SW03ES Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 LOL I love the disclaimer at the bottom of the poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG LEX Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 SWO3ES.. your right, someone can love cars and have not a clue about driving one.. but thats really rare dont you think? .. anyways Im not gonna start another debate I can clearly see you have your hands full with Todd! :P :P I just hope that I wont get into any accidents of any type with my LS.. :magic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Less rare than you'd think lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acf Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 95-97 LS400 bumpers are some of the worst in the industry and there could be thousands of dollars is damages you can't even see. Please explain. I recently bought a '97 with some compression scratches on the bumper. Don't see any other physical damage though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMF Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 there is no other damage, i looked behind the bumper and there is a huge metal bar connected to the frame and it takes more then small escort on 15 mph to brake it:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Let's clarify this again. I'm not saying ALL women can't drive. I'm saying from my experiences MOST women can't drive. I'm sure SW03ES's wife can drive better than most men? I don't know, I've never met her. But I know she doesn't account for the majority of her gender if she really is a good driver. Hence, MOST women can't drive. My girlfriend is a average driver at best. It seems like every time I talk to her on the phone while she's driving somebody just cut her off, somebody just about hit her, somebody just turned into her lane erratic, etc... She's so emotional when talking to me on the phone while driving it's crazy. It's too much, I don't think I want to talk to her while she's driving anymore? I don't want to her to get hurt. There is no possible way she could be in that many "possible accidents"? At least I don't think so? I know she drives a convertible sportscar that is very low to the ground but it is not invisible. I would say 50% of driving is being defensive by watching and anticipating cars around you. I am very defensive because I drive a motorcycle as well. I don't want to be clipped on the freeway and go sliding at 75mph on my !Removed!. I can't even count how many times a stupid minivan has tried to merge into me on the freeway. When I see a minivan (on my bike) I usually accelerate past it so it can't turn into me. BTW, she got hit about 2 months ago by her work at lunch. Who hit her? You guessed it, ANOTHER WOMAN! From my experiences MOST women can't drive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 She's a good driver, I don't know about better than most men, but then again I have not meant enough men in my life to make that judgement. I honestly dont think about it that way, it never would have occured to me to compare her driving to that of a man. I'm just content to say she's a good driver. I'd thought that the debate was over, we both have our views on the subject and we're obviously not going to change each other's minds ;) VMF/acf, You wont be able to inspect the bumper for damage without removing the bumper cover. Yes there's a "big bar" back there but its mounted to the frame with impact absorbing mounts. These mounts are easily broken, in fact they're designed to break to save damage to the vehicles superstructure. The bumpers on the 95-97 LS are poor because for some reason they don't do a good job of protecting the rest of the vehicle from damage. The job of a 5MPH bumper is to restrain the vehicle from sustaining damage to anything but the bumper in that type of accident. Evidence, VMF's taillight should have never been broken. The bumper was redesigned in 1998 and the problem went away. Check out www.nhtsa.gov you can actually see film of the bumper tests. The 97 LS400 was backed into a poll at 5 MPH and the impact was bad enough to dent the trunk lid and destroy its latch. It failed the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I don't know, I've never met her. But I know she doesn't account for the majority of her gender if she really is a good driver. I will say one more thing, you just said EXACTLY what I've been trying to say. My fiance isn't representative of the entire female gender as a whole, and niether are the women that you've met, you haven't met nearly enough to have a representative sample. You've never met the "majority of her gender" so your statement is meaningless, and your opinion is groundless. You can believe what you want to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I don't know, I've never met her. But I know she doesn't account for the majority of her gender if she really is a good driver. I will say one more thing, you just said EXACTLY what I've been trying to say. My fiance isn't representative of the entire female gender as a whole, and niether are the women that you've met, you haven't met nearly enough to have a representative sample. You've never met the "majority of her gender" so your statement is meaningless, and your opinion is groundless. You can believe what you want to believe. So that makes your opinion valid and not mine? Remember, we're expressing opinions here. There's no