02-06 Transmission hesitation problems

[mikek753]

Exactly. Lexus should allow US ES owners to choose the Canadian Transmission settings if they wish. Lexus could no longer claim the vehicle as ULEV, but that only matters for new vehicle sales. Once I own the car, I can modify it within fairly broad limits.

The question would be then - How we can do those modifications?

Can I do it myself? or at Lexus? or else where?

in California a car has to be LEV, where ULEV is extra step - IMHO

But I don't want take a hit / risk when I want to merge to higher going lane as that expense - do you?

[SW03ES]

Unless I'm mistaken (and thats more than possible) replacing the ECU with one from a Canadian ES would do the trick.

The question would be what would that cost, and would it void the warranty (a lot, and yes).

[wwest]

I've been being an idiot!

I've been trying to figure out for weeks how Toyota determines that the accelerator pedal is in the fully released, idle, position. I can fully understand how they determine the initial position when the battery is first connected, but how...

Then this morning it hit me.

You must depress the brake pedal, FIRMLY, in order to shift out of parking gear. If I were the engineer writing the firmware that is exactly when I would most expect the accelerator pedal to be fully released.

So, if, drive cycle after drive cycle, the shift from park into a drive range occurs with the gas pedal depressed, even ever so slightly, the engine/transaxle ECU might re-learn, likely adjusting the parameter gradually, the sensor output voltage for the accelerator pedal idle position.

The next part you will not believe.

I NEVER use my left foot for braking..

WRONG!

My RX is always parked "nose in" into the garage.

This morning I used my left foot to brake while I started the RX and shifted into reverse, and continued to brake with my left foot as I backed out of the garage.

I know I do not use my left foot for braking in the normal sense and I have no idea when or how I developed the habit of doing it in reverse, or maybe only while backing out of the garage.

So, if you have DBW be sure you do not have any pressure on the accelerator pedal as you firmly depress the brake in order to shift into gear. And be mindful of floor mats having inadvertently slipped forward and now laying on the accelerator pedal.

Kudoes to user777, to whom I should have listened more closely and who was much closer to this idea than I was.

[mikek753]

Unless I'm mistaken (and thats more than possible) replacing the ECU with one from a Canadian ES would do the trick.

The question would be what would that cost, and would it void the warranty (a lot, and yes).

ECU or just parameters in software in the ECU?

or new Canadian firmware has to be just loaded in the ECU?

if that load can be done via OBD2 then current (old) fw can be stored before loading Canadian fw - kinda the same way as ppl do fm upgrades for motherboards, dvd burners, video cards, etc. - IMO

[steviej]

Unless I'm mistaken (and thats more than possible) replacing the ECU with one from a Canadian ES would do the trick.

The question would be what would that cost, and would it void the warranty (a lot, and yes).

That was an option suggested back on page 2 or so of this thread. When I looked into it, the cost of the Canadian ECU was over $1750 USD in 2003. The other problem was at the time the car was under warranty and Lexus would have voided the at least the emissions warranty should I have opted for this. The car would now not be or may not be ULEV compliant and they would not stand behind any unknown failures in any emissions testing that I had to have performed nor would they be responsibe to cover any failed part under warranty. I had taken this as maybe they haven't tried it and didn't know what would happen if you simply did a swap.

[jragosta]

Unless I'm mistaken (and thats more than possible) replacing the ECU with one from a Canadian ES would do the trick.

The question would be what would that cost, and would it void the warranty (a lot, and yes).

That was an option suggested back on page 2 or so of this thread. When I looked into it, the cost of the Canadian ECU was over $1750 USD in 2003. The other problem was at the time the car was under warranty and Lexus would have voided the at least the emissions warranty should I have opted for this. The car would now not be or may not be ULEV compliant and they would not stand behind any unknown failures in any emissions testing that I had to have performed nor would they be responsibe to cover any failed part under warranty. I had taken this as maybe they haven't tried it and didn't know what would happen if you simply did a swap.

Of course, it wouldn't be necessary to change the ECU if Lexus would let US dealers install the programing from the Canadian ECU into the US vehicles.

[wwest]

I have always, religiously ( or so I thought) used my right foot for both braking and gas.

Then last week I realized that the one time the firmware designers could likely rely on the gas pedal being at idle, and thereby reliably "learn" the gas pedal idle position, was during the sequence of firmly applying the brake in order to have the electric solenoid release the shifter so it can be moved out of park.

