Why Is The Es350 So Expensive To Lease?

[Lexdiamonds]

I had called Lexus yesterday to ask for leases prices on the new ES, the guy told me 1900 out of pocket would be $560 a month, I remember 2 years ago, they offered me 1500 out of pocket for $450 a month. its crazy that these are lease prices, you can finance over 6 years with a few thousand down and pay almost $560 a month and at least you own it. Just looking for some feedback, thanks in advance.

[94LexusES]

thats ridiculous. for a new 05 altima sl i payed 0 down and only pay about 350 a month for 60 months and thats not a lease. They asked 27k, and no way was i going to pay what they asked for. i traded in an 2002 trailblazer. You gotta know what to do with these car salesmen, you make the price not them, a good method i found is just say no, and leave. and especially if you have spent more than an hour negotiating. they always chase you and give you the price you wanted. :)

[SW03ES]

Thats not that out of the ordinary...

You really can't compare leases across companies, Nissan for example offers special subsidized leases and Lexus does not, its like saying "Well I can get 0% from Ford, why do I have to get 6% from Lexus?". Its because Lexus doesn't have to subsidize the financing to sell the car.

2 Years ago you also were looking at a older model that you could do a significant off of MSRP deal on, you won't get any deal right now on an ES350, hence the issue.

If you want to shop the lease, check out www.leasecompare.com. $560 a month is a pretty good lease though, depending on whoich package the car has. The lease on my ES300 was around $500 a month and I got $4,000 off MSRP.

You gotta know what to do with these car salesmen, you make the price not them, a good method i found is just say no, and leave. and especially if you have spent more than an hour negotiating. they always chase you and give you the price you wanted.

This may be true for an Altima, but not a brand new model Lexus that has a 5 hour inventory and that has been out for a week. You're going to pay MSRP. If you say no and leave, they'll sell the car to someone else in 5 hours.

You might want to think about a leftover 06 ES if you want bigger savings, but thats still going to cost you on a lease because of the residual.

The issue is most people don't know how leasing works...

[94LexusES]

I never really believed in leases. Pay all that money and give it back? What are the advantages?

[mburnickas]

I never really believed in leases. Pay all that money and give it back? What are the advantages?

i agree. When I bought my new diesel truck it was 31K. the payments where 664.87 for 5 years (to buy). Paid in 2 years, I would just kick up the payments and buy. But if you do not like "older" cars and get a new one every few. Lease is for you.

[SW03ES]

Leasing can be very adventageous depending on your tax structure and your needs as far as a vehicle are concerned. Most people's distrust of leasing comes from the fact that they don't really understand it.

Leasing works for you if any of the below criteria apply to you:

1. You can write a vehicle off as a business expense. Unless you're purchasing an SUV over 6100lbs where you can depreciate the whole thing in the first year, you can write off more of a lease payment than a finance payment, as much as the entire payment in some cases. So, if you lease an LS430 for $1100 a month, thats a potential $13,200 deduction. Nothing to scoff at. For instance I will never buy another car for myself, because it wouldn't make any sense to do so unless I was going to keep it for a long time.

2. Having a vehicle that is never out of warranty is important to you. Especially attractive for cars like BMWs where scheduled maintenance is included.

3. You trade out of a car every 3 years anyways, and don't drive more than 15,000 miles per year. If you add up the costs of financing a car for 3 years and selling it vs just leasing for 3 years leasing is usually cheaper. If you can deduct a car for business, its a WHOLE LOT cheaper.

The problems wit leasing comes when people use it to be able to drive a car they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford, or lease cars with the intention of buying them at the end. Leasing is simply a financial management tool, much like interest-only or deferred interest (negative amortization) home loans which are also misunderstood. For the right consumer, they can be a very good fit.

[mburnickas]

I agree Sw. The only issues with a write off is that you will need to work your business petty well to see the “write off”. Another words for example, If someone signed up to sell Tuperware and sold $100 to write off a $13,000 bill is not going to cut it. Unless a corporation is paying for it, most will not see it I feel.

But they are pitfalls to leases and positive things; like anything in life. As you stated, the biggest things is that you like to get a new car every XX years and my feeling is people do not like to work on your car; then a lease is for you (great in fact). I state that since I believe (not 100%) you need to take the car to a dealer for service.

If not, a lease will screw you in the end same with a interest only home. Interest only home loans is great for people that think there house is going to be worth MORE in 2 to 5 years or can’t afford it any other way. Based on the current market, you are going to lose money since the market is falling or slowing; which it should.

My wife had a lease and got taken for a ride, so I told her to never lease a car again. Too many stipulations on leases (for what we do).

[SW03ES]

I agree Sw. The only issues with a write off is that you will need to work your business petty well to see the “write off”. Another words for example, If someone signed up to sell Tuperware and sold $100 to write off a $13,000 bill is not going to cut it. Unless a corporation is paying for it, most will not see it I feel.

Well no, but anyone who draws their income from business will be able to feel the benefit. Many, many, many Americans fall into this category, even people who don't own businesses themselves (salesmen etc)

If not, a lease will screw you in the end same with a interest only home. Interest only home loans is great for people that think there house is going to be worth MORE in 2 to 5 years or can’t afford it any other way. Based on the current market, you are going to lose money since the market is falling or slowing; which it should.

Interest only mortgages make sense for ANYONE looking to own their home for 10 years or less, which is actually most people. You pay off so little principal in the first 10 years its really not worth it, and the whole payment will be tax deductible.

My wife had a lease and got taken for a ride, so I told her to never lease a car again. Too many stipulations on leases (for what we do).

Another thing about leasing is that its complicated and you can easily be screwed over by terms you don't understand (money factors, capitalized cost, capitilized cost reduction etc). But, if you take the time to fully understand how leasing works beforehand, the savings can be tremendous.

[mburnickas]

Well no, but anyone who draws their income from business will be able to feel the benefit. Many, many, many Americans fall into this category, even people who don't own businesses themselves (salesmen etc)

That is my point. I know my parents own cars (for business, along with in-laws) and the benefits are not that great per say. To me, it is like the medical on income taxes (which most waste there time with unless you mean the min #).

Interest only mortgages make sense for ANYONE looking to own their home for 10 years or less, which is actually most people. You pay off so little principal in the first 10 years its really not worth it, and the whole payment will be tax deductible.

Hmm, so I should have taken an interest only mortgage to save money? Sure, I would saved money, monthly payment but own ZERO in XX years. To me, interest mortgages are like leases and renting. You have nothing to show for them. I though before like you posted, I would be here less then 10. Going on 6 years and my 15 year mortgage (now 9) is 100X better then an interest only. I own something……

From the people I know, many people HAVE to select Interest only mortgages to afford there homes, not by choice. They do this just to get in the door. I would take a mortgage over a interest only any day. Sure the payback in 5 years (if you take a 30 or 40 year mortgage) is small, but something is better then nothing. Plus you can take the interest off your taxes, just like interest only mortgages; but, you something to at least show for it at the end, unlike the other.