need to be defensive. My personal experiences and a few others here state that MOST women cannot drive. Do I have bad luck that only women hit me or am I experiencing a fluke? I would assume that the law of averages would of at least reaped 1 male at fault accident in the 4 that I have been involved in if males caused the equal amount of accidents? I suppose I would have to personally be involved in millions of accidents to substantiate my assessment and satisfy you? I don't believe there is a publicly available database (a side from confidential commercial insurance claim records and police accident reports) that tracks this? If there was, I think one of us would of stumbled onto it over the past few days? But then again, if there was, I think that data would be attacked and slaughtered by an equal rights organization and considered "sexist"? Chew on that... Thank God that we live in America where we can intelligently express our opinions based on personal experiences and collaboration without being censored. Sometimes I feel those days are numbered? It's sad... Our local poll shows a few stats in this community... "Who Hit Your Car In The Past?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 No, niether one of our opinions is really valid because niether of us have had enough experiences to say either way. You can say "Most women I know can't drive" but saying "most women on earth can't drive" is arrogant, chauvanist and rude. You have no proof of that whatsoever, and If I were a woman I would be extremely offended by that comment, and it would make me think you were some sort of male chauvanist prick. Now bear in mind, I realize that you aren't a male chauvanist prick at all, we've chatted for quite a while on this site and I've never had any reason to think that you're a bad guy, quite the opposite I enjoy chatting with you. I'm just trying to make you realize how your argument is coming across. Not favorable at all. As for the poll, that too isn't an accurate assessment, just in another thread I read the feelings of two members that were the same as mine, and their opinions aren't expressed in the poll because they didn't care enough to vote. Self report assessments are very unreliable. Do I have bad luck that only women hit me or am I experiencing a fluke? I would assume that the law of averages would of at least reaped 1 male at fault accident in the 4 that I have been involved in if males caused the equal amount of accidents? Not at all actually. Your 4 accidents are so statistically insignificant when compared to all accidents as a whole, it doesn't prove anything either way who hit you. The law of averages doesn't even begin to come into play. In all honesty, being hit 4 times is somewhat of a anomaly. How long have you been driving? I suppose I would have to personally be involved in thousands of accidents to substantiate my assessment and satisfy you? Still wouldn't be statistically significant, but better. The fact is, the personal experiences of one man, or even of every member of this board cannot be attributed to a statistical truth. There's just far too many people out there. Thats what starts a prejudice, the experiences of one man that he arrogantly attrinutes to the experiences of everyone. One man gets mugged by a black man, he thinks that all white men have been mugged by only black men, therefore all black men are muggers. Now he's a racist. One man gets treated badly by a cop, so all cops must be abusive, now he's a cop hater. Its not meant to be an insult, its human (and especially American) arrogance. We all do it, we all assume that our own experiences are the norm, because of course who would live differently than us? Most people are almost entirely incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes. As someone trained in Psychology I just find it fascinating. If it weren't for the money and the schooling, I'd do it for a living in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 The experiences of this man are a perfect example: By the way, I have been driving for longer than most of the guys on this board have been alive, and the near misses that have nearly killed me over the years have all been caused by males, with one exception. Interesting too that mining companies and others running huge machines prefer female drivers because they tend not to abuse the equipment ( watch what some guys do when they miss a shift - curse the trans and mash the gears anyways) and cost them less in maintenance as a result. And road rage, one of the worst driving offences possible, is committed almost entirely by males. Now, you're saying "dont you think eventually the law of averages would catch up if men caused accidents at the same rate" What about this guy? If women cause MORE accidents, then he's REALLY cheating the law of averages huh? The answer is, his experiences are just as valid as yours, even moreso depending on the relationship in legnths of time as drivers. Niether one of the experiences can be attributed to the ACTUALITY of the situation because of their statistical insignificance. According to his experience, men cause upwards of 90% of the accidents. And we know thats not true, right? See, there are just so many people living in this country, and on this planet. They all live in different places, around different demographics. Some have families, some dont, some drive all day, some dont. They all live in