Your Thoughts About Fighting Back

[914lps]

Your thoughts on this idea about high gas prices?

http://www.biznetonline.com/11-05/gas.htm

[indiasfinest]

thats smart i hadnt thought of that..interesting if weidely used this should work

[nc211]

Oh man....Now don't get me wrong, I applaud the idea in general...however...it will not work, infact it will backfire based upon the shear economical prinicple of supply and demand and elasticity of economies-of-scale. If the demand to Chevron jumps up from the absorption rate of the fall in demand to BP, then Chevron will face a Supply shortage to meet the current customer demand increase....this will mean Chevron will have to either A) produce more oil, which costs more money to do and ship, which means costs get passed to Chevron pumps...aka...Chevron customers. Or "and most likely" Chevron must go out into the market place and buy more oil to meet it's demand...and which company do you think will be sitting on a stock pile of oil, due to it's fall in demand? BP...aka...the seller to Chevron, for your gas. And if you think BP won't know what's going on and adjust it's "internal" price to Chevron to compensate...think again my friends. BP will level out the playing field and we'll actually be worse off than we are now. What needs to happen is that people need to understand oil is a commodity, and traded like one in the open markets, which for a commodity, price is determined by "futures" which are fueled by "speculation"...aka...rumors of worries beyond normal tolorance. If it were really as bad as they say...would the oil companies being making this much money? No, they'd be falling like stones. We also need to understand the world's oil supply is control by a Cartel...OPEC. Cartel...as in...drug Cartel. Rules don't apply to the open world in a Cartel, and aren't written to obey the rules of an elastic economy. They're written for the sole benefit of the Cartel Members....the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries....OPEC. I hate to say it, but the only way we bust up that Cartel, is to become one....become a thorn in thier side....and what better way to do that than A) Produce more than we need, which means ticking off the enviromentalists "and my fiance'" by tapping Alaska. Or b ) Invade and control one of thier biggest oil production countries? Under the cloud of terrorism threat to human stability. Osama screwed the pooch on 9/11. He didn't scare US away, or make US suffer under his twisted thoughts. He did it to the exact people he claims to be fighting for....by waking up the fearless sleeping GIANT and giving it the green light to FINALLY take off the gloves and fight! For example: Iran...scared sh*tless now that we're sitting right next door on both sides, beaming our spy microphones across the borders at them, with our stealths circling thier eastern and western skylines. I grew up fearing some man named Kuhmanie from Iran back in the late 70's and early 80's. Now? I don't fear him or his country, he fears me and my country.

It's tough now, yes I know. And I won't go into my own personal political beliefs on you guys of what I think is right or wrong. But I will leave you with this thought....In 36 months, who do you think will be seen as Iraq's ally? Them, or US. And who do you think will be first in line for cheap oil from Iraq? Them, or US? It's an ugly thing to say or believe, especially when good guys like ArmyofOne are heading off to the military. But the truth is to be told in time. And in time I believe we will destabalize the OPEC Bubba's so much so that terrorism cannot grow global, and OPEC can no longer blackmail the rest of the world with their oil production. And those pencil pushers on Wall Street will hear a certain Lynyrd Skynyrd song one day on opening bell called "Gimmie Back My Bullets". And the prices will fall to all-time lows. No more "rumors" on future prices. Until the next wave hits and they go up...and come down...go up...and come down. Oil was cheap so many years ago because we obeyed their blackmailing demands. We had no choice back then, we needed to dig out of a recessionary economy in the early 90's. But all bets were cancelled and the table was cleared on 9/11. Prices will get worse, the closer we get to finishing up the war on a victory. It's OPEC squeezing it's last drop....or should I say...taking it's last gasp, before becoming history.

Just my $2 cents. Personally, I like Texaco anyway. ;)

[SRK]

Oil is the worlds single most valuable and most traded commodity. It is bought and sold on international markets, independant of politicians and governments, and special interest groups. Its price is determined by the bids placed on future supplies, in true capitalist and free market fashion.