Another thing about leasing is that its complicated and you can easily be screwed over by terms you don't understand (money factors, capitalized cost, capitilized cost reduction etc). But, if you take the time to fully understand how leasing works beforehand, the savings can be tremendous.

It is a catch 22. If you drive nowhere, want to have a new car every few years and can deduct it from taxes with a lease (same with buying), a lease is for you. But for me, I do not want to worry about how many miles I drive a day/year so I do not get screwed, any dents etc that cost more $$$$, take it to stealership for service, then buying is far better. Then again when my car loan is done, I at least own the car. When you lease (when up), you have nothing to show if you do not buy. Walk in hand in the keys and all your payments are zero. Leasing is renting in my eyes. PLus I know leasing makes the dealers more $$$, not buyers.

To close, everything has pros/cons in life and you (the end user) has to do all the homework on what you can, really can "write off" and what benefits you (pay or otherwise).

:)

[SW03ES]

That is my point. I know my parents own cars (for business, along with in-laws) and the benefits are not that great per say. To me, it is like the medical on income taxes (which most waste there time with unless you mean the min #).

Well if your parents own cars for business and the tax benefits aren't that great they need to hire a better accountant, or investigate leasing. The benefits can be enormous, and for an expense you'd have anyways.

Hmm, so I should have taken an interest only mortgage to save money? Sure, I would saved money, monthly payment but own ZERO in XX years. To me, interest mortgages are like leases and renting. You have nothing to show for them. I though before like you posted, I would be here less then 10. Going on 6 years and my 15 year mortgage (now 9) is 100X better then an interest only. I own something……

But very few people can afford a 15 year mortgage, next to nobody actually. I bet you if you'd actually map out your financial picture over the last 6 years and project putting the money you spent on principal payments into a high yield investment (or even better, more real estate) you would have made SUBSTANTIALLY more money than you have made with your mortgage structured the way that it is.

As for owning nothing after 6 years of interest only payments, has your home not appreciated at all within the last 6 years? Where do you live?

From the people I know, many people HAVE to select Interest only mortgages to afford there homes, not by choice. They do this just to get in the door. I would take a mortgage over a interest only any day. Sure the payback in 5 years (if you take a 30 or 40 year mortgage) is small, but something is better then nothing. Plus you can take the interest off your taxes, just like interest only mortgages; but, you something to at least show for it at the end, unlike the other.

Remember, real estate is my business and I interact with WAY more people who make decisions about their home financing options than you do. While there certainly are people who purchase homes with interest only loans because its their only choice, there are plenty more people for whom it just makes more sense. In fact, I believe interest only loans are the smart choice for a majority of American homebuyers. They just get a lot of bad press from morons like Suze Orman who don't understand them. I broker real estate for a living and I have an interest only loan on my home.

Really, even if people do finance houses interest only because they can't afford to do otherwise it really doesn't matter. They still are better off than renting because of the tax advantages, and they're still building equity over 5-10 years because the property is appreciating. Also remember, you can make principal payments whenever you want, there are no prepayment penalties.

Hell, I have investor clients that use and love negative am loans. If you don't know, the mortgage payoff balance on a negative am mortgage GROWS every month because you only pay part of the interest. It works for them because they purchase properties with projected growth of 10-20% per year and it gives them cash neutral to cash positive investments monthly over a 5 year course.

It is a catch 22. If you drive nowhere, want to have a new car every few years and can deduct it from taxes with a lease (same with buying), a lease is for you. But for me, I do not want to worry about how many miles I drive a day/year so I do not get screwed, any dents etc that cost more $$$$, take it to stealership for service, then buying is far better.

Drive nowhere? 15,000 miles a year is nowhere? Thats more than the national average. Most people don't drive more than 15k per year. I drive 23,000 miles a year and leasing is still cheaper than buying for me when you factor in the tax advantages. That would not be the case if I were planning on keeping a car over 10 years, but I'm just never going to do that.

Then again when my car loan is done, I at least own the car. When you lease (when up), you have nothing to show if you do not buy. Walk in hand in the keys and all your payments are zero. Leasing is renting in my eyes.

But if you trade cars every 3-4 years anyways, you NEVER own a car outright anyways. Leasing is renting in your eyes because thats exactly what it is. However, you have nothing to show for financing a car or paying cash other than property whose value drops like a rock. I'd rather invest that money in things that MAKE ME MONEY, other than just watching the money I spent depreciate, depreciate, and depreciate. I like to watch my money GROW.

What people don't realize is that part of becoming wealthy is learning how to make your money work for you instead of you working for your money. Paying down principal on a property you're only going to own for 10 years isn't making your money work for you because you're not accomplishing anything, you can put that money to better use by investing it somewhere else. Everything is about investing. Buying a home is an investment, and you have to do it wisely if you want to reap the maximum reward from it. Put 20% down, finance it interest only with a 10/1 ARM and invest the rest of your money somewhere else.

I actually if I were you would refinance my property to an 80% loan to value (LTV) with a 10/1 ARM and use the proceeds to put 20% down on an investment property, finance that with an 80% LTV and a pay option arm (negative am) and get a renter in there and start leveraging that money to create some wealth. As it is now its not doing anything for you but giving you a "warm fuzzy".

I would never finance something with an amortizing loan unless I were in a declining market, wouldn't make any sense.

[mburnickas]

Again define “enormous befits” since a few K is a joke when buying large items. It is like whining about a dishwasher on a 500K home. Again you need a big income in to get your own money back. You can't just sell avon and think everything is a write off, which most do. There is more too it then bam, writing off a 30K plus car. It does not work that way.

I have a 15 year mortgage since I can afford it. I just stated what I am doing. I do not care that it is not the normal. It is an option that to me is the best on out there. I also thinking to doing a bi-weekly to drop it even more. I also upped my retirement (401K) to over 15% and my company MATCHES that. My wife’s money is all “play” money. Interset only is not worth my time…sorry.

You stated not many people own a home or keep in 10 years. I guess many of my co-workers are not the norm. Hell I am about a select few that even use a loan. Many pay cash for there home. If people want to hope the house goes up 50% and that is it, that is great. I would take my house 66% paid off house AND the valve increased. Again, more then an interest only here.

I house is a lot better investment then a high yield investment. My house has gone up 300X (in only 5 years) and I own over 66% of it. Not going to get that 66% with interest only here my friend.