So the issue is NOT what foot you use for braking otherwise, but specific to the exact time you are shifting out of park.

After realizing the above I started paying more attention to my own driving methods. Low and behold it turned out that I had a habit of using my left foot on the brake each time I shifted out of park. For some reason I had developed the habit of applying the brake with my left foot in this instance circumstance.

What was I doing with my right foot...?

In the case of preparing to back out of my garage, and as it turns out any time I am backing up, my right foot is always on the accelerator pedal with my left foot applying or poised over the brake.

Probably lucky that I don't have DBW.

[fat cat]

Can we be sure that Toyota/Lexus actually considers the delay/hesitation a mistake?

All I got from the service manager at Lexus of Bellevue about a week ago was his grousing about people being to cheap to use premium fuel. Talk about being totally out of touch with your customer base!

Personally I think Toyota is, has been, concentrating on the "standard" delay/hesitation that arises, justifiably, from the new automatic transmission control techniques recommended by Sierra Research back in 99 and not realizing that a significant level, a few, drivers are for some as yet unknown reason expereincing an extended delay/hesitation symptom.

Under the new techniques, ASL (Agressive Shift Logic) in particular, these transaxles will be dramatically quicker to upshift on full or even partial, slight, throttle "lift". Obviously that will result in the transaxle being in the wrong gear ratio when/if the driver subsequenctly decides to accelerate. The only advantage I can see for the use of premium fuel is that the downshift selection will/can be more decisive due to less likelihood that the downshift will result in engine knock/ping.

If electonic accelerator pedal assembly's output is between 0.1 and 0.8 volts the pedal is assumed to be fully released and the engine will be commanded to idle. "Usable" range is designated in the 2004 Lexus RX330 shop/repair manuals to be between 0.8 volts and 5 volts. Yet the test procedure in the shop manual indicates that the allowable output voltage of the sensor with the pedal fully released can be as high as 1.3 volts and still be acceptable.

Does not compute!

I find that when I turned the heated seat on or when I turned on the defogger, the accerleration was not as smooth as when they were off. Would turning them on affect the voltage of the sensor?

[ImranS]

I'm in Canada guys and the transmission problem is definately there! I slow down and it seems to jerk forward on occasion like I have some sort of pressure on the accelerator pedal. It clunks into gear sometimes (definately not smoothly) and it has the stupid lag problem although I've learned to live with it. The thing that bugs me the most is when it seems to get lost and then clunk into gear :chairshot:

[reillye]

I have had the upgrade performed and drivinf the vehicle about 4,000 miles, this is reaction:

Initial driving response much crisper shifts

I then started experiencing very hard shifts and brought it back the next day and was told that i would have to drive the vehicle at least 1000 miles before the new chip programing adjusted to my driving style.

After 2,000 miles the very hard *BLEEP*s between 1st and second and then to third have smoothed out .

overall shifts are much crisper ;) although the trany still has a massive hessitation when entering a highway with a 16 wheeler rapidily approaching I mash the gas peddle and it stays in either 1st or 2nd way way too long it appears that the revs are way up between 5-6 thousand rpm without the upshift to a higher gear.

I have gotten around this by releasing the gas pedel and stomping again but that takes precious seconds in a very un comfortable situation since that 16 wheeler is now on your bumper and is rightly ticked at me.

If I drive it like a manual, the response is better but that takes too long. So be careful; if you have the upgrade done expect masively sharper shifts in the lower gears. Unless you are a very experienced driver, I would not reccomend the upgrade.

I am glad I have had the upgrade done; my milage has gone up 2-3 miles per gallon and the shifts have been crisper with the exception of the very rapid acceleration from 0-60 mph.

Gene

[ESMags]