Too bad so many people want the stuff. That translates as increased demand, and that drives up prices of crude. Low refining capacity drives up the price of diesel and gasoline made with that crude. Double whammy.

If you don't buy the gasoline, someone else will, more than likely at the same price. If lower, well, they buy it and you don't. That's assuming you can lower demand so much that the price drops. Someone else reaps the benefit.

Take solace in that at least half of the OPEC nations cannot agree amongst themselves, are degenerate anyways, and use the oil profits to suppress, control, torture, and otherwise abuse their own citizens, which means we don't have to.

Take Economics 101. It's quite fascinating, and will reveal just how much governments can't do in controlling the price in the face of world markets. They are powerless really.

Remember the fools who shouted "No blood for oil" prior to the Iraq war? Two points. One, going to war for oil is a better reason than most, and certainly better than those used during the twentieth century. It's just that economically it doesn't work that way anymore. Two, when George W. entered Iraq, oil was around $28.00bbl, and today is something above $60.00bbl. I don't think that was his plan, y'know?

[nc211]

yeah, i agree. W' got a little more than he bargained for on just how long this will take. But, time will tell the tale. It'll all level itself out soon enough. Of course, having Blake and Rf's backyards levelled didn't help the situation either. SRK, I think you and I could figure out and write some new econimal fiscal policy

over a 12 pack my friend. ;)

Of course, you'd have to type....My mind goes faster than my fingers.

Oil is the worlds single most valuable and most traded commodity.  It is bought and sold on international markets, independant of politicians and governments, and special interest groups.  Its price is determined by the bids placed on future supplies, in true capitalist and free market fashion.

Too bad so many people want the stuff.  That translates as increased demand, and that drives up prices of crude.  Low refining capacity drives up the price of diesel and gasoline made with that crude.  Double whammy.

If you don't buy the gasoline, someone else will, more than likely at the same price.  If lower, well, they buy it and you don't.  That's assuming you can lower demand so much that the price drops.  Someone else reaps the benefit.

Take solace in that at least half of the OPEC nations cannot agree amongst themselves, are degenerate anyways, and use the oil profits to suppress, control, torture, and otherwise abuse their own citizens, which means we don't have to. 

Take Economics 101.  It's quite fascinating, and will reveal just how much governments can't do in controlling the price in the face of world markets.  They are powerless really.

Remember the fools who shouted "No blood for oil"  prior to the Iraq war?  Two points.  One, going to war for oil is a better reason than most, and certainly better than those used during the twentieth century.  It's just that economically it doesn't work that way anymore. Two, when George W.  entered Iraq, oil was around $28.00bbl, and today is something above $60.00bbl.  I don't think that was his plan, y'know?

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[chrisnisbet]

So how much is a gallon of gas in the U.S? We pay around $5.70 a gallon in N.Z.

[chrisnisbet]

Hmm, that last post or mine was a bit misleading. the cost is $5.70 N.Z., which is about $4.00 U.S.

[bartkat]

$2.15 per gal here today.

[914lps]

I understand the "market" etc. I also understand the record profits the oil companies are making. They get more for the gas, becouse pepole will pay.

If gas in the US was 5.00 gal., most folks would scream like But still buy it becouse we have to, as most cities have no real public transportation.

I also know that most station owners are not getting the benfits of the $$. Most stations make 2 to 5 cents per gallon.

But we are getting riped off becouse they (gas companies) can do it. The Arizona Atty Gen has stated there is no real reason for the cost of gas in Arizoona to be as high as it is, other then, "There is no law against it".

Gas here for Prem is still over $3.00 a gal, at the cheep stations. In Los Angeles it is easy to find it for much less.

3 years ago, gas in L.A. was always at least 50 cents more then here due to the tax dif.

Gas companies are charging what they are becouse the maket will bare it.