I do not do business in houses (nor care too) just have family in the business/real-estate. And again, most people in my area can ONLY afford home with this tactic. Unless you can afford a 500K+ house to 850K and the cheap ones are about 250K good luck. Hell, I was looking at a larger home but a 700K house is not going to cut it. I want to say in 6 more years I am done with home payments (for good); unlike interest only people that will have (own) nothing in that time. Then, it is max out 401K.

Again you HOPE the property is increase. You are gambling here. I have seen them go down. So now all the people you stated it was a good deal are now screwed.

Unless you live in a small city, 15K miles is a joke. I have people/co-workers (many) that drive over 1.5 hours ONE WAY to work. Many 1+ hour. Hell, I can drive over 40% of your “average” on my bike alone (in a few warm months). So now an average 15K is “most”? I do not see percents here. Hell, my wife was over 28K per year. I was over 20K just driving back and forth to school for my last degree and to work. That is it.

Then you have the people that say you can deduct you mileage to work etc. Anyother drop in the bucket, like again medical on taxes. Not worth your time. I get more miles from driving at work. I can get more $$$ from a single quarter on my 401 that is before taxes.

You are stating a lot of if’s, not many, SUBSTANTIALLY, averages and buts here. I know what I make and what can own, afford and want to afford. If you pay off your car in 3 year (like a normal person) you OWN it. I do not like renting a car and paying for time. some might, that is great. But in the end, you will have zero to show for all the payments you made. I want to OWN that time, not give someone else the money. In that time, I have something to show……

So now you want me to refi my home at a higher rate then I have now (4.125%) and then put money down on other areas to gamble? sorry, but I will take my house, almost paid off unlike others, take my paid off cars, tractor, bike and say I own something. Then I can take the “free” party cash and do something with it. Then look back at all the people who are still paying on nothing (leasing or interest only homes) or buying time and in the end, nothing to show. Having a zero bills before 38 is a nice picture.

Agian, as I stated before, some think leasing is great; have at it. Some think owning something is great; have at it. Find what works for you since there is NO cookie cutter answer for all. I just know I like to having something after I make payments on something.

[SW03ES]

Again define “enormous befits” since a few K is a joke when buying large items. It is like whining about a dishwasher on a 500K home. Again you need a big income in to get your own money back. You can't just sell avon and think everything is a write off, which most do. There is more too it then bam, writing off a 30K plus car. It does not work that way.

It might surprise you to know that some people make a *lot* of money selling avon...

And you don't have to earn a big income to get the benefit of these kinds of deductions, actually quite the opposite depending on your tax structure and whether AMT applies to you or not.

I have a 15 year mortgage since I can afford it. I just stated what I am doing. I do not care that it is not the normal. It is an option that to me is the best on out there. I also thinking to doing a bi-weekly to drop it even more. I also upped my retirement (401K) to over 15% and my company MATCHES that. My wife’s money is all “play” money. Interset only is not worth my time…sorry.

So potentially earning a 20% ROI isn't worth your time? Wow...I wish I was that rich.

No need to get nasty, I'm a professional and I gave you a suggestion about what I would do in your scenario. If you don't want to do it, don't. You've freely told me what you would do and that everything I've said is stupid, telling you I think you're missing out on ways to maximize your wealth building potential is hardly any different. if anything you should thank me for caring...

I house is a lot better investment then a high yield investment. My house has gone up 300X (in only 5 years) and I own over 66% of it. Not going to get that 66% with interest only here my friend.

Actually I know many people who own over 66% of their homes they financed with interest only loans...depending on where they live and where they bought. If your house has gone up 300 times (I'm sure you mean't 300%) then you would own more than 66% of it with an interest only loan.

Here's the math:

$300,000 house with 300% increase over 5 years. Current value: $1,200,000.

Providing you didn't refinance or take any equity out, you would have $900,000 in equity even if you had a 10 year interest only ARM. So, you'd own how much? 75%.

300% is a huge increase though, are you sure thats right? My guess is its increased no more than 150%. Even so:

$300,000 house with 150% increase over 5 years. Current value: $750,000

You'd have $450,000 in equity and you'd own 60%.

Or you could take the equity out to an 80% LTV and buy several other properties that would:

1. Also appreciate

2. Provide you positive monthly cashflow

3. Give you HUGE tax savings.

Or you could leave it there giving you warm fuzzies and earning you nothing.

What you don't realize is that a house can ALSO be a high yield investment, if you leverage it properly.

I am done with home payments (for good); unlike interest only people that will have (own) nothing in that time. Then, it is max out 401K.

My question is why would you want to own a home outright unless you were retired? Real estate is going to yield you better results than your 401k (not that you shouldn't invest in that way, you should) and the interest you pay is tax deductible. Why not put that equity to use until you need it?

Lets say you own 15 leveraged investment properties, you want to retire. Sell them all and buy 10 outright. If your average rent is $1800 a month, whats your income? $18,000 per month on top of whatever other investments you have. All of that from investments that have never monthly cost you anything, in fact they've MADE you money out of investment money that materialized from market appreciation. Beautiful.

Again you HOPE the property is increase. You are gambling here. I have seen them go down. So now all the people you stated it was a good deal are now screwed.

Real estate is the single most stable investment out there, if you look on the long term real estate has not been a depreciating commodity ANYWHERE in America. In my area the average yearly appreciation over the last 30 years is 6.9%. There was only one year of a decline, 1992 where prices fell 1.9%. The next year was positive again.

Even if values were to decline, investing in real estate this way you have only cashflow neutral or positive investments so it doesn't matter. If values drop, you just hang on to the property until they come back up. Do you know what happens when the sales market goes down? The rental market goes up! People still have to live somewhere! If they can't or won't buy, they'll rent. So if you own rental properties your monthly return increases.

Real Estate is a VERY stable and lucrative long term investment and its the only source of wealth for most Americans.

And nobody that I've ever told an investment was a good deal is screwed, how could they be when their investments are earning them 5-30% annual return? They're not screwed, they're building wealth.

Real estate is a local market and the values, affordability indices, projected growth, etc vary by as specifically as street by street within a specific neighborhood. There is no "national real estate market". Its a group of MANY local markets. Of course there's risk involved, theres risk in any investment. However, if you choose what you're buying based on lots of past data and make projections based on that the risk is reduced to almost nothing.

For instance a 2 bedroom condo near the subway is always a smart investment in a city with strong economy and projections for strong employment growth. Beach property is riskier, single family homes are riskier etc. Smart investing is not gambling, thats silly.

Unless you live in a small city, 15K miles is a joke. I have people/co-workers (many) that drive over 1.5 hours ONE WAY to work. Many 1+ hour. Hell, I can drive over 40% of your “average” on my bike alone (in a few warm months). So now an average 15K is “most”? I do not see percents here. Hell, my wife was over 28K per year. I was over 20K just driving back and forth to school for my last degree and to work. That is it.

