1992 Es300

[Anovice]

Brought the car into the local mechanic today to look at the ABS. The problem seems intermittent, but mostly the ABS light stays on. However, sometimes I start the car and the ABS light does not come on until I break for the light down the street from my house. Also, a few months ago the tires were rotated and the light stayed off for a few days.

That said, he trouble shot the problem and said code 32 and 35 came up. 32 is front left wheel speed sensor signal malfunction and 35 is open circuit in front left or rear right rear speed sensor circuit.

With an ohm meter he checked the sensors. He said he was getting a signal. Suspecting a wire problem, he roughly ran a new wire from the left front wheel sensor to the module. That seemed to take care of code 32. However, regarding code 35, he said the module is not reading the rear right wheel sensor, thus concluding I need a new module (the wire to the module is good).

I spoke with Park Place Lexus and they felt since the problem is intermittent (but mostly the ABS light stays on and always once is goes on it stays on until I shut off the car. Them maybe is come back on when I start the car, but always comes back on when I break for the light down the street from my house), they did not feel the problem is the Control Module. They felt more likely the problem would be a bad sensor.

So, I spent $100 today on a few hours of labor and I do not feel I am any farther. If I buy the Control Module, I am out another $250 plus more labor. If the Control Module was the problem, why didn't a code come up indicating that?

With the above in mind, can someone please take an educated guess as to the problem(s). Is it time to take it into Lexus or the local Toyota shop? Since the breaks are fine and only the ABS is the problem, should I ignore it?

[Toysrme]

Replace the wheel speed sensor.

The control module is fine. I've not seen a Toyota ECU of any kind fail (Without ther ebeing outstanding owner cause. i.e. they played with it) in all my time on the internet, working in a shop. Nor have ever talked to any Toyota mechanic I've ever had that convorsation with. First time for everything...

The Independant mechanic so far is doing right... Intermittant singla. Wiring is dead, or the sensor has been bumped. check/replace wiring & its no longer a problem. He fixed that.

Code 35:

Vehicle speed sensor signal is not input for about 1

sec. while the left front and right rear vehicle speed

sensor signals are being checked when the IG

switch is turned ON.

Go look at pages BR-64, and skip up to BR-84 in the Brake pdf in the FSM.

Checking the resistance of the sensor doesn't mean the seansor is good. There is more to a sensor than it's resistance. ;) That just means the coil is good. That doesn't mean it's not broken, misaligned, or the pick-up wheel has been damaged.

And quit wanting to waste some much damned money. An ABS ecu is worth like $30 bucks, and sits right behind the glovebox. If you wanna replace it. Pull the glovebox off & replace it for $30, not $250 *BLEEP* son LoL!

If you ignore it, you have no ABS function on the car.

[Anovice]

Toysrme, thanks much for your post.

As I know nothing about cars, I would like to make certain I am understanding you. I will get a new wheel sensor. However, it does not sound like you are suggesting I get one for the front left wheel (drivers side), figuring the mechanic can fix code 32 with a new wire. Is this correct? Yes, code 32 went out when he ran a new wire from the left front wheel sensor to the module, but I do not understand what made the existing wire bad and wonder if the problem is in fact the front left sensor. If the mechanic was correct that it was the wire, now he will have to spend the time (and me the money) to run this wire neetly from the wheel, I guess through the fire wall, to the module.

If so, we are only talking about code 35..."open circuit in front left or rear right speed sensor circuit". So, are you suggesting I pick up a wheel speed sensor for the right rear wheel?

I see that the front speed sensors cost $108.17 each at Park Place Lexus and $157.04 for the rears. I assume that is about as good a price as I can get.

While I gather a moot point, I do not know what you mean by "an ABS ecu is worth like $30 bucks". I see on line at Park Place Lexus that the "Control Module" cost $247.29, a "Skid Control Relay cost $61.46", a "Modulator Valve $1,257.65 and the price for the "Speed Sensors" as above. I think those are all the parts related to the Anti-Lock Breaks and I see nothing in the area of $30.

Again, thanks so much and I guess the only question is for which wheel or wheels do I get the speed sensor?

[Toysrme]

I do not understand what made the existing wire bad and wonder if the problem is in fact the front left sensor. If the mechanic was correct that it was the wire, now he will have to spend the time (and me the money) to run this wire neetly from the wheel, I guess through the fire wall, to the module.

Not really sure what to tell you. The wire is pretty much exposed to the weather, and to mechanics during wheel/tire/suspension/axle maintenace on most cars because of it's location. If the wire get's old, it can just get black wire rot (Where the copper deteriorates) and it may only take a bump to kill it off.

