my position is that I don't really care about the lockouts. I would like to see usability for programming destinations when the SRS sensor in the passenger seat detects a passenger but to be honest, I'm actually quite comforted about the fact that people can't look up calendar dates and program destinations into these things when driving down the road. Keeps all of us a little more safe.

For the record, MY car has no override. The override was introduced on the 04 model and lasted until the system was upgraded again in 07. Somehow I've happily driven the car with heavy navigation screen use for 4 years and 90k miles. I don't think its a big deal. I don't see how I can be any clearer about my position.

[LS460L]

I don't think its a big deal. I don't see how I can be any clearer about my position.

Great, Steve. Thanks for your comment. Glad you don't mess with your phone while you are driving. I stopped doing that myself the day I tried it -- not a great idea!

Now that we've heard from Steve, how about anyone else?

The real question here is: who should decide whether we can dial the phone (with that nice, large, easy-to-use, Lexus phone keypad) or change destinations or switch to another album (by name, not just up or down) while we are driving? The car maker? Or should we be responsible adults and decide for ourselves?

Steve's had his say, who else?

[SW03ES]

My car does not have the phone system, but our Prius does so i can't comment on that, I can only comment on the nav system and info system lockouts.

[07LS460]

Perhaps the lockout should automatically be disabled when the pass side air bag is active indicating that there is a passenger in the front seat therefore allowing use of the nav features that are normally locked while the vehicle is moving.

[SW03ES]

I think that would be a great idea, I can simply guess the reason why that is not so is how easy it is to make that sensor believe there is a passenger there that is heavy enough to trip that sensor even when there's not, and the dangers associated with the seat being full of unsecured ballast in an accident etc.

[LS460L]

Perhaps the lockout should automatically be disabled when the pass side air bag is active indicating that there is a passenger in the front seat therefore allowing use of the nav features that are normally locked while the vehicle is moving.

Thanks, 07LS460! That's what this forum is all about: how should we persuade Lexus? Any system can be defeated, in some fashion or another. I'm sure somebody has already figured out which wires to cut or re-route or whatever. Could I disable these lockouts by putting something into the passenger's seat? Why yes, yes I could. I'm thinking I'd put my wife in the passenger's seat. And, occasionally, I'll ask her to do what I did on our last trip -- find a restaurant near where we were driving. Too much to ask? I think not.

All right, folks, let's keep talking about this. Steve's had a lot to say. A few others have also had some good thoughts.

Who else?

[RFeldes]

Oh well, here I go, Having driven and currently driving the Mercedes S550 and learning "all" options are up to the discretion of the driver. I find Lexus plays middle of the road..so to speak..I think that most persons able to afford vehicles of that stature have come to a point in their lives where they have shown resonsibility and are capable and have matured enough in their day to day driving responsiblities to afford their passengers access..long subject...to be able to use purchased features as they see fit. In other words Lexus..Baby Boomers want to use what we are given, as time is short..lol..See how stupid this argument is?? Simple..Lexus treats us as younger adults and Mercedes looks to a class above, older, wiser,more refined, wealthy, statured and stable....Simply stated. Lexus needs to "grow up" if they want a share of that elite market they seek and have stepped into with the the 460l and 600. I don't see it happening with their current mindset.

[Rx330driver]

hey steve, since were using your name so much now...you say that it is easy to just put something heavy on the passenger seat...

but, in my old RX300, yes, i could just lift my behind from the seat and it would stop blinking the passenger light. In my new RX330, its a different story, no matter how i stand up, it still says passenger is there. i think there is more than one sensor, like on the back as well, etc. Its weird.

perhaps they should use the PCS's driver monitoring system and use it for the passenger monitoring system...lol

as for which position i take...i dont really car. Yes its annoying, but i really only use the nav when im somewhere that im not familiar with, behinds AC controls. Its not that hard to just pull over to the side of the road. but...my car does have the overide, which is annoying in itself. Anyways, its perfectly okay for this thread and the many that have popped up to be here, but were arguing/discussing for nothing. Lexus will not change its ways. it is a stubborn brand.

[heliski]

Count me in, I would love full access.

[needone]

Count me in, I would love full access.

