914lps Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Car will not start. Just cranks . No spark at all. Both coils dead??? Pulled two spark plugs. They are dry. Seems like injectors not fireing. I have fuel pershure. Pulled timing belt cover. Belt is looking bad, but is still on. I get no check eng light when I'm trying to start the car. I was driving at about 60 MPH when 6car gave me a one or two second loss of power, then seemed OK. I pulled over and looked at the engine. Everything seemed OK. I took off again. Got up to 50 or so, and car went dead. Lost all power. Had a smell like a burned belt. Car would crank and not even try to start. Got towed to my shop. I'm in a small town. My car is the only lexus this shop sees. So, any ideas?? Any sugestions? We are going to see if we can pullany codes from the car. We will try to reset the CPU, and check the timing...... We are thinking that the timing belt sliped.... The car seems to have no "rsistance" when it cranks, like it is truning faster then normal?????? OK lets hear your thoughts..... Oh, I will be doing the t-belt and water pump as the t-belt is looking old.... But need to get car runing first....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFeldes Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Timing belt is cooked....That's why it spins faster....IMHO I hope I'm wrong!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Update: Timing belt as stated above is on it's last leg, but is working. We took the cover off and looked at it. Timing belt is turning when cranking. Will be replacing it and the water pump as srtated above, but first I need to find out why it is not runing... We checked compersion reads 220. We reset the CPU no help. Checked eng codes. We are getting the codes of 12 and 24 in that order. So, anyone have the info on what these codes stand for? From what I can tell, the code 24 is becouse we are trying to start the car with the Mas auir flow sensor off the car. And the code 12 is a timing issue??? If I'm right I get a gold star... But I would rather get the car runing. Anyone have any recomendations, other then puting the MAS back on the car and take a timing light to It? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obergc Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 for a 93 LS, code 12 is a problem with either the crankshaft position sensor or one of the two camshaft position sensors. You might check to make sure everythings plugged in good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadcutter Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 914ls: We are thinking that the timing belt slipped.... The car seems to have no "resistance" when it cranks, like it is running faster then normal?????? That really sounds like no compression..............Which would be a result of the T/B slipping. The easy way to check is to pull the Timing Belt Sprocket covers (spark plug covers), pull the spark plugs (or loosen them so that you've got very low compression), use a 22mm socket & breaker bar (or rachet or torque wrench) to turn the crank so that the timing mark lines up as illustrated; Once you've got that lined up, now check the Cam Sprockets for proper alignment as per this illustration; Do you see the white marks on the front face of the cam sprockets? Those may not have white paint on them, they may be indentations. Those should line up with marks on the front of the heads (behind the sprockets). The marks may be indentations on sheet metal pieces between the back of the sprocket(s) & the heads. DO NOT worry about any marks on the timing belt itself right now. The only thing that matters right now is that the crankshaft & cam sprockets are in correct mechanical timing. obergc stated: for a 93 LS, code 12 is a problem with either the crankshaft position sensor or one of the two camshaft position sensors. You might check to make sure everythings plugged in good. I believe the ECU is "lost" because of the T/B slipping & any information that it receives from the crank or cam positions sensors is too far outside of it's processing "range". It doesn't know where it is & doesn't know what to do. Also, give thanks to LexLS for his site, great pictures & information: LexLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFeldes Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Sounds like you are missing one or more teeth or have stretched your TB and you may get it running but at 2400 rpm plus or minus 50 MPH the "resonance" will kick it out of timing again. Ground zero...Sorry, but a good lesson for all that delay their maintenance on the timing belt. Been there, done that on a VW. Good luck 914lps. Everyone is trying so hard and I sincerely hope you get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Thanks for the help.. But.... Car is a 91 not a 93.......... I am home... Had car towed 172 miles. We did a compresion test tesed at 220. I am going to replace TB but want to get the car to start first. No piont in doing the TB if the car will not start due to another issue. I do apershate the attempts to help, but please before offering help and thoughts take the time to read what I'm dealing with and what I have done. I have seen this on other posts... Folks offering advise without reading all the info.... Why????? I will have my shop put the MAS back on and take a timing light to it. If it's that, we will reset the timing, get car runing.. Then replace TB and water pump. As for why the belt slipped. Not that likly it streached. More like just old and the tensioner let it slip. We well redo as per recomendations on Lexls's site ( damed good info). I know you all mean well, but I just do not like it when folks post stuff that showes they have not read the post completly or the threads to it. We will look at the marks on the cam sprokets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsalih Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Glad that you have it home know. No spark and yet it cranks is a strong indication of a bad crankshat position sensor as obergc mentioned. I really doubt your belt slipped, use an ohm meter and check the CPS and the connector going to it which is known to cause just such a problem in the past. I've heared of the wires breaking near or at the connector. Check this out before you do a TB/water pump! Let's us know what you find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 Glad that you have it home know. No spark and yet it cranks is a strong