It doesn't happen to like every car, but you do see it alot so... It's just one of those things.

I see that the front speed sensors cost $108.17 each at Park Place Lexus and $157.04 for the rears. I assume that is about as good a price as I can get.

I'm not sure, what do those things sell for normally? $100-150? Anybody? I'd give a Toyota dealer, and some parts stores a call tho. Lexus dealers are notorious for charging insane money for parts.

While I gather a moot point, I do not know what you mean by "an ABS ecu is worth like $30 bucks". I see on line at Park Place Lexus that the "Control Module" cost $247.29, a "Skid Control Relay cost $61.46", a "Modulator Valve $1,257.65 and the price for the "Speed Sensors" as above. I think those are all the parts related to the Anti-Lock Breaks and I see nothing in the area of $30.

Na dude LoL! Used, those things are literally worth about $30 bucks. I ebayed one yesterday on either a 92-96 ES, or a 92-96 Camry (Same thing) and it was like $29.00 not including shipping.

The ABS modulator valve is this huge !Removed! electric pump & valve assembly that sits in the front of the car under the windshild washer tank. Trust me, you haven't broken that!

Again, thanks so much and I guess the only question is for which wheel or wheels do I get the speed sensor?

As much as I hate it. I have no idea without being there. You'd have to look at the ABS sensor outputs on something that can show you the wave form (oscilloscope) while you spin the wheel. That can be a pain in the !Removed!. Most likely just either get lucky replacing one, or replace them both. :\

Try the front one, it's cheaper & would have been exposed to damage from mechanics more often.

All it takes is a good hard bump to knock one out of alignment so it doesn't pick-up the magnets correctly. Check the alignment of them. Just because the sensor is good & tests ok with an ohm meter, doesn't mean it's not simply out of alignment.

[Anovice]

A few last thoughts and questions and I gather I am on my own.

1. I went to ebay, but could not find the ABS ecu that you mentioned for about $30. The print out I have from the Lexus dealer calls the part a "control module". Would it be possible for you to post it? For $30 plus shipping, maybe it makes sense to buy it and have my mechanic change it. Less expensive than to go back multiple times. Would the one for a Camry work? If so, I too cannot find it on ebay. I see from my print out from Park Place Lexus that control module indicates 92-94, but you mentioned 92-96?

2. From Park Place Lexus, the two front wheel sensors are $108.17 each and the two rears are $157.04 each. This seems to indicate that the two fronts are the same as well as the two rears. Do you agree? If so, I gather I can but one of each. Park Place Lexus allows returns so long as the part is not electronic (ie. control module). Are sensors an electrical part? Again, it indicates the year to be 92-94. Do you think these would be available on ebay?

3. In your first post you mentioned "go look at pages BR-64, and skip up to BR-84 in the Brake pdf in the FSM". What do all these letters stand for and where could I find this document?

Hopefully I can order the sensor(s) tomorrow from Park Place Lexus (if not available on ebay) as well as the control module from ebay. My left front brake hose is leaking and this MUST be changed immediately ($50.12 from Pake Place Lexus. I checked with Drivewire, but they do not carry this part). Not fun owning an older car, specially when I am car challenged!

[Toysrme]

The '93 factory service manual is sticked at the top of the forum. The letters are page numbers in the brake section. (Control + shift + f in adobe is advanced find.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-CAMR...sspagenameZWD1V

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1992-96-TOY...sspagenameZWD1V

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-LEXUS-...sspagenameZWD1V

Feel free to spend your money, but I'm telling you. I've never seen any Toyota ECU fail. It's not a ford, or chevy. I think it's a waste of money. (And all you need to take the glovebox out is a 10mm socket. CHange the thing yourself LoL! The glove box pulls out easy. You pull the carpet off to expose 4-5 nuts, take the plastic kick tray off that way connected to the carpet, take 4-5 the nuts off & the glovebox pulls out. Now you're staring at the engine/transmission ECU, the ABS ECU, the powersteering fan ECU, the climate control ECU, and the blower motor for the cooling/heating system. :) Easy as pie.)

Sucks about the brake hose. They're not complicated to change. You get pretty dirty doing it tho hahahahahaha

[tckcumming]

Brought the car into the local mechanic today to look at the ABS. The problem seems intermittent, but mostly the ABS light stays on. However, sometimes I start the car and the ABS light does not come on until I break for the light down the street from my house. Also, a few months ago the tires were rotated and the light stayed off for a few days.