The national average mileage driven in a year was 11,988 in 2000 as cited by the US Department of Transportation's Federal Highway Association:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/vm1.htm

All you have to do is look at used cars, and devide their mileage by their age. You'll usually get something around 10-15k miles per year.

The dictionary definition of average is:

"The usual or ordinary kind or quality"

As reported by the American Heritage Edition Dictionary of the English language

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=average

Then you have the people that say you can deduct you mileage to work etc. Anyother drop in the bucket, like again medical on taxes. Not worth your time. I get more miles from driving at work. I can get more $$$ from a single quarter on my 401 that is before taxes.

The last year I leased leasing saved me nearly $4,000 on my taxes, that means it put $4,000 CASH back into my pocket on an income of $91,000. Thats in 1 year, thats a tax savings over a 3 year lease of $12,000 for lease payment totals of $18,000. That means over 3 years it would cost me ~$6,000 to drive my Lexus. Thats a net cost to me of $167 a month if my lease payment is $500 a month. Nothing to complain about and worth my time wouldn't you think?

If you pay off your car in 3 year (like a normal person) you OWN it.

Why do you think most people pay off their cars in 3 years?!?! The average car loan now is 60 months.

So now you want me to refi my home at a higher rate then I have now (4.125%) and then put money down on other areas to gamble?

Because you wouldn't be gambling you'd be investing, gambling is stupid, investing is smart. The refinance may cost you some in rate, but you'll make a LOT more on your investment and you'd build net worth providing you make a smart investment.

Having a zero bills before 38 is a nice picture.

I'm 24 and am well on my way to having a net worth of $1,000,000+. I have been working for 6 years. Thats it. I could be retired and wealthy by age 38. Thats a pretty nice picture too.

You seem to have all the answers (you always do) and are completely closed to any of the things I've been saying here, but I'll say them all the same in the hopes that someone will read them and they will help them. Dare I say you have no reason to ever say a word to Monarch about his blind distrust of synthetic oil again, you're being just as closed minded here.

If anyone has any questions about leveraging your real estate investments to their greatest potential feel free to PM me, I talk about this all day long and I'll be happy to discuss it with anyone who wants to hear.

[mburnickas]

I am not rich but I am not robbing peter to pay Paul and hope Alice can make money. You plan has too many if’s, average (as I stated). One things goes down, you are screwed.

With your plain (interest only, but more real estate, lease cars) if something happens (which they do), you just got porked. Nice.

Yes my house has gone up that much. I played very little and now that price is WAY to high. Removed my in-ground pool and added about 30K to the end line. Again it helps to know people in the business. What I could get for it is scary and only a fool would pay that much. I OWN the home and I would not pay what they say I can get. It is all fuzzy numbers or inflated by banks.

I can get at my 401K anytime I want with no penalty. I also like the return on it and I can max it out at 25% of my pay (which I am going to do). That I know is a fact since I have called my corporation on it. I invest more into my 401K since it has a slow and steady return. Unlike houses that can go up some and down. Sorry, I did not work for my money to throw it all away. The other way you can have the money lose more of your money.

I know several people that played your game of “investment properties”. You can crash and burn pretty hard here. Sorry I will take my 8-to10% growth (always) and keep going.

Next is your housing market is over inflated and it FALLING now. I see more prices reduced signs now; almost like in the 80’s here (remember)?. Again you are gambling here and I know what I see and people I talk too. I am not saying you are wrong but you are leaving MANY open loops and nothing is that simple. Nothing.

Next is it is 2006, not 2000 here on the average miles per year. Again I know what people I work with and personally care nothing about averages etc. I care about what I do and what is around me. Never mind the 6-year-old data. Again, the 15K miles is an AVERAGE, that does not mean most. Averages are just that.

Again $4,000 tax savings is putting back YOUR own money. #2, if your income changes, all your #’s are out the window. Too bad when done, you still have nothing. I can get those savings now. Next is your “average car loan now is 60 months”. I again do not care about averages, I care about what I took and why; which is 3 years. Wifes car is done along with my tractor. With your long loan, you obviously can't do a smaller term loan since the payments are too high. Add that to your interest only home (which most can’t afford a real loan) and your other real estate and you are banking a lot on everything. Sorry, bad way to live as I see it.

You are investing, gambling etc. It is all the same thing. Just a fancy way of putting it. If I listened to those people I would have lost A LOT after 9/11. You are playing the odds to what you THINK will happen. I know with your strategy (if I had it) I would loss lots if I lost my job and my family would be out on the street. As I did it, I could lose my job and be 100% fine. Sorry, too much gambling here with your way.

To close, thanks for the “closed minded” comment, I am shocked to here that (not really). I am just stating your tactics are nice and fine but you are gambling here, big time. I also never called your ways stupid, if you go back and read you will clearly see that. I will take a different route that is more stable for me and my family, having something to show for it and not have Robin Hood tactics. I have seen enough losing money with ways like this. If I was single and in my 20's maybe. In my 30's with a family and a good job, no thanks. I learned a few things in my life so far then listen to all the "if's, could's etc" and the salesmen approach.

[SW03ES]

I am not rich but I am not robbing peter to pay Paul and hope Alice can make money. You plan has too many if’s, average (as I stated). One things goes down, you are screwed.

Who'se robbing anybody to pay anybody anything? What are you talking about?

With your plain (interest only, but more real estate, lease cars) if something happens (which they do), you just got porked. Nice.

What would happen? Give me a scenario.

Yes my house has gone up that much. I played very little and now that price is WAY to high. Removed my in-ground pool and added about 30K to the end line. Again it helps to know people in the business. What I could get for it is scary and only a fool would pay that much. I OWN the home and I would not pay what they say I can get. It is all fuzzy numbers or inflated by banks.

It went up 300% or 300 times? If it went up 300 times a $300,000 house would be worth $90,000,000 I don't think you meant that.

As for fuzzy numbers inflated by banks?! You mean appraisals? Yes, appraisals can be very inflated depending on the purpose for which they were done. Appraisals for refinances for instance are often very inflated, which can be a real problem for people if they're accessing all their equity. Appraisals done for stepped up value, personal knowledge, or primary purchase are much more conservative. The best way to find out what your home is worth is to call a real estate agent in and have them do a CMA for you. This will give your MARKET VALUE which is supported by 3-6 months of past comparable sales data. Most will do this for free for you in the hopes of earning your future business, I do.

As for "its nice to have people in the business" I know, I AM in the business

Unlike houses that can go up some and down. Sorry, I did not work for my money to throw it all away. The other way you can have the money lose more of your money.

I know several people that played your game of “investment properties”. You can crash and burn pretty hard here. Sorry I will take my 8-to10% growth (always) and keep going.

Again, how? Give me a scenario.