areas with vastly different traffic patterns. Your experiences, his experiences, my experiences can not even BEGIN to be the statistical truth? To say that yours are is to say that you've experienced every type of driving and living and situation out there. Is that what you're saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 No, niether one of our opinions is really valid because niether of us have had enough experiences to say either way. You can say "Most women I know can't drive" but saying "most women on earth can't drive" is arrogant, chauvanist and rude. You have no proof of that whatsoever, and If I were a woman I would be extremely offended by that comment, and it would make me think you were some sort of male chauvanist prick. Now bear in mind, I realize that you aren't a male chauvanist prick at all, we've chatted for quite a while on this site and I've never had any reason to think that you're a bad guy, quite the opposite I enjoy chatting with you. I'm just trying to make you realize how your argument is coming across. Not favorable at all. As for the poll, that too isn't an accurate assessment, just in another thread I read the feelings of two members that were the same as mine, and their opinions aren't expressed in the poll because they didn't care enough to vote. Self report assessments are very unreliable. Do I have bad luck that only women hit me or am I experiencing a fluke? I would assume that the law of averages would of at least reaped 1 male at fault accident in the 4 that I have been involved in if males caused the equal amount of accidents? Not at all actually. Your 4 accidents are so statistically insignificant when compared to all accidents as a whole, it doesn't prove anything either way who hit you. The law of averages doesn't even begin to come into play. In all honesty, being hit 4 times is somewhat of a anomaly. How long have you been driving? I suppose I would have to personally be involved in thousands of accidents to substantiate my assessment and satisfy you? Still wouldn't be statistically significant, but better. The fact is, the personal experiences of one man, or even of every member of this board cannot be attributed to a statistical truth. There's just far too many people out there. Thats what starts a prejudice, the experiences of one man that he arrogantly attrinutes to the experiences of everyone. One man gets mugged by a black man, he thinks that all white men have been mugged by only black men, therefore all black men are muggers. Now he's a racist. One man gets treated badly by a cop, so all cops must be abusive, now he's a cop hater. Its not meant to be an insult, its human (and especially American) arrogance. We all do it, we all assume that our own experiences are the norm, because of course who would live differently than us? Most people are almost entirely incapable of putting themselves in someone else's shoes. As someone trained in Psychology I just find it fascinating. If it weren't for the money and the schooling, I'd do it for a living in a heartbeat. I really believe this may be SW03ES's wife replying as of late? I dunno? I'm probably wrong? It doesn't matter... Ok, chauvinist? No, not at all by any sense. If you met my girlfriend she would tell you that she is basically in control of many things in out relationship. It's cool, she's smart and she is great with money. I leave most of the major decision making up to her. I trust her because she is my soul mate and best friend. We take each others advice to heart and she keeps me in line... She's tough.. Arrogant? Maybe? Jeez, did you forget? I'm a freakin' salesman! I have to be confident to be good at what I do. Sometimes confidence is mistaken for arrogance. BIG DIFFERENCE. I'm one of the top wholesale reps in my company on the west coast. I am paid to develop and maintain professional business relationship that profit the company. I do well in my profession... That's why I have so much time to type here. I make my own schedule. I have a company car and a expense account. No stinkin' office desk to imprison me.... Rude? No, no and no. I am one of the nicest people that you would ever meet. I am a loyal friend and I am trustworthy. I value friendships and dignity. My girlfriend is both a friend and a inspiration to me. I learn from her daily (except driving a car). I don't do waffles...If you've been good friends with me for years, you would probably like me because I stand for what I believe in. Like yourself. <_< I'm consistent... From my experiences, MOST women can't drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Maybe it's no secret? Ok, here's an article from Rush Magazine> http://www.rushmagazine.com/displayarticle.php?id=440 Women Can't Drive You've heard the complaints about women drivers, either from your friends, your family, or your own mouth. Don't pretend that you don't at least silently curse the woman who nearly just killed you, because she was paying more attention to getting her eyeliner on straight, than staying in her lane... but here's what a psychic I am: I know that you do this for the elderly, teens, and basically every ethnicity on the road. Actually, I know plenty of people that will curse even their own peers. Are they all worthy of contempt, or is it true that women just can't drive? Yes, we know that most people are lousy drivers. There are very few great drivers on the roads out there, especially if you're