I had the same symptoms with my '93 ES300 a few years ago. I got many different opinions from different mechanics at the time, most of them invoving $$$ for repair. I learned to live with the glowing ABS light and drove the car for a year or more with no ABS. No problem doing this as long as you know that you DON'T have ABS and drive accordingly.

Anyway, I had my right front wheel off in my driveway one day (don't remember why), I noticed something I hadn't seen before. The wire that connects the wheel speed sensor to the module is held in place by a little clamp in the wheel well. I noticed a bit of electrical tape poking out from the clamp. It seemed odd - I couldn't believe that the car left the Toyota factory in Japan with electrical tape wrapped around an ABS wire. So I bent the clamp open and pulled the wire away from it... the wire came apart in my hands. I took the tape off and stripped the wire back a bit and it was obvious that it had been damaged previously and not repaired correctly. I figure that somebody at some time (it wasn't me - no, really it wasn't!) cut or burned through the wire, then just twisted it back together and wrapped tape around it. :chairshot: The crappy repair wasn't visible because it was hidden by the clamp. None of the various mechanics that had checked the car had noticed it either. Over time the wire just started to come apart... no ABS. I spliced a couple of pieces on wire into the original, soldered and shrink-wrapped it and tucked it back up where it belonged. Fixed!! It's been working ever since.

The moral of my (long-winded) story? It's probably something simple, a broken wire or sensor that's been knocked out of place a little. Easy to do when working around the wheels/suspension, but tough to troubleshoot. I just got lucky.

Why don't you just drive it as-is for a while. The brakes work fine, just no ABS. Have a really close look at all the wires leading to the wheel sensors and investigate anything that looks even a little "dodgy". If wires are OK its probably a wheel sensor. I'd bet that there's nothing wrong with the control module.

Just my opinion.

tck...

[SKperformance]

ABS issues are pretty common with the 92-96 ES . Not because of a defect but when the wheel bearing get worn out they make the sensor separate further which makes the magnetic hall sensor not see the CV joint turn which causes and error.

Get your wheel bearings checked for excessive play. Only problem is the old sensor is probably good but to replace your hub it needs to be pressed out which destroys the sensor. So you would need a new sensor and hub to fix the problem.

[Anovice]

Update...

Well, it appears Toysrme was correct in both regards. I took the car into the local Toyota dealership for evaluation. They said the problem is not the ECU and it is the front left speed sensor.

Now I need to make a decision and would appreciate more advice. The Toyota dealership wants $360 to replace the sensor. A lot of money for me and a lot of money for a problem that I could live without getting fixed. That said, having ABS would be nice, especially coming into the winter. My alternative is to buy the sensor on line for $108 and take it back to my local mechanic, who could not diagnose the problem in the first place.

A few questions. Should it be difficult for the local mechanic to change the front left wheel sensor? How long should it take him? Assuming any competent mechanic should be able to replace a wheel sensor and the book says it is under an hour and it costs me $60 labor, I can evaluate the risks of spending $360 vs. $168. Where in the FSM does it address clearing the codes (if I take it to the local mechanic and he does not know how to).

$200 is significant, however, if my assumptions are not correct and/or the Toyota dealership also did not diagnose the problem properly, then I am stuck with a $108 wheel sensor and a continual problem. The one benefit of the dealer is I can say "you said this was the problem and fix it!", but that piece of mind is costly.

Thanks much, Anovice

[anthonyiez]

w/o reading all the responses...

the sensor sounds bad. also checking an abs wheel speed sensor with ohm meter is spotty at best. a digital oscilloscope is the only way to go. that way can actually watch the sensor on the screen.

[mehullica]

Replace the l/f speed sensor and it will fix the problem. Code 35 pops up because the ecu uses signal from the l/f to match to the r/r, Code 35 is a bogus code as it has no reference signal to compare to. When you get a code 32 you will get a code 35. L/f and R/r work together as the R/f and L/r work together. Replace the l/f, that is your problem. Use a wire and jump pins Tc and E1 of the DLC connector, turn the key on and press the brake predel 8 times within 3 seconds to clear the code.

[Anovice]

WOW! Thanks much for the information, albeit over my head. Mehullica, sounds like you have followed all the posts and can clearly see I have no idea whatsoever what is going on.

That said, it sounds like you concur with the Toyota dealership, especially in light of my previous posts, ie code 32, code 35, etc. and in light of Toysrme's good advise. I will purchase the L/F speed sensor on line for $108 and bring it, along with your instructions, to him. I have found this local mechanic to be fine and certainly honest, but it also became clear to me that something is thowing him off with this ABS, including his feeling the problem was the ecu (you seemed to have answered why). Hopefully he will not need any more instructions than you have supplied. If you, or any one else feels there is more to add, please do so.