I have mixed feelings about the upgrade. I've only had my car a little over a month, and when I was looking for a used ES I picked this particular one out because it didn't have the hesitation that I felt in several others - some severely so. Mine's an '02 with only 24,000 miles on it. I debated on the ECU update, and when I took the car to the dealer's for a rotor issue I asked about the ECU upgrade and what my car had previously had done. At first the service person pretended he didn't know what I was talking about :chairshot: , but when I asked if any of the ECU updates were done he admitted that it had the 03 but not the 03R. The only thing that bothered me was that the car was kind of slow in accelerating in the lower gears, slight hesitation but not that major jerking I experienced in some. And I actually had a really surprisingly quick response in passing a car on a two lane road, faster than any of my previous cars, which had me thinking that the ES isn't lacking in power. Anyway, the service guy informed me that I could get the update under warranty. Since my warranty expires this summer I decided to go for it. My first experiences were such abrupt shifting and lurching that it scared me, and I actually turned around to go back to the dealer to complain about them ruining my car. I did know that it was irreversible, and also that it took time for it to "learn", so I decided to drive home and give the update more milage time. At first I hated the fact that it made the motor noisier, as the shifting was occuring in the 3000 to 4000 rpm range instead of the 2000 to 3000 rpms previously. My "purring kitten" motor sounded more like a growling tiger. I've put a few miles on it since (about 600), and it is adjusting some, but I do think I was happier with the car shifting in the lower rpm range. Pickup is okay, but I'm not one to floor the pedal looking for intant acceleration (drove too many older cars with failing transmissions :( ). I'm light on the accelerater and let the car respond, figuring with the throttle system it's going to react more like a manual transmission. On occasion I do accelerate quickly from a stop at a light, just to kind of test my acceleration in comparison to the cars next to me, and to my surprise very often the ES is quicker :o. I don't expect this car to perform like a sports car, or even to accelerate as quickly as something with dual exhaust, or I would've bought something else. But I would say that there is a difference in the amount of hesitation found between different vehicles, even in those of the same year. I don't know that a standard "fix" is going to cure the varying degrees of the problem.

[aminklein]

My 330 has only 960 mi., and I'd do anything to get rid of it. The transmission performance is the worst of any car that I've owned. The hesitation and lurching of the car at low speeds is intolerable. Lexus doesn't want to hear about the problem, and has offered no solution. I've complained to NHTSB and the MA Attorney General with no resolution. They suggested the highest octane gas; aggressive driving; rebooting the transmission computer; and have even denied knowledge of the problem. The local dealer's response is also unsatisfactory. I hope that there is a national interest in a Class Action Suit.

[aminklein]

My 2005 ES 330 is the worst performing transmission that I've ever owned. The constant hesitation and lurching at low speeds is intolerable. I've complained to Lexus, my local dealer and every state and govenment agency that I can find.

After spending a great deal of money on this car, I only want to get rid of it. The transmission problem with this model, going back to 2002 is one of the most common complaints about the car, but Lexus has chosen to do nothing about it. Apparently, only government action of a large Class Action Suit will achieve any results.

[amf1932]

My 2005 ES 330 is the worst performing transmission that I've ever owned. The constant hesitation and lurching at low speeds is intolerable. I've complained to Lexus, my local dealer and every state and govenment agency that I can find.

After spending a great deal of money on this car, I only want to get rid of it. The transmission problem with this model, going back to 2002 is one of the most common complaints about the car, but Lexus has chosen to do nothing about it. Apparently, only government action of a large Class Action Suit will achieve any results.

2002 to 2006 ES's seem to have this problem. In fact I started bitching about it from the day I drove my 2003 ES out of the dealers. After all the moaning and groaning through the years nothing really helped. I thought that the latest ECM flash corrected the problem, but I was wrong! I decided to trade in this dog and it was the happiest thing I've ever done. My new ES350 is a constant joy to drive with none of the hesitating, lagging or whatever. It's a shame that I had to live with this crap for my 3 years of ownership, and traded it in.

Once again I look forward to driving a car.

[timothy]

I have a 04 es with 27000 miles, trans seems to shift better now with more miles. Car is only driven a couple times a week, for now, seems to have some jerking at until warmed up. Great car.

[alank22181]

I have a 04 es with 27000 miles, trans seems to shift better now with more miles. Car is only driven a couple times a week, for now, seems to have some jerking at until warmed up. Great car.

My 2004 ES 330, has lots of hesitation shifting out of 3rd, until warmed up. Ive got about 25,000 miles on it, runs smooth except for feeling "stuck" in gear.

Its been behaving better since having the re-write done to the car software, but still is annoying for a car in this price range. DEaler has been excellent (Pohanka Lexus in Chantilly, VA). I also have improved gas mileage, squeeking by 30mpg a few times while on trips.

Alan in Vienna

[wwest]

Just recently started noticing complaints of engine/transaxle(??) delay/hesitation symptom on Lexus GS300 forum threads, seemingly, at this moment, only the 2006 AWD version. Up until now I have thought this problem only occurred on FWD based Toyota/Lexus vehicles.