Next is your housing market is over inflated and it FALLING now. I see more prices reduced signs now; almost like in the 80’s here (remember)?. Again you are gambling here and I know what I see and people I talk too. I am not saying you are wrong but you are leaving MANY open loops and nothing is that simple. Nothing.

Remember, there is no national "housing market" there are thousands of individual local markets. MY housing market is certainly not over-inflated and is not falling. Some markets are. Most markets aren't. I work in my market every day, and you have no basis for that statement.

Next is it is 2006, not 2000 here on the average miles per year. Again I know what people I work with and personally care nothing about averages etc. I care about what I do and what is around me. Never mind the 6-year-old data. Again, the 15K miles is an AVERAGE, that does not mean most. Averages are just that.

So you think the average miles driven has increased 200% b ecause you drive 200% more than that? Guess what! not everybody is like you!.

And again, look up the definition of the word average.

Again $4,000 tax savings is putting back YOUR own money. #2, if your income changes, all your #’s are out the window. Too bad when done, you still have nothing. I can get those savings now. Next is your “average car loan now is 60 months”. I again do not care about averages, I care about what I took and why; which is 3 years. Wifes car is done along with my tractor. With your long loan, you obviously can't do a smaller term loan since the payments are too high. Add that to your interest only home (which most can’t afford a real loan) and your other real estate and you are banking a lot on everything. Sorry, bad way to live as I see it.

Yes...its my money. So? Its money I would otherwise have had to pay to uncle sam, so instead I'm putting it back in my pocket. Its called reducing my TAX LIABILITY.

I don't care what you did, I'm talking about what most people do. The typical loan is 60 months now, ask someone who lends for cars.

You're operating on the premise that I'm advocating people live outside their means which I'm not. I'm not suggesting people get interest only mortgages or lease cars because they can only afford them that way. I'm suggesting that people look at how much individual items are costing them and make those items cost them the least possible and make them as much as possible. Auto leasing and interest only mortgages are simply financial management tools to manage thier debt. Are they right for everybody? No. Are they right for a whole lot of people? Sure.

All I'm saying is if you only intend to stay in a house 5-10 years (most people nowadays) then you aren'y paying any principal back really, so why bother? Put that money towards other investments, put it in your 401k if you're too scared and blinded by the media to invest in other ways. Make it GROW instead of sitting somewhere where it can't do anything.

If you only keep cars 3 years or less (most people keep cars longer) and only drive 15k a year (most people only drive 15k per year or so) then leasing is cheaper for you than buying. Invest that money in your 401k again if you don't have the guts for higher yield investments.

You are investing, gambling etc.

So you think you're gambling by funding your 401k? If all investing is gambling...

I suggest you look up the definitions of investing and gambling when you look up the definition of gambling.

having something to show for it and not have Robin Hood tactics.

Robin hood tactics?!? What the hell are you babbling about? Who'se robbing from the rich and giving to the poor? If you're going to make a statement, try and make one you understand the meaning of first.

I know with your strategy (if I had it) I would loss lots if I lost my job and my family would be out on the street. As I did it, I could lose my job and be 100% fine. Sorry, too much gambling here with your way.

LOL, you don't even understand my strategy...

Good lord, I'm sorry that I gave jragosta and Monarch so much heat for fighting with you. You are exasperatingly stubborn and closed minded. News flash, you don't know everything about everything. Jragosta with his PhD probably knows more than you do about filter technology and I as a real estate professional know more than you do about real estate investing.

Good lord :whistles:

[mburnickas]

I see your ways and I dislike it as I stated. Robin Hood if you do not know is what you are trying to steal money form one thing and do something else. Hence you take your home with an ARM (bright move), buy another, lease your car and put all your eggs on the line. Great moves here. You can get burned pretty badly here and have seen it many times.

You want me to refi my house with an ARM (BONG) just to make you happy. Just because you have this attitude that you are right is great, have at it. Too bad you do not know my $$$$$ nor am I LOOKING for advice here on this forum. THis forum is about Lexus and auto's right?

I also NEVER stated to know all. I just know there is more to it then you are posting here. Feel free to contact your buddies jragosta and Monarch and talk more about it. Since I for one could careless about what "free" advise you post at 24 years old, nor did I ask for it. Talk about high risk is not the words...

Go play with someone else money, not mine. I know why I do and why I did it.

If you where doing great you would own your car and not lease it; pay cash. You would also be on some island with the rich and shameless not here. LOL

[SW03ES]

I see your ways and I dislike it as I stated. Robin Hood if you do not know is what you are trying to steal money form one thing and do something else. Hence you take your home with an ARM (bright move), buy another, lease your car and put all your eggs on the line. Great moves here. You can get burned pretty badly here and have seen it many times.

Tell me how I can get burned, give me a scenario.

And how am I stealing money from anything? I'm simply leveraging MY assets so that they get as close to their highest growth potential as possible with as little risk as possible. I can't steal my own assets.

You want me to refi my house with an ARM (BONG) just to make you happy. Just because you have this attitude that you are right is great, have at it.

I don't want you to do anything to make me happy, all I did was tell you what *I* would do in this scenario. It depends on a lot of different variables, and since I don't know what those variables are I don't have enough information to advise you to do anything. If I owned what you owned, thats what I would do. But, I'm not you.

You seem fixated on the "ARM", why don't you tell me what a 10/1 ARM is I don't think you understand it. I have an investor on a 2/28 ARM, why don't you tell me what that is too. How about a pay option ARM? I have several investors on those.

Since I for one could careless about what "free" advise you post at 24 years old

You can slam me all you want for only being 24 years old, it doesn't bother me. I've accomplished more in my life than many people EVER do. I know what I'm talking about, the proof is in the pudding.

If you where doing great you would own your car and not lease it; pay cash. You would also be on some island with the rich and shameless not here. LOL

Actually I did pay cash for my car, bought it out of the lease when I started my real estate business. Could you write a $28,000 check when you were 22? My guess is no. Can you write a $28,000 check now?

It was a mistake, I wanted to save the payment for a while but it cost me a lot in tax savings and I absolutely will lease my next business car. I don't lease cars because I can't afford to buy them, I could pay cash for an $80,000 car tomorrow. It just wouldn't be an efficient use of my assets. I'd rather leave those assets somewhere that MAKES me money instead of wasting them on something that COSTS money, like a car. Right now, I own two cars free and clear.

You just don't understand, admit it. This statement proves it:

If you where doing great you would own your car and not lease it; pay cash

This proves you haven't understood a word I've been saying.