I assume these are your instructions to clear the codes "Use a wire and jump pins Tc and E1 of the DLC connector, turn the key on and press the brake predel 8 times within 3 seconds to clear the code." Is it possible and/or acceptable to disconnect the battery to clear the codes? I ask because this is how he tried to clear them last time.

By the way, do you have a estimate as to how much time it should take to change this speed sensor? Thanks so much. Anovice

[anthonyiez]

i should add...

i see a lot of these sensors go bad after people have axles repaired/replaced, because many people do not loosen the bolts holding the sensor wire and they end up breaking the wire.

[Anovice]

Well, I am on a roll. Looks like I am out another $180. The L/F wheel sensor cost me $120 on line and $60 for the local mechanic to install....and the ABS light is still on.

As mentioned, the Toyota dealership diagnosed the problem as needing the L/F speed sensor, which is on the "customer copy" of the invoice. They did not charge for the diagnosis (you get what you pay for), but since they wanted $360 to change the sensor, I went the route I did.

While I know nothing about cars, I watched the local mechanic do the repairs. He did change the sensor which took all of 15 minutes. He then took off the battery cable to clear code 35. As my luck would have it, the air bag light came on and would not go off. I think it was code 41. He cleared that through the ecu. He then proceeded to clear (or try to clear) code 35 through the ecu. He followed the instuctions from the manual posted on this forum as well Mehullica's, which are about the same. The one thing that I am not 100% certain of is if the ABS light ever when off. I am 100% certain it came back with code 35 and I personally watched it blink 3 times then 5 times.

I now have about $250 into it and still with the ABS light on. Are there any other suggestions? Please help! Thanks, Anovice.

[SKperformance]

The sensors don't go bad the bearings do. The sensor just needs to be changed to facilitate the new hub.

It pays to read all replies as i did mention it earlier.

[Anovice]

SKperformance, thanks for your post. I did read all the replies and as I recall, yours is the only one that mentioned a new hub. In the addition, the Toyota dealership said nothing about a new hub and only a L/F speed sensor. So as a novice, or anovice, would you not agree I was had reason(s) to believe the only problem was a bad speed sensor?

That said, IF I read your original post correctly, you are saying I need a new hub. Is this correct? If so, can I buy one on line from the likes of ebay? A junk yard? What year Toyota Camry hubs will be interchangable?

We KNOW the new sensor is good. If I get the hub changed, will this destroy the new sensor, as in your other post you said the sensor needs to be pressed out which will destoy it? Thanks, Anovice.

[SKperformance]

Since the sensor is new it should not be brittle and should be able to be pressed out still with ease compared to an old sensor. You should be able to buy just a new one and get away with it.

Your mechanic does not have a proper scanner or it would have read the abs sensor issue. It is then up to the tech to find out if it is a wiring ,sensor or hub issue that causes the fault.

I think they did it for free because they only hooked up the scanner to it to find a fault not investigate the issue by checking it thoroughly.

[Anovice]

Skperformance, it appears I am not communicating effectively. We agree that the local mechanic does not have the propper scanner. He does not have an oscilloscope and only used an ohm meter. He obtained a reading from each sensor and concluded all 4 sensors were good and felt the problem was the ecu. Others on this board said an ohm meter was not the propper way to tell as he could be getting a reading from the coil. Unfortunately he did charge me for his time.

Being there was no resolution and others on this board felt the problem was NOT to ecu, but a sensor (Toyrsme), I decided to go to the Toyota dealership. It was the dealership that did not charge me for the diagnosis, but concluded it WAS the L/F speed sensor. This is written on their no charge invoice and also on this paper is a $359 cost to REPLACE THE L/F SPEED SENSOR.

Based on TOYOTA'S WRITTEN diagnosis, I purchased the very same speed sensor and went back to my local mechanic who installed it. ABS light is still on.

So, I am confused when you say:

"Your mechanic does not have a proper scanner or it would have read the abs sensor issue. It is then up to the tech to find out if it is a wiring ,sensor or hub issue that causes the fault"

and

"I think they did it for free because they only hooked up the scanner to it to find a fault not investigate the issue by checking it thoroughly"

Would not a reasonable person conclude that the tech at Toyota dealership check it thoroughly since he determined that the problem was the L/F speed sensor (and not the wiring or hub) and the written quote is to replace the L/F speed sensor only? Is is possible you mean that if I would have paid the Toyota dealership for the diagnosis it would have been honest or accurate?