At first I thought the AWD GS300 might be transaxle based but it is not.

[SW03ES]

Like we've told you time and time again, there are complaints about this issue on the RWD Lexus models dating back to 1998. My father had a 98 LS400, same throttle hesitation my ES has. The dealer was familiar with the complaint in 1998 too.

[monarch]

Just recently started noticing complaints of engine/transaxle(??) delay/hesitation symptom on Lexus GS300 forum threads, seemingly, at this moment, only the 2006 AWD version. Up until now I have thought this problem only occurred on FWD based Toyota/Lexus vehicles. At first I thought the AWD GS300 might be transaxle based but it is not.

Or could we say the engine/transaxle(??) delay/hesitation symptom is most noticable and annoying in the 1MZ-FE and 3MZ-FE V6, 5-speed automatic, electronic DBW throttle, equipped FWD & AWD Toyota / Lexus vehicles? Or do you think the symptom in the AWD versions is less noticable and annoying?

I don't believe Toyota ever used the 1MZ-FE / 3MZ-FE V6, 5-speed automatic, DBW combination in any of its rear wheel drive vehicles.

[SW03ES]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say mine is any more noticable on the ES than it was on his 98 LS or his 04 LS. I think there are just a lot more ES's and RX's and thats why it looks like there are more problems. One negative for the ES in this department is that it doesn't have an ECT PWR mode to the transmission, in the LS this reduces the lag considerably.

[Miles]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say mine is any more noticable on the ES than it was on his 98 LS or his 04 LS. I think there are just a lot more ES's and RX's and thats why it looks like there are more problems. One negative for the ES in this department is that it doesn't have an ECT PWR mode to the transmission, in the LS this reduces the lag considerably.

The part that amazes me is this issue took so long for Toyota to address. Our dealer told us this was their number one complaint. This hesitation problem hasn't soured repeat business?

[amf1932]

The part that amazes me is this issue took so long for Toyota to address. Our dealer told us this was their number one complaint. This hesitation problem hasn't soured repeat business?

I started this thread in May 2003, and yes, it has definitely soured repeat business to some degree. It seems that from 2002 to 2006 these cars basically used to the same type of transmission and no type of reprogramming could correct these problems completely.

After 3 years of ownership I finally traded in my '03 ES300 with only 16k miles for a '07 ES350. This new car has a completely redesigned transmission that really works fantastically. I once again look forward to driving my car. :)

[texagun]

I started this thread in May 2003, and yes, it has definitely soured repeat business to some degree. It seems that from 2002 to 2006 these cars basically used to the same type of transmission and no type of reprogramming could correct these problems completely.

After 3 years of ownership I finally traded in my '03 ES300 with only 16k miles for a '07 ES350. This new car has a completely redesigned transmission that really works fantastically. I once again look forward to driving my car. :)

Thanks for starting this thread and bringing this defect to the attention of those of us driving Lexus models. It has been very informative. Hopefully your experience with your 2007 model with the new transmission will be much more enjoyable.

[SW03ES]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say mine is any more noticable on the ES than it was on his 98 LS or his 04 LS. I think there are just a lot more ES's and RX's and thats why it looks like there are more problems. One negative for the ES in this department is that it doesn't have an ECT PWR mode to the transmission, in the LS this reduces the lag considerably.

The part that amazes me is this issue took so long for Toyota to address. Our dealer told us this was their number one complaint. This hesitation problem hasn't soured repeat business?

I don't see how its soured repeat business, the ES has sold strongly every year and the launch of the ES350 has been very strong.

[amf1932]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say mine is any more noticable on the ES than it was on his 98 LS or his 04 LS. I think there are just a lot more ES's and RX's and thats why it looks like there are more problems. One negative for the ES in this department is that it doesn't have an ECT PWR mode to the transmission, in the LS this reduces the lag considerably.

The part that amazes me is this issue took so long for Toyota to address. Our dealer told us this was their number one complaint. This hesitation problem hasn't soured repeat business?

I don't see how its soured repeat business, the ES has sold strongly every year and the launch of the ES350 has been very strong.

As I said in an above post, "it has definitely soured repeat business to some degree". The "degree" might be small, but it's definitley there. I personally know about 20 people that were turned off buying an '02 to '06 ES because of this tranny situation. Now, multiply that figure around the world where ES's are sold and I'm sure it had some impact on sales. Sure, I know they sell strongly.......but is it possible that sales could have been even stronger? I think so. ;)