[LEXIRX330]

:chairshot: :chairshot: :chairshot:

With interest rates rising and sorry to offend anyone in the real estate business "the slowing market" that is reported on every national NEWS station I would be crazy to take a interest only loan. Had a 15 year on last home on new home took a 30 and pay additional into principal every month. I write off the interest and I do not plan on selling my home. I know plenty of people that have bought homes with interest only loans that are betting the market is going up so that they can sell them just to make enough money to pay the realtors. I have to agree I am seeing more reduced prices and all of the news media is reporting the same. I deal with many of people that have been in the real estate business 30 years and up, and they all tell me the same.

I purchased my first house at the right time sold it, and bought another at the right time...I could have done it with interest only loans? Why would I? Yes it is gambling and you said it yourself that if the market falls just hang on to them until they go back up...I myself am guaranteed that my rate will not go up for 30 years.

Scenario:

You are a realtor since market is slowing and interest rates are on rise...you make substantially less money in the next few years...and if family can not bail you out and you can't make those interest only loan payments can't get equity line because now you owe more than the house is worth. Bankruptcy! See below:

Risk Factor

Nationwide, there has been an increased use in exotic mortgage loans of

interest only and adjustable rate mortgages. Though, such data are not readily

available for the local market, it is likely following this national trend. Therefore,

rising interest rates will place some homeowners in greater risk of default . But

the risks are mitigated from recent healthy job gains. Given the favorable

housing affordability, significant gains in home prices are certainly possible,

particularly if the job market strengthens.

• There is no good information regarding interest-only loans in the local market. But if

it reflects a national trend of a higher usage of interest-only loans, then some

homeowners could feel the pinch of higher rates over time.

.btw see where I got this from...

National Association of REALTORS®

Research Division

500 New Jersey Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20001

The best way to find out what your home is worth is to call a real estate agent in and have them do a CMA for you. This will give your MARKET VALUE which is supported by 3-6 months of past comparable sales data. Most will do this for free for you in the hopes of earning your future business, I do.

I do agree with you on this! And yes I think that if I was to buy a house with intentions to flip then I may consider not using a conventional loan! To each his/her own :D

[SW03ES]

Okay, new blood.

First of all, you can't believe everything you're hearing on the news. News is written with one purpose, to sell news. They have relentlessly bombarded real estate and not all of it is true. Like I said, there is no national real estate market, real estate is a local business. Our LOCAL market remains strong, as do most markets throughout the country.

It may not make sense for you to use an interest only ARM, like I said it only makes sense if you plan on living in the property 10 years or less. Again, you can pay principal at any time, you just don't HAVE to.

Scenario:

You are a realtor since market is slowing and interest rates are on rise...you make substantially less money in the next few years...and if family can not bail you out and you can't make those interest only loan payments can't get equity line because now you owe more than the house is worth. Bankruptcy! See below:

Okay, first of all good realtors make MORE in flat or declining markets then they do in sellers markets. Its very hard for realtors in a sellers market because competiton is huge for listings and it takes 5 times as much work to sell anything as a buyers' agent.

Again, I have amassed a lot of assets, if I were to get in a situation where I were making substantially less money I would simply move those assets around to reduce my monthly obligations. No bankruptcy!

Nationwide, there has been an increased use in exotic mortgage loans of

interest only and adjustable rate mortgages. Though, such data are not readily

available for the local market, it is likely following this national trend. Therefore,

rising interest rates will place some homeowners in greater risk of default . But

the risks are mitigated from recent healthy job gains. Given the favorable

housing affordability, significant gains in home prices are certainly possible,

particularly if the job market strengthens.

It absolutely puts homeowners who are STRETCHED TO MAKE THEIR MORTGAGE PAYMENTS in a greater risk of default. Not people who are smart about the amount of house they buy. Your monthly mortgage payment should be no more than 25% of your gross monthly income. People have been borrowing half, which is crazy. Remember, you can make principal payments at any time with an interest only ARM, you just don't HAVE to. There are also ARMS that automatically amortize after 10 years to a fixed rate over 20 years. Those products are awesome for people who are uneasy about the market, they get the savings for the first 10 years and then if the market is bad and they want to stay in the property instead of move up, they are locked in for a 20 year fixed rate at the rate from 10 years ago.

Its also important to remember that interest rates rise and fall in cycles. One big sign that mburnickas doesn't know what he's talking about is that he said the market today looks like the 80s. Well, thats totally not true. First of all, real estate saw some of its greatest rises in the 80s, we just had a HUGE interest rate problem. The market today is NOTHING like the 80s. It cannot be compared.

I do agree with you on this! And yes I think that if I was to buy a house with intentions to flip then I may consider not using a conventional loan! To each his/her own

Well, I personally am not comfortable with flipping I think its too high risk in the market we're in. Real estate is safest when its a long term investment, the margins between profit and loss are too great on a flip. I have one investor client now that is flipping and I'm nervous for him. But, I made him aware of the facts before he decided to go this route, so theres not much more I can do.

[mburnickas]

I am not slamming you at all. If you did not understand it, I do not take advise from young people about $$$ and sure as hell not online. I will take someone with a life long career in investing and has lot of experience under then belt. I know what I was like has an engineer with only 6 years. I am a lot smarter now; I had good intentions but nothing (not even a degree) can take the place of real world experience.

I will pay older people for this. I was 24 I bought a house, already had a nice car, sorry. A car in life is not a lot of money here.

I called a VP at Lincoln Financial and talked with her. She is my co-workers wife. After bsing for a short time, in the end even she stated an ARM was not for me and why. I asked about leasing autos and she even leases her RX and going to buy it something next. Tired of leases she stated. She did give me pros and cons on both cars and homes. Some was what I understood and some was new. All options have things to look out for and the ARM on homes you can get in deep trouble with (payments can get high quick in a few months). Home are good but are dropping in sales due to rate increases; nothing new.

Its also important to remember that interest rates rise and fall in cycles. One big sign that mburnickas doesn't know what he's talking about is that he said the market today looks like the 80s. Well, thats totally not true. First of all, real estate saw some of its greatest rises in the 80s, we just had a HUGE interest rate problem. The market today is NOTHING like the 80s. It cannot be compared.

So now you remembers the 80's? Were you not born in the 1982? I just remember that the houses in MY areas were hard to find, same as now. But what do I know, I just live here.

So take it as you will but I am pretty much set on gambling my $$$ I have. Feel free to do as you wish with your funds. I know why I did and for valid reasons.

[LEXIRX330]

First of all, you can't believe everything you're hearing on the news. News is written with one purpose, to sell news. They have relentlessly bombarded real estate and not all of it is true. Like I said, there is no national real estate market, real estate is a local business. Our LOCAL market remains strong, as do most markets throughout the country.

I don't live far away...who do you think is driving up our real estate! People from DC, Annapolis, NY, NJ, and PA.