All I know now is the same as day one, which is code 35 (plus out about $250). For all I know, the problem could be in the R/R sensor. Hopefully I cleared up any mis-understanding. Are there any suggestions at this point? Thanks much, Anovice.

[mehullica]

After the sesnor is replaced you must still clear the code using the steps in my last post. The light will not go off on it's own.

[anthonyiez]

I think they did it for free because they only hooked up the scanner to it to find a fault not investigate the issue by checking it thoroughly.

sk,

this is the problem with diagnostics. people think we hook up this magic machine that tells us the problem. as you know, that is just the jumping off point.

it still amazes me how many people, professionals included, that change oxygen sensors because they pull a rich or a lean code.

[SKperformance]

I agree with the o2 bad repairs.

I understood what you meant but did not phrase it better for you to understand.

I mentioned mechanic and tech which are not one in the same. You had repairs at your mechanic who has a basic understanding of the car. The tech has a better one as he knows to use a scanner which will give a code for a definitive answer.

They gave you a free code scan at the dealer which most do . Only when labour is involved will they take off the wheel on a hoist to inspect the problem.

The abs sensor works by the cv joint having multiple teeth which pass by the sensor which is magnetic. It in turns lets the ecu know what rate of rpm that wheel is at. If for any reason it gives a false reading from a worn hub it throws a code. When a hub is worn the teeth get further away from the sensor and it does not pick up any more causing an error. Another possibility is that the mechanic did not insert the sensor all the way into the housing causing it to have excessive distance and not read it properly.

It is no magic machine as a scan tool does wonders when it is in the hands of a qualified technician. Personally anyone in the automotive repair business without one cuts too many corners to me. The $5000 price tag is nothing compared to the time it saves as well as money for the customer in not replacing properly working parts.

[anthonyiez]

$5K...i wish that's all mine cost <_<

[Anovice]

Mechullica, the mechanic try to clear the codes per the book. He first disconnected the battery, which is one of the protocols on a Nippondensio ABS system. Being that did not 'seem' to work, he followed your instructions of clearing the code that you posted on October 1. How do I know? Because I printed out your instructions, gave them to the mechanic and watched him try both proceedures to clear the code. What I don't know is if he was able to clear the code and it came back immediately OR he in fact never cleared the code to begin with. i would assume one of the two proceedures would have cleared the code 35. Could the problem with the R/R speed sensor?

Skperformance, I am at a loss what you mean by "they gave you a free code scan at the dealer which most do". I did not bring the car in for a "free code scan". I brought the car in for a diagnosis as to why the ABS light was on. The Totoya invoice says:

"Customer States: ABS light is on needs L/F speed sensor part needs to be ordered estimated PL+T $359.00 (2.0)"

No where on the no charge invoice does it say code 35 ("free code scan"). It could not be more clear and it is of no moment that the Toyoya dearlership did not charge me for the diagnosis, unless you are saying I would have received a different diagnosis if they would have charged me. "needs L/F speed sensor" is pretty definitive and other than in places such as Montreal and Quebec, the English language speaks for itself.

It does not seem like an option to go back to the same Toyota dealership. What would I say...here is your written diagnosis but because I wanted to save a few bucks I went elsewhere. I can't go back to my local mechanic as he has had enough of this problem. I gather I could try another Toyota dealership, but that would be throwing more money at the problem, unless I show them the Toyota diognosis. Do I have a reason to believe that the mechanic did not clear the codes after installation of the L/F speed sensor? I guess in theory it could be the L/F hub, but that would be contrary to Toyota's diagnosis. I also gather it is a possibility that the mechanic did not insert the sensor all the way. Since code 35 indicates L/F and R/R, could the problem be in the R/R?

I think you guys have been great in helping to determine the different possibilities of the cause. As you can tell, I am terribly frustrated, primarily because even if you knew 100% the cause, I would not know where to take the car at this point. It seems like my two options are back to the same dealership and be embarrassed or onto another Toyota dealer with the receipt I have.

Any last minute thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Anovice.

[lexlover1]

Replace the l/f speed sensor and it will fix the problem. Code 35 pops up because the ecu uses signal from the l/f to match to the r/r, Code 35 is a bogus code as it has no reference signal to compare to. When you get a code 32 you will get a code 35. L/f and R/r work together as the R/f and L/r work together. Replace the l/f, that is your problem. Use a wire and jump pins Tc and E1 of the DLC connector, turn the key on and press the brake predel 8 times within 3 seconds to clear the code.

Hello Mehullica could you please tell me where the DLC connector is located in a 93 es. I have replaced a wheel speed sensor and have to clear the code. thank you.