wwest Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Sorry, but our 4x4 Jeeps run circles around our RX300 AWD in the snow. That's just the way it is, folks. If you need to get around in snow, get a true 4x4.... Tell you what though, you take your Jeep in 4X4 mode, locked center differential, and run the tightest circles you can on a slippery surface of your choice and I will then take the very same Jeep in 2WD/RWD (assuming it has one) and either run tighter circles at the same speed or the same radius at a greater speed. I would even challenge you with your own AWD RX300 if you gave me permission to convert it to "direct" RWD and only the viscous coupling to the front. Driving all four wheels only helps for acceleration. Having engine drive torque to the front wheels while going in circles at a constant speed is actually detrimental to performance in that situation. Dedicate the front tires roadbed adhesion coefficient strictly to lateral, directional control, and stearing capability, response, improves dramatically on a slippery surface. That's why we're seeing so many new (***) AWD systems that dynamically re-apportion torque according to the circumstances at hand. The new Honda/Acura SH-AWD system can even apportion torque side to side at the rear to help prevent the understearing FWD vehicles have otehrwise always been famous for. Volvo XC90 Ford FreeStyle Lexus GS Lexus IS Toyota 4runner Acura RL Acura RDX Are there others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Driving all four wheels only helps for acceleration. Having engine drive torque to the front wheels while going in circles at a constant speed is actually detrimental to performance in that situation. Dedicate the front tires roadbed adhesion coefficient strictly to lateral, directional control, and stearing capability, response, improves dramatically on a slippery surface. Well "duh". "Run circles around it" is a figure of speech, RX in NC knows how a vehicle operates in the snow and the physics behind it I'm sure. He wasn't suggesting he could literally drive a Jeep in a tight circle better than an RX. He meant the Jeep would out perform the RX in snow driving. Volvo XC90Ford FreeStyle Lexus GS Lexus IS Toyota 4runner Acura RL Acura RDX Are there others? And what exactly is it that these vehicles have in common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Driving all four wheels only helps for acceleration. Having engine drive torque to the front wheels while going in circles at a constant speed is actually detrimental to performance in that situation. Dedicate the front tires roadbed adhesion coefficient strictly to lateral, directional control, and stearing capability, response, improves dramatically on a slippery surface. Well "duh". "Run circles around it" is a figure of speech, RX in NC knows how a vehicle operates in the snow and the physics behind it I'm sure. He wasn't suggesting he could literally drive a Jeep in a tight circle better than an RX. He meant the Jeep would out perform the RX in snow driving. ------------------------------------------------ Sorry, you missed my point entirely. I never said the RX was equal, or not, to anything. What I said, or was trying to get across, was that a RWD or rear biased AWD ( a modified RX) would likely OUTPERFORM his 4X4 Jeep using a locked center diff'l in overall adverse conditions. Just how many of us would willingly chose the ability to accelerate more rapidly, or at all, in averse conditions, in favor of the possibility that that choice might result in loss of directional control? How many of us have witnessed 4X4s being overdriven and ending up in the ditch or worse? Rear biased AWD is undoubtedly one of today's wonders of technology. Those on the below list are even ahead of that benchmark. ------------------------------------------------ Volvo XC90Ford FreeStyle Lexus GS Lexus IS Toyota 4runner Acura RL Acura RDX Are there others? And what exactly is it that these vehicles have in common? All of them dynamically and automatically reapportion engine torque to the rear, away from the front, when front traction is best allocated to lateral, directional control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mehullica Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Enough already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmhtmh Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Looks like a lot of posts here are from folks not used to 4 months of winter driving for 20+ years! There is a BIG difference between "traction in the snow" and "control during a skid on ice". AWD, VSC, etc. play different roles in each. AWD will certainly help keep one from getting STUCK in snow/mud/etc. However, it does little or actually hurts in a sideways skid on ice. ANY rotation of the rear wheels when slipping adds to the back end coming around, out of control. Actually, most AWD's with traction control scare the heck out of me, as they behave nothing like "normal" in winter driving. Traction and stability control also do little in an icy slide. It's all about traction in FRONT (pull the car out). Weight on the front and GOOD snow tires is what accomplishes this. NOT AWD/VSC, etc. I'll take a FWD SUV with good snow tires over an 4x4 with all-weather when trying to navigate icy, dangerous conditions. I'd take a 4x4 to plow through deep stuff and not get stuck though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX in NC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The operative word here is "snow". True 4x4s are always superior in "snow" as long as they are sporting decent tire tread depth and proper pressure. Ice is a very different story. Once you begin that slide, you're often hosed regardless of what you're driving unless it's a Zamboni or a road scraper. It's basically hang on, don't panic, stay off the brakes, and steer in the direction of your skid. I've driven on ice hundreds of times in my life and it is always an adventure regardless of what I'm driving. Your best bet on ice is to use tire chains. But the safest option of all is to stay off the roads and leave the crashes to the morons who will be all over your local six o'clock news broadcasts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW03ES Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
II Kings 9:20 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I drive a torque happy RWD Chrysler 300C in all the snow central Ohio has thrown at me for the last two Winters and have had no problems (yet) on non snow tires. I head out to pick up my 01 RX 300 AWD tonight in DeWitt Iowa that I bought off of ebay. I expect the "AWD" RX will be even better than the 300C and FWD Odyssey I have now. The 01 X5 was not great in the snow but better than any RWD Bimmer. The Best AWD systems are Audi, Jeep, and Subaru. Newer BMW systems are better than original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I drive a torque happy RWD Chrysler 300C in all the snow central Ohio has thrown at me for the last two Winters and have had no problems (yet) on non snow tires. I head out to pick up my 01 RX 300 AWD tonight in DeWitt Iowa that I bought off of ebay. I expect the "AWD" RX will be even better than the 300C and FWD Odyssey I have now. The 01 X5 was not great in the snow but better than any RWD Bimmer. The Best AWD systems are Audi, Jeep, and Subaru. Newer BMW systems are better than original. Personally I'd take your 300C and a good set of quick install snow chains long before any AWD that is natively FWD as is the 2001 AWD RX300. I just drove mine from Seattle to Dayville OR, luckily no snow that "stucK". But mine has 1.5" wheel spacers all around with 17X8 wheels and wider tires. I always run on summer tires and rely on tire chains, on the rear first and then added to the front if needed. Tire chains cannot be used on the rear of RX series as shipped, thus the 1.5" spacers. The 2001 AWD RX300 is natively front torque boased about 95/5. They use differing final drive ratios in the front vs the rear so the rear wheels are overdriven by about 5% which matters not as long as the center diff'l remains open. Once the VC begins to "lock" the center differential the rear starts to take up the torque "slack", about 75/25 F/R at best. Be careful, the FWD/AWD RX300 can get really dicey on the slippery stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfz219 Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 CanadianDriver.com had a very large comparison of drive systems and snow/all-weather tires. Their conclusion is "it's the tires." They also observed the AWD systems of Mercedes and Toyota Highlander to be their favorite. The AXD Ford Five Hundred was a surprizingly good performer. Components such as ESC and ABS were much more important than coupling systems. To illustrate how our Canadian neighbors value snow tires over AWD systems, look at their review of the BMW325ix. The reviewer would take a 325i with snows over the added weight and complexity of the AWD 325ix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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