And I will believe what I hear on the news. I also will listen to people who have been in the business for much longer than you. They are currently not buying any properties now because they expect the market to fall...I just got off of the phone with 2 realtors that have their own Real Estate Agencies guess what they have both told me the same thing...SLOW

First of all, you can't believe everything you're hearing on the news. News is written with one purpose, to sell news.

And to think you told me I should be a politician...we are not talking about the National Inquire here. FOX, CNN, MSNBC all wrong?????

Well you can be president :whistles:

[SW03ES]

If you did not understand it, I do not take advise from young people about $$$ and sure as hell not online.

I will pay older people for this.

Your loss. I've started and built 3 successful businesses and sold two, the proof of my abilities in this area are there.

Would it surprise you to find out people choose to work with me over older people with years of experience all the time? Its because they're outdated and I have access to the latest technologies and techniques. The proof of my abilities speaks for itself.

Again, the ammunition you use against me is my age. Thats what everybody always uses against me because its all they've got, I'm used to it. Thats your problem, not mine. I consider it a stregnth and people with 30 years of experience look like doddering old fools after people talk to me. I am a very talented and worthy individual, my age means nothing.

I know what I was like has an engineer with only 6 years. I am a lot smarter now; I had good intentions but nothing (not even a degree) can take the place of real world experience.

Of course you remember what you were like as an engineer with 6 years experience, because at the most that was 3 years ago.

I'd also like to let everyone else in the forum know that mburnickas was born in 1975, 6 years before I was. So, he's obviously SO much more versed in everything than I am.

After bsing for a short time, in the end even she stated an ARM was not for me and why.

Again, I never once said an ARM was for you, I only say what *I* would do in your situation. Your goals are no doubt different than mine.

All options have things to look out for and the ARM on homes you can get in deep trouble with (payments can get high quick in a few months).

Again, you don't understand what a 10/1 ARM is. The payments don't change, the interest rate is locked in for 10 years, after 10 years the rate can shift and it can shift every year after that, but there are interest rate caps. The rate can also go down. But, you'll have refinanced out of it long before that or you would have bought another home were this the product for you.

So now you remembers the 80's? Were you not born in the 1982? I just remember that the houses in MY areas were hard to find, same as now. But what do I know, I just live here.

You think I haven't done research into the history of the real estate market? I have, in depth. I've taken college courses in real estate history, theory, and application. You don't think I work with people that were selling real estate in the 80s? My broker has been in real estate for 32 years. The market today is totally different than the market in the 80s, one HUGE difference is the interest rates. Rates, while on the rise, are still historically low. You had interest rates in the high teens in the 80s, with deferred interest loans and owner financing being the only way people could afford homes caused by rampent fear of inflation. Totally different world now.

However, since you couldn't even drive a car in 1989 you obviously were an expert in the financial climate of the 80s, since you were 5 in 1980, so my knowledge cannot begin to compare to yours obviously. Thank you for the opportunity to bask in your age-d wisdom

And I will believe what I hear on the news. I also will listen to people who have been in the business for much longer than you. They are currently not buying any properties now because they expect the market to fall...I just got off of the phone with 2 realtors that have their own Real Estate Agencies guess what they have both told me the same thing...SLOW

I work with people constantly who have been in business much longer than me, and I know people that think the market is fine and people who think it will fall. If you look at the statistics, and I look at them every day, you'll see no reason for a "fall" in the market. Certainly the market is slower depending on your location, but its not DECLINING anywhere in DC or the suburbs in Maryland. Now, Northern VA is another story but they have huge issues with over development going on out there that we don't have here.

I do this every day, and let me tell you for certain that much of what you hear on the news is over dramatized. Remember you can make facts and figures say whatever you want, you don't think our media has ever shown any sort of bias? I can show you three articles published in ONE issue of The Washington Post that all contradict each other. The media knows nothing.

I also want to thank you for not taking a pot-shot at me because of my age. You can question my knowledge because of my time in this business thats valid, but my age has nothing to do with this and mburnickas knows that.

FOX, CNN, MSNBC all wrong?????

They're not wrong, they're just spinning the information to suit their purpose. Again, there IS NO NATIONAL REAL ESTATE MARKET. Yet, you'll hear the news media say there is.

I can show you doom and gloom articles written in 2002 saying the "bubble is bursting blah blah blah" well, we know how right that was...

I don't live far away...

But as far as the real estate market is concerned you might as well be 1000 miles away. The market in your area is TOTALLY different from the markets here in DC metro area.

I wrote a contract on a house this week with 8 offers in Takoma Park for instance. It just depends on where you are and the accuracy of your pricing.

I am not slamming you at all.

Of course not, you're just telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about because I'm 24. Well, I'm not the one who thinks the payments change month to month on a 10/1 ARM and that the market now is the same as it was in the 80s.

Oh and by the way, you've still yet to give me a scenario in which I'll be "screwed". No surprise to me, because you can't think of one.

Why are you always so combative and nasty when someone disagrees with you? Why can't you just have a discussion about your opposing viewpoints without having to try and cut the other person down the way you've done me here, and you do Monarch when you disagree, and you did Jragosta when you disagreed. I mean, you've already been banned from one forum for being this way, and you've been on thin ice here before for the same reason. You think maybe the issue might lie with you? I've stuck my neck out to defend you, and I've lobbied for your membership to remain active here since you were banned on CL (Monarch's too but thats another story). Was I wrong to do that? I might have been.

I have time and time again demonstrated my mastery of knowledge about this topic and you completely refuse to acknowledge that at all, because I'm 24. Whats up with that? You're a whopping 6 years older than me, 6 years! You really think you've amassed so much "life experience" in 6 years you automatically know more than I do about my own professional field? How arrogant can you possibly be?

What legnths must someone go to before you'll even cede that they may have some iota of an idea what they're talking about even if they disagree with you? I have absolutely no problem having a discussion with anybody here about anything provided they treat me with respect. But you, you always have to get out the brass knuckles and punch whoever disagrees with you in the gut. Why?

I really have no desire to fight with you guys, but I'm not going to sit by while you try and tell me I'm not worthy of having a discussion with you because of my age (especially when you're only 6 years older than me, come on I spit my soda out laughing at you when I read that)despite my accomplishments and obvious wealth of knowledge about the topic we're discussing.

[mburnickas]

Sw03Es- You are either taking this WAY to much to heart.

To sum it up:

SW03Es, like leases, likes adj. rate mortages and thinks people should invest in lots of this and that.

Me: I like buying items, dislike leases and ARM and people should not over extend themselves and try to make money here and there. I can quite my job today and I lost nothing and nothing changes. I do not have to do ANYTHING.

From bank rate.com

"Someone taking out a $165,000.00 10/1 ARM at the current average would pay $1,007.36 a month for the first 10 years of the loan. The rate would change annually thereafter."

That is all fine and good but I pay about that for a fixed 15 year here. Sorry. Nevemind the higher rate then I have now.