driving in Los Angeles. What is the criteria for being a good driver? This is something that's going to be very debateable, unless it's cut down to the lean: a good driver is one who doesn't get in accidents, doesn't cause them, and is able to get out of a dangerous situation when they find themselves in one. You could say that the skills involved in all of those are much like those needed to win races, or generally drive like a maniac, but a martial arts grandmaster isn't great because he beats people up, he's great because he's got the ability, but practices restraint. One thing is for sure, a good driver pays attention to the road, and is able to keep track of traffic around him or her. People who don't like to drive don't do this very well. That said, the average woman is still a level below the average man, for three important reasons, which are as follows. Click above (top) to read the whole article... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Women Can't Drive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lost motorist ends up on airport runway (This is an actual report) TAMPA (Reuters) - A Florida driver made one wrong turn too many and ended up on an airport runway this weekend, forcing the delay of at least two flights, airport officials said Tuesday. "She was on a runway staring at a 737," Scott Loper, assistant director of operations at Tampa International Airport, said, though he noted the driver, Luz Arce, had not come within 1,000 feet of any aircraft. Airport police said that Arce drove through a closed airport gate marked with "Do Not Enter" signs at about 7:10 a.m. EST Sunday, ending up on the runway. Airport firefighters saw her drive through and jumped into a truck to pursue her, but could not reach her before she forced the delay of at least two flights. "She was driving pretty quick," Loper said. Arce was taken into custody within a few minutes and charged with driving while intoxicated and trespassing. She told police she had got lost while driving home from a party after fighting with her boyfriend. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do her emotions have to be expressed from behind the wheel of her car which caused 2 flights to be delayed? A car is not an extension of your emotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 No, I do my own replying. If my fiance cares to reply, she can get her own account. Why do you assume she must be replying, because I feel that this is an example of men treating women unfairly? Because I'm a man? First off I said I dont believe you are a chauvanist, I just said you're coming across that way. I was very careful to make sure you realized that. Magazine articles aren't unbiased information. I want DATA. I want data that says this many accidents were caused by men in 2001, this many by women. There were this many licenced male drivers in 2001, there were this many licenced female. Anyhting other than that, from a legitimate credible source doesn't prove anything. Magazine articles are written as entertainment, their factual truth is maginal at best. That article from Rush Magazine is total bullbleep. For one, over 50% of nascar and other motorsport fans are women. Women aren't mechanically inclined? What? Women are just as inherintly mechanically inclined as men. Just because there are more male mechanics doesn't mean men are inherintly better at it. There are more female teachers out there, are women better teachers? No way, some of my favorite teachers as a kid were guys. Women aren't as physically aggressive? WHAT? That makes them SAFER drivers! Road Rage is safe? I think not. Regardless of what this stupid article says I took several defensive and race driving courses, and any driving instructor will tell you aggression gets you killed, calm rationality saves the day. That article is nothing but another example of entertainment for men who are intimidated by women. Wonder why it has no facts or data to support itself? Because its an editorial, it is an opinion, and it is meaningless. You have to like car racing to drive a car well? Laughably rediculous. As for the other article? means nothing I can find you 10 newspaper articles where a man did something stupid and caused a major accident. How about the guy who plowed through the farmers market in CA? A man. I dont get your inability to concede to the fact that you dont know enough women or male drivers to make an accurate assessment of the driving skills of the population as a whole, because you don't. There were tens of millions of accidents last year alone. You've been in 4 your whole life and that makes you an expert? HAHA. You're really that blind and arrogant? You actually think that you know enough to make an assessment that even the NHTSA won't touch and they have all the data? Wow you should go work for them. My father's a salesman, top in his field, I'm a salesman and a business owner, there's a difference between confidence and arrogance. Anyways you're not trying to sell me anything now anyways ;) I'm not even arguing the point anymore, you can't argue with someone who'se mind isn't open to other possibilities. You've made up your mind the way most Americans do, with little to no information, so there's no point in continuing. My mind is open to the fact that possibly women cause more accidents, I dont have any evidence to refute that, but there's no evidence out there to prove it either. You however think you know all there is to know because of your experience with .0000000000000001% of the female population has showed you how they all are. 4 people man, how many women on earth? 