This protest is the only why I have seen to make a statement without giving up my car. And for me, stopping my driving is not an option, as I like to earn a living and I need my car to do so......

[SRK]

SRK, I think you and I could figure out and write some new econimal fiscal policy

over a 12 pack my friend.  ;)

Of course, you'd have to type....My mind goes faster than my fingers.

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I agree! But lets buy a two-four of beer and then my mind will be slower than my fingers. If we buy too much beer though, that could increase demand, and therefore the price...... :cries:

[cardona6569]

SRK, I think you and I could figure out and write some new econimal fiscal policy

over a 12 pack my friend.  ;)

Of course, you'd have to type....My mind goes faster than my fingers.

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I agree! But lets buy a two-four of beer and then my mind will be slower than my fingers. If we buy too much beer though, that could increase demand, and therefore the price......:cries:

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Hello wake up!

Even as the price might drop we need to work towards long term solutions.

This is very simple, we have not built a refinery in 20 or 30 years, we need to build some more, even if the states have to do it with their own funds and use inmates to operate them as cheaper labor. We can have all the Petroleum of the world but if we do not have capacity for regining it, it will do not much good.

Second, I am sitting here in PR we have Florida also and California, places were we can grown Sugar Cane, take the juice to make sugar and other products and use the remains to make alcohol, convert our cars to use alcohol or gas like in Brazil and be less dependant on oil, less demmand less price.

Third we need to have the cars modified with generators starter motors, so when we stop on a red light the car stops burning useless fuel. The hydrogen cars also need to be put out of the labs and into the road. Imagine a car that you would fill up with water at night and in the morning be full of fuel. Imagine like John used to sing. A world with less pollution, cheaper enegry and cleaner all at the same time. The people who have us by the legs are the oil companies and the cartels made up by people of not the best reputations.

Fourth, we waste a lot of cooking oil, we could have many cars converted to run on that, specially fleet vehicles, this process along with the bio diessel could be cooperatives from the state and municipal goverments, just for the operating costs, using a variety of sources of employee, from retired, students or even low custody inamates that are about to get out. Think how good it would be if your average high school person could get a job to make part of the expenses helping the gas crunch, making biodiesel as part of a program so he can put his own business later.

In conclusion this is a problem with many legs we need to correct not just one or two but all, and then we will have more money to spend in our Lex cars. My sincere opinion.

C. PR

[SRK]

Here's a quiet wake-up call for you Cardona.

Building new refineries is probably a good idea. Using "inmates" to do so is a form of slave labour, and as this is North America and not communist China, that idea is misplaced.

Ethanol and methanol are not solutions given the daily consumption rate, and they only answer consumption by automobiles, and not other forms of transport, like diesel and jet fuel, and they also depend on arable land, which is best used to feed people.

The "generator-starter motor" you speak of is actually what we now call a "hybrid" and the most reliable ones on the planet are made by - wait for it - Toyota and Lexus.

Presently it cost more money and more energy to split water into oxygen and hydrogen that one will get back when the hydrogen is burned. Unless your favourite movie "Back to the Future" comes true, hydrogen is not an answer.

The amount of cooking oil waste produced daily in North America is about 500,000 gallons, which needs to be compared to a daily consumption of about 75,000,000 gallons of diesel. Unless the daily consumption of fries increases dramatically, I doubt cooking oil (which burns very well in most diesels) offers any kind of solution.

The best short term solution is for folks to stop driving Excursions and Escalades, but if they have the money, and the desire, to pay for fuel, they are well within their rights to do so.

[chrisnisbet]

Hmm, when you guys in the U.S. start paying anything like what we have to pay, I might have a little more sympathy for you. Personally, I'd love to pay as much for my petrol as you do.

Is it the same there as here where most of the cost of the petrol is made up of government taxes etc? In N.Z. I think taxes make up ~70% of the price. Absolutely ridiculous!