FYI:

To close I never asked to know your background on loans nor did I personally care too. You jumped in the pool first did you not? Again did I ignore it, no, but I do not care to even know about this these things you posted on. I never asked....Kind of like when some mods here jump all over me for oil testing. I do not

posted here; I go to another website for oil related issues.

Since you brought it up, I would like to know why would my membership not remain active here since I have been pretty darn good over the last few months. Been banned from CL is not intergral to LOC here. Unless there is some "tie" here. Also I have never had any banned for a week, month etc. Like the others noted by you.

If you want to know more then me ont this, great, knock yourself out. I bring up your age since you think you talk about 1980’s like you where there. I remember the 80’s pretty good.

That is great you know all about investments and I hope I see you and Mr Trump together. LOL

Arrogant no, try 6 years or leaning can make or break something, bigtime. PLus this is not even the issue here. Nor do I care. I brought it up for 2 reasons. You talk like you "worked the 1980" in the market ( I remeber the 80's) and #2, I would not trust a 24 year old person with a few hundred K of my money or what to do with it. Sorry, just stated how I feel in genereal about the age deal. I have even asked for other brokers that are older. with stocks Just a personal thing. Just like work, I will/would take a 40 year engineer over an engineer with a few years under his/her belt.

I never thought your where dumb either; you seemed to assume that for some oddball reason. I do not have to “punch whoever disagrees with you in the gut”. I just have seen some people that know this and that and talk about there behind too. I can disagree and that is 100% fine too. I can be stubborn too; which is 100% fine.

Again I have been banned from clublexus and that means what in this conversation or related how? Nor do I really care ONE BIT about Jragosta or Monarch. If they left, good for them have a wonderful life. Again I have bigger and better things to worry about then this too. If I remember correctly, Jr left after his whinny post. You even helped.

I can disagree like I have in a professional manner (which I have). Just stating the way I see it without getting nasty as you stated. I have personally been pretty darn good. Yup, I am stubborn and I like that too. I do not get pushed around by workers, people, sales, etc. When I do a job I have to answer to higher people (government etc) I stand my ground. That to me is a good thing rather then listening to others when most times, they are just talking for no reason.

Why you are taking this thread so deep I have no idea.

[SW03ES]

I can quite my job today and I lost nothing and nothing changes. I do not have to do ANYTHING.

As can I

That is all fine and good but I pay about that for a fixed 15 year here. Sorry. Nevemind the higher rate then I have now

How is that possible?

$165,000.00 15 year fixed at 4.875%: $1353

And had you taken out a 10/1 ARM when you got that loan it would have been less because the rate would have been lower.

Now, remember I'm not saying you should have done that. It depends on your goals and how long you plan to own the house.

SW03Es, like leases, likes adj. rate mortages and thinks people should invest in lots of this and that.

Thats not true, stop misrepresenting my position. You make it sound like I'm saying everyone should invest everywhere, have an interest only mortgage and lease a car. I've never said that. All I said was leasing and interest only mortgages are not evil, they're financial management tools that make a lot of sense for some people. Thats all.

I bring up your age since you think you talk about 1980’s like you where there. I remember the 80’s pretty good. Do you?

You remember them as a child. I have proven that I know more about the financial climate of the 80s than you whether I was there or not.

Arrogant no, try 6 years or leaning can make or break something, bigtime.

So, because you have been alive 6 years more than me you automatically have a greater understanding of MY FIELD than I do? Thats what you've alluded to in this thread.

I can disagree like I have in a professional manner. Just stating the way I see it without getting nasty as you stated. I have personally been pretty darn good. Yup, I am stubborn and I like that. I do not get pushed around by workers, people, sales, etc and I want things done my way in many situations unless there is a good reason. Not other peoples, mine. When I do a job I have to answer to higher people (government etc) I stand my ground. That to me is a good thing rather then listening to others when most times, they are just talking for no reason.

You think by having dealt with me that I do let people push me around? No, I don't and I agree with you that its an admirable trait.

BUT, you've got to know when enough is enough and understand the limitations of your experience and knowledge. I do this for a living, I know more about it than you do. You even kinda ceded that to me here and I appreciate it.

So, why would you fight with me about it and bring up my age to try and discredit me? Thats cheap, and thats why every discussion you become a part of turns into a holy war and you wound up banned from ClubLexus.

[mburnickas]

I never stated what my loan is either. You should not assume here. It is possible since I do not have a loan for 165K. I put down more money (ENOUGH) to lower the payment bigtime. If I did not have money I would have to take out a larger loan.

I stated what I did since after all this posting that is the way I see it. I have a loan and you think I should refi it to an ARM. For example here.

Next I stated the 6 years since, well, I posted on it already.

As I stated above, “If you want to know more then me about this, great, knock yourself out.”

I am not fighting. This is called having a debate here or discussion here. Nor did I discredit you. If I did I am sorry but that is not spelled out here or above.

My “holy war” over on ClubLexus was due to people posting out of fiction not fact. My “discussions” of issues over there was with a select few

[SW03ES]

I never stated what my loan is either. You should not assume here. It is possible since I do not have a loan for 165K. I put down more money (ENOUGH) to lower the payment bigtime. If I did not have money I would have to take out a larger loan.

Well then you're not comparing apples to apples. Compare the loans with the same money down if you're going to compare them at all.

I stated what I did since after all this posting that is the way I see it. I have a loan and you think I should refi it to an ARM.

I never said that. All I said was that *I* would refinance the house if I were you to an ARM since I wouldn't be living there for more than 10 years and use the funds to purchase an investment property instead of leaving the equity there.

As I stated above, “If you want to know more then me about this, great, knock yourself out.”

But see, you can't bring yourself to admit that I know more about this than you do. You'll "let me think I do if I want" but you won't admit that its the truth.

I am not fighting. This is called having a debate here or discussion here. Nor did I discredit you. If I did I am sorry but that is not spelled out here or above.

I'm all down for having a discussion or a debate with anyone about anything, but you did try to discredit me regardless of wha you say. You don't fight fair, you fight dirty and whether you realize it or not it weakens your position. It makes you look weak, not strong.

This:

I do not take advise from young people about $$$

I will take someone with a life long career in investing and has lot of experience under then belt.

I will pay older people for this.

Is attempting to paint me as young and stupid and incompetent. Which is laughable considering that you're 6 years older than I am and I have a proven track record in business investment and you have none. I have started 3 successful businesses and have amassed a large net worth by investing in diversity and you have a house and a 401k. Its an attempt to discredit me, its rude, and its insulting. It weakens YOUR position because you resorted to it, not mine. People discredit others when they know they're outgunned.

If you want to have a debate lets have it, but leave that BS at home its a waste of my time and makes you look stupid.