indication of a bad crankshat position sensor as obergc mentioned. I really doubt your belt slipped, use an ohm meter and check the CPS and the connector going to it which is known to cause just such a problem in the past. I've heared of the wires breaking near or at the connector. Check this out before you do a TB/water pump! Let's us know what you find. Should the metter read any set value, or will it just show open or closed? (what should it show) Also where is the sensor located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsalih Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Sensor is behind crank shaft pulley (harmonic balancer) attached at an angle with a connector plugged into it. I don't have the book with me but there is a resistance value (Ohm reading) that you should get, it's not an open/or close continutity check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 4, 2006 Author Share Posted March 4, 2006 Sensor is behind crank shaft pulley (harmonic balancer) attached at an angle with a connector plugged into it. I don't have the book with me but there is a resistance value (Ohm reading) that you should get, it's not an open/or close continutity check. On Lexls.com on the guide for doing the TB it shows the three sensors. So I know the location. Just need to know what reading I should get. Looks like this weekend I go buy an LS shop book. I should have one anyway. Just not looking forward to the price of over 150.00 I have seen for the real deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadcutter Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 On Lexls.com on the guide for doing the TB it shows the three sensors. So I know the location. Just need to know what reading I should get. Looks like this weekend I go buy an LS shop book. I should have one anyway. Just not looking forward to the price of over 150.00 I have seen for the real deal. 914: Try this site. Spend ten bucks for a one day subscription, & download like crazy................................ Toyota Technical Information System or TIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadfoot Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I agree with Threadcutter, its the best $10 you can possibly spend. I have two copies of the PDF's, one is based on the page numbers (which helps with the troubleshooting matrix references) and another with a description of what the pdf covers. You will get a sore clicking finger but it is the horses mouth. The manual for my 92 says INSPECTION OF SENSORS INSPECT SENSOR RESISTANCE HINT: Measuring the No.2 cam position sensor, remove the right side ignition coil. Using an ohmmeter, measure the resistance between the terminals. No. 1 cam position sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104°F) No.2 cam position sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104 °F) Engine speed sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104°F) If the resistance is not as specified, replace the pickup sensor. Hope this solves it, you have been really unlucky. Cheers, Leadfoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hope this solves it, you have been really unlucky. Cheers, Leadfoot. Thanks for the info. It seems like my Ls likes to have trouble when away from home.... But in a year of driving I may do 1,000 to `1,500 miles locale, the rust of at least 20,000+ miles all out of town. More then once I have done two 3,000 mile oil changes in one month. The TB service is was coming due... I had been putting it off. I believe this will end up being the TB slipped due to the tensioner.... No one to blame but me. Luck and the car had nothing to due with this one. I was pushing it. Now the BS I had with the PS pump is another story....... As My machanic is a nice guy that knows cars in generail, the LS he has worked on is mine, the Lexus book would be a smart investment. Just an expensive one. From what I'v heard none of the other books are worth it. Anyone looking to sell the repair manuail for a 91 LS 400? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 The truth comes out! The Harmonic Balancer came apart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinGT Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hmm... the harmonic balancer- I have had a similar experience with my '92 LS (208k); it will crank but won't start. The shop replaced the crankshaft sensor and the camshaft sensors, but with no luck. There is fuel available, so the fuel pump should be okay. It is up to date on maintanance (60k service with tbelt, new alternator, shocks, belt tensioner, etc.), but what does it cost to replace the balancer- we have no idea what is wrong, so hopefully this could be it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 Hmm... the harmonic balancer- I have had a similar experience with my '92 LS (208k); it will crank but won't start. The shop replaced the crankshaft sensor and the camshaft sensors, but with no luck. There is fuel available, so the fuel pump should be okay. It is up to date on maintanance (60k service with tbelt, new alternator, shocks, belt tensioner, etc.), but what does it cost to replace the balancer- we have no idea what is wrong, so hopefully this could be it.... Hard to say on the cost of just doing the balancer itself, as I did the TB etc, at the same time. If your guy replaced the sensor that mounts by the balancer, they should have been able to look to see if it was slipping or not. You need to pull a lot of stuff away to get to the piont that you can see it. Then try to turn the balancer and see if it slips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Roc Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Hmm... the harmonic balancer- I have had a similar experience with my '92 LS (208k); it will crank but won't start. The shop replaced the crankshaft sensor and the camshaft sensors, but with no luck. There is fuel available, so the fuel pump should be okay. It is up to date on maintanance (60k service with tbelt, new alternator, shocks, belt tensioner, etc.), but what does it cost to replace the balancer- we have no idea what is wrong, so hopefully this could be it.... Hard to say on the cost of just doing the balancer itself, as I did the TB etc, at the same time. If your guy replaced the sensor that mounts by the balancer, they should have been able to look to see if it was slipping or not. You need to pull a lot of stuff away to get to the piont that you can see it. Then try to turn the balancer and see if it slips. Let me get this right...So if the harmonic balancer is slipping, the car will crank but not start? I am also experiencing these symptoms on my 91...When it gets hot, it will fail to restart... 