This is my first posting, so I hope it ends up in the thread regarding the lockocut of NAV and Audio functions in the LS460 series. First and foremost, I will happily endorse efforts to remove the lockouts that plague this car. I have follow the thread on this issue and am impressed with the rational and logical positions taken by those who want simple choice, and I notice a tendency of the Management responses to sound an awful lot like the Lexus talking points.

If I follow the logic of those who are so concerned with my/our safety, how about removing the mirrors on the back of the sunvisor so we won't get run into by someone doing their mascara (sp?). We should also disable the bluetooth whenever the vehicle is in gear so the cell phone addicts don't kill someone. How about a governor? I think we're limited electronically to 130 MPH and certainly noone needs to drive over 70, do you think? Come to think of it, the Mark Levinson system is downright hypnotic in it's induced cerebral euphoria- lock that baby out too, before I end up hitting someone in my mesmerized state.

The point is, my LS460L replaced my 2002 LS 430 that had 100K trouble free miles on it and was my wife's, or dog's and my delight. The 460 is going to be just as good, or better, but it won't be because some middle management do gooder had anything to do with it. The engineers and manufacturing people at Lexus must be a significant cut above the rest. My dealer is an absolute gem and I have to really feel sorry for him having to work with the Lexus middle. The marketing group, or whatever you wish to call them, know that this is the only car I'll drive and they must take great pleasure in irritating me with their arbitrary decisions on what I can and cannot do. How come I can open the trunk with the remote, but I can't close it with the remote? How come I can't lock the car with the remote if it is running? Why can't my wiife find a POI while we're driving? Why doesn't the remote we carry set the seat position? Why do the interior lights not shut off after x minutes when a door is left open? My 430 had a foolproof system, they went out when the battery was dead- maybe we have fixed this on the 460. The new car cost us $15K more than the 430, what happened to my radar cruise control? I got Chevrolet cruiise, must be safer. I think I want to stay allive more than Lexus does, so why don't they just build the cars and forget all of the social engineering?

The chances of getting the Social Protectors at Lexus to change any of their ways are about the same as my chances of throwing a rod in the 460 at 50K miles. It ain't going to happen. I think the only thing we can do is tell our story to the Powers polsters when they call, maybe we'll help the next guy.

[LS460L]

Count me in, I would love full access.

First and foremost, I will happily endorse efforts to remove the lockouts that plague this car. I have follow the thread on this issue and am impressed with the rational and logical positions taken by those who want simple choice, and I notice a tendency of the Management responses to sound an awful lot like the Lexus talking points.

Well-put, Heliski! I've tried to keep this thread on-topic, and I've tried to keep folks focused on the main issue: who should choose what we can use on the Navigation system, the car owner (this is my contention), or the car maker?

With respect to the Management responses, I can't comment other than to say that I think it's healthy for the management of this site to provide a sort-of "devil's advocacy" in some cases. And, if my argument can't survive their tests, perhaps it would be superfluous. However, the overall consensus, so far, is that folks are largely in agreement with my premise.

Some folks are, understandably, pessimistic about Lexus taking steps to alter this situation. But, I maintain that Lexus wants to satisfy their customers more than most (if not all) other car makers. That puts a lot of pressure on them. And, as we are eligible for updates from Lexus (Denso) on the Navigation software, my hope is that we'll be able to get an update as early as next year to remedy these issues -- EVEN if it comes with some sort of "waiver" for me to sign.

So, with that, who else has been quietly reading this thread who would like to chime in?

[Rx330driver]

lol a waiver? i guess they should include that in the purchasing contract. Anyways, do we really think that japanese guys half way around the world are reading this as we type it? that they are thinking themselves..."hmm those americans seem to really hate our nav systems, lets just cave?". Its not only a battle of giving people what they want, its also about losing face. If they cave in now, it means they were wrong, and im willing to guess that like most asian countries, the japanese hate to admit defeat.

with that said, it is annoying, but there is no point since there are only two sides of the argument. Its a giant hole that will never be filled.

[LS460L]

Anyways, do we really think that japanese guys half way around the world are reading this as we type it? that they are thinking themselves..."hmm those americans seem to really hate our nav systems, lets just cave?"

I have a couple of Lexus resources who provided some background, and it might help you to know the same.