20 Billion? You're not open to the possibility that you're wrong, so this is just all a waste of time for both os us. No point in continuing this. No hard feelings? I'd hate to see a stupid debate like this roll over and change how we post to each other. Everyone has their feelings and opinions I suppose, I'm willing to put this behind me if you are. You said if I'd known you for a long time I'd like ya, well I like ya anyways. Dont have to agree with someone to like and respect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 We both must have open minds, I agree. I'm going by my own personal expereinces which are real life happennings on my part. Your opinion still doesn't overcome the fact that I was hit 4 times by the same human gender. Let's look at the possibilities. If it's a 50% chance of something happenning, the law of averages will usually play out quickly. If it's greater than 50/50 (like 55/45) then the law of averages is in favor of the higher percentage (55). Have you ever gambled at a casino? The casino always has the advantage. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in business. Simple law of averages. I have a problem with what has happnned to me in respect to averages. I'm not even counting the # of times I've had to avoid a female driver that has turned into my lane while applying makeup in the morning on 405. I live in Seattle where the traffic is bad and the roads are not built to handle the volume of people that are living up here. That's a whole new thread. I know there are more male drivers on the road (your stats show this as well) so if there is a 50/50 chance of being hit by either gender, the % would go up with possible male at fault accidents due to more males on the road. So let's adjust it as so (conservative). 55% males on the road to 45% females. I have a 10% more of a chance of being hit by a male opposed to a female assuming males and females cause an equal amount of at fault accidents. So by my personal expereinces I am over 325% out of the norm with the assumption that males and females cause at fault accidents at the same rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 So by my personal expereinces I am over 325% out of the norm with the assumption that males and females cause at fault accidents at the same rate. What about the other guy who'se the opposite, he's really outside the norm is females cause more accidents? The answer is, niether of you are outside the norm because the population is so huge, your experiences (the sample size) aren't attributable to the population. 4 wrecks isn't a lot. Alls well that ends well I suppose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 From my experiences, MOST women can't drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 You mentioned that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewzdoc Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 I was hit by a little old man. I was pulling up to a stop light (it was red) and before I could come to a stop he darted between cars from my right and hit my right front fender. The accident was found to be 100% his fault....duh he hit me perpendicularly. His first comment was “Oh no not a Lexus” in that quivery little old man voice. I felt bad for him. He was coming out of a bank parking lot and just didn’t see me between the 3 lanes of traffic that he had to cross to hit me. $2400 damage for a dint about 6 in X 5 in! :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddLS400 Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Yikes, sorry to hear that. Do you remember that incident last month down in LA with that older man and the public market downtown? He killed a few people with his car plus a few small children. That was sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Sorry to hear about it, at least no one was hurt! Hey Todd, do you know what they ever found as the cause of that? Did he fall asleep, or was he on any meds or anything like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMF Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 he mixed the pedals up. thats what i heard and read in the news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8R Proof Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 We have male and female members on this board, singling out all female drivers and saying "men are better hands down" just plain isn't fair. Both men and women can drive equally well, there is no difference in abilities between the sexes that would account for a disparity in the ability to drive. Thats just a commonly held fallacy. In respect for our female members, I'd appreciate it if we could keep the "woman driver bashing" to a level of zero ;) THANK YOU!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG LEX Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 SW03ES: I just wanted to say that TODDS article on RUSH MAGAZINE proved what I was saying with the hot wheels and all, men are more into cars so they know more of what the car can handle and so so on.. and yikes I wonder what the pilots were thinking when they saw a car on the runway... :snoooorrrtttt: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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