'Check engine light' does not come on when the car fails to restart...I'm getting spark and fuel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 That is what happend on my car. Also remember the sensor mounted to the balance cover got melted off due to the heat of the balancer slipping.. The effect is something like the timing belt being brorken. I'm just very happy that a 91 is a non-interferance engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Roc Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 That is what happend on my car. Also remember the sensor mounted to the balance cover got melted off due to the heat of the balancer slipping.. The effect is something like the timing belt being brorken. I'm just very happy that a 91 is a non-interferance engine. Very interesting! So when it cooled off, the car would start again? About how much didja pay for a new balancer? Am I correct to say that if one of the cam sensors were faulty, the car would still run on 4 cylinders? or??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinGT Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 An update- the problem with my LS was not the harmonic balancer, but a fuel injector pump relay (I will check on the bill to make sure that is what it was). It took the shop a long time to find it, but those electrical problems are a total pain. I asked them about the balancer but they said that they had checked it, and that if it was broken the car wouldn't start at all, whereas mine would intermittently start. These problems are incredibly frustrating...........I hear ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Roc Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 An update- the problem with my LS was not the harmonic balancer, but a fuel injector pump relay (I will check on the bill to make sure that is what it was). It took the shop a long time to find it, but those electrical problems are a total pain. I asked them about the balancer but they said that they had checked it, and that if it was broken the car wouldn't start at all, whereas mine would intermittently start. These problems are incredibly frustrating...........I hear ya! Austin, would your car start when it was hot? Can someone explain to me in detail how a broken harmonic balancer could keep the engine from starting? Mine starts fine when cold, but fails to restart when hot :( w/no check engine light (weird) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Roc Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 I agree with Threadcutter, its the best $10 you can possibly spend. I have two copies of the PDF's, one is based on the page numbers (which helps with the troubleshooting matrix references) and another with a description of what the pdf covers. You will get a sore clicking finger but it is the horses mouth. The manual for my 92 says INSPECTION OF SENSORS INSPECT SENSOR RESISTANCE HINT: Measuring the No.2 cam position sensor, remove the right side ignition coil. Using an ohmmeter, measure the resistance between the terminals. No. 1 cam position sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104°F) No.2 cam position sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104 °F) Engine speed sensor resistance (Cold): 835 ohms to 1,350 ohms from -10 to +40°C (14 to 104°F) If the resistance is not as specified, replace the pickup sensor. Hope this solves it, you have been really unlucky. Cheers, Leadfoot. Leadfoot, would these values still hold if the car were at normal operating temps or would they be different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinGT Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 The first time it failed, it had been sitting for about four hours- it was cool, but not completely cold. Once at the shop, they managed to start it, and took it for a test drive. As they were returning (so it would be hot), it just quit on them. After that, they kept driving it a couple times a day, and it ran perfect. After three days of no stalling or dying, they called me to come pick it up- I started it up, let it warm up for a minute, then as I put it into Reverse it stalled and wouldn't restart. So, I guess that it didn't start when it was warm- however, it seemed to run fine for a while at the shop. Sorry I can't give you a more definative answer, as the LS spent over a month at the shop while they tried to find the problem (they checked the ECU, coils, camshaft sensors, etc.) so I am not sure all the conditions it was tested under...still MY experience was that when it stalled or wouldn't start was independant of engine temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
914lps Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 That is what happend on my car. Also remember the sensor mounted to the balance cover got melted off due to the heat of the balancer slipping.. The effect is something like the timing belt being brorken. I'm just very happy that a 91 is a non-interferance engine. Very interesting! So when it cooled off, the car would start again? About how much didja pay for a new balancer? Am I correct to say that if one of the cam sensors were faulty, the car would still run on 4 cylinders? or??? When your balancer goes out. Your car is dead till you fix it. Just like if your timing belt brakes. Eng temp would not matter. There are lots of things that can make a car run cold, then fail when it is hot. When things get hot they expand, and a part that is getting ready to completly fail may act up when only hot. I have seen plug wires act like this, and coils. But there are other parts that can do it. It is a real pain in the you know what to fix. Find a shop that will work with you. You need to make a list of the parts that can be doing this, and replace them one at a time till you find the bad part. Use known good used parts till you find the fix. I had this on my Saab. Turned out to be the coil. But we first replaced the fuilpump as it was acting like a fuil delivery problme. Car would drive fine for about 50 miles. Then cut in and out, then die. After 5 min it would restart for another 50 miles or so. Ask lexls or some of the other good guys on this board what they think it could be. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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