It seems that several of the "lock-outs" were applied for the American market only (remember, I'm speaking about the LS460; I can't speak about any other model). The Navigation system is freely open in Japan on the LS460. However, my contacts did not know if similar lock-outs were applied for the European market.

And, yes, Lexus representatives in the American market are actively watching this site (several threads, not just this one).

Of course, the question remains for you, Rx330driver: cynicism aside, are you with or against? Be careful here, because this is basically about who should be allowed to choose: the car owner (you) or the car maker (Lexus).

[Rx330driver]

lol...oh god they're watching us. Cant make any negative comments, might get something written down on my record.

anyways, im against it very much. Just today i used my nav, and the first thing i did at the stoplight was use the overide "hack" that still works and then went out to typing out where i wanted to go. However, with that said, i dont think anything we say can change this feature in the future. Thats all im saying.

[LS460L]

lol...oh god they're watching us. Cant make any negative comments, might get something written down on my record.

anyways, im against it very much. Just today i used my nav, and the first thing i did at the stoplight was use the overide "hack" that still works and then went out to typing out where i wanted to go. However, with that said, i dont think anything we say can change this feature in the future. Thats all im saying.

Well, at least we can count you in the growing list of folks opposed to the lockouts (lucky for you, you still have a version of the Nav system on your car that has disclosed overrides)!

Okay, Rx330driver's on-board.

Who else?

[needone]

lol...oh god they're watching us. Cant make any negative comments, might get something written down on my record.

anyways, im against it very much. Just today i used my nav, and the first thing i did at the stoplight was use the overide "hack" that still works and then went out to typing out where i wanted to go. However, with that said, i dont think anything we say can change this feature in the future. Thats all im saying.

Well, at least we can count you in the growing list of folks opposed to the lockouts (lucky for you, you still have a version of the Nav system on your car that has disclosed overrides)!

Okay, Rx330driver's on-board.

Who else?

Well, LS460L, it would seem to me that there are a lot of current LS430 owners who have become accustomed to being able to take charge of their destiny. Perhaps a piosting on the LS430 forum would give prospective buyers of 460s reason to add their comments and objections. I seriouly doubt if I would have changed my mind on the car, but I sure would have made the dealer acutely aware of my displeasure with the arbitrary lockouts and deletions of things I had enjoyed on my 430.

[SW03ES]

I notice a tendency of the Management responses to sound an awful lot like the Lexus talking points.

Since I'm the only manager that has chimed in about this issue I'll assume this is directed at me.

I am first and foremost a MEMBER of this site. My opinions are offered as a member and Lexus owner. I do not own the site, I simply volunteer to help design and enfore the posting guidelines of the site and keep the forums neat and orderly. Thats all, I don't work for Lexus, don't get paid by Lexus (or anybody for this by the way), I don't even own a share of Toyota stock. As for the site, Lexus has no ownership interest in the site either and has no input on anything we do here, this site is owned by one private individual.

Just because I don't see what the big deal is about the lockout doesn't mean I'm a product shill.

[LS460L]

Well, LS460L, it would seem to me that there are a lot of current LS430 owners who have become accustomed to being able to take charge of their destiny. Perhaps a piosting on the LS430 forum would give prospective buyers of 460s reason to add their comments and objections. I seriouly doubt if I would have changed my mind on the car, but I sure would have made the dealer acutely aware of my displeasure with the arbitrary lockouts and deletions of things I had enjoyed on my 430.

Hello, needone! You're right! We have a 430 as well (wife's car). I customarily unlock the navigation when we're in her car. BTW: fantastic car, the 430 (my wife won't let me drive it!).

I'll think about how to position a thread that points folks over here.

[LS460L]

I am first and foremost a MEMBER of this site. My opinions are offered as a member and Lexus owner.

...

Just because I don't see what the big deal is about the lockout doesn't mean I'm a product shill.

I can only speak for myself, but I started this thread to get differing opinions. Steve, you've been vocal, and it's perfectly all right for folks to say they like the lock-outs (for whatever reason). All I ask folks to do is stick to the topic, try to keep to the facts, and bring honest opinions here. I believe your posts are honest and heartfelt.

I'll bet there are other folks out there who have been silently reading this thread. Doesn't matter to me with whom you agree; but we'll never know if you don't weigh in.

So, to the silent readers: whatsayyou?