[ArmyofOne]

Hmm, when you guys in the U.S. start paying anything like what we have to pay, I might have a little more sympathy for you. Personally, I'd love to pay as much for my petrol as you do.

Is it the same there as here where most of the cost of the petrol is made up of government taxes etc? In N.Z. I think taxes make up ~70% of the price. Absolutely ridiculous!

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Buddy in alaska was paying $4.25 a gallon last i checked. Parents in Dallas are Paying $2.50 and me up here in watertown is paying $3.35 a gallon, and thats on post, where its $.20 cheaper!

[SW03ES]

That didnt work in 2001, and it wont work in 2005. Just an Internet hoax.

[914lps]

I understand the piont evryone is trying to make.

Cheeper in US then other places.

Not a long tirm solution.

More refineries.

Alternative for powering car, etc... Better MPG...

BUT,

Why has evry atterny gen in the USA that has looked into the price of gas, ended up stating it's not right, but legail, as no laws against it.

Exxept Hawie, they have put a cap on the profits that can be made.

And this is my piont... All the oil companies are making major record profits by charging as much as they can for gas....

And they know we have no real options

[razahyde]

im not going to complain gas is $2 here in keller tx and QT even hit 1.90 the other week so thats not bad at all as long as it stays there im satisfied but this ford is really a hassle i hated when gas was 3.40 here

[cardona6569]

Here's a quiet wake-up call for you Cardona.

Building new refineries is probably a good idea.  Using "inmates" to do so is a form of slave labour, and as this is North America and not communist China, that idea is misplaced.

Ethanol and methanol are not solutions given the daily consumption rate, and they only answer consumption by automobiles, and not other forms of transport, like diesel and jet fuel, and they also depend on arable land, which is best used to feed people.

The "generator-starter motor" you speak of is actually what we now call a "hybrid" and the most reliable ones on the planet are made by - wait for it - Toyota and Lexus.

Presently it cost more money and more energy to split water into oxygen and hydrogen that one will get back when the hydrogen is burned.  Unless your favourite movie "Back to the Future" comes true, hydrogen is not an answer.

The amount of cooking oil waste produced daily in North America is about 500,000 gallons, which needs to be compared to a daily consumption of about 75,000,000 gallons of diesel.  Unless the daily consumption of fries increases dramatically, I doubt cooking oil (which burns very well in most diesels) offers any kind of solution.

The best short term solution is for folks to stop driving Excursions and Escalades, but if they have the money, and the desire, to pay for fuel, they are well within their rights to do so.

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Greetings Forum Members and SRK:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/...eadership.shtml

This is an Internet Copy of what I found on my Time Magazine.

I love your critique to my post. But you do not offer any solution but to "stop driving Excursions and Escalades" and agreeing in building more refineries.

The following is from Time Magazine, Sept. 5' 2005 and these words are from a more qualified person the CEO of Chevron, Mr David J. O'Reilly: " David J. O'Reilly

Chairman & CEO Chevron Corporation

Energy will be one of the defining issues of this century. One thing is clear: the era of easy oil is over. What we all do next will determine how well we meet the energy needs of the entire world in this century and beyond.

Demand is soaring like never before. As populations grow and economies take off, millions in the developing world are enjoying the benefits of a lifestyle that requires increasing amounts of energy. In fact, some say that in 20 years the world will consume 40% more oil than it does today. At the same time, many of the world's oil and gas fields are maturing. And new energy discoveries are mainly occurring in places where resources are difficult to extract, physically, economically and even politically. When growing demand meets tighter supplies, the result is more competition for the same resources.

We can wait until a crisis forces us to do something. Or we can commit to working together, and start by asking the tough questions: How do we meet the energy needs of the developing world and those of industrialized nations? What role will renewables and alternative energies play? What is the best way to protect our environment? How do we accelerate our conservation efforts? Whatever actions we take, we must look not just to next year, but to the next 50 years.

At Chevron, we believe that innovation, collaboration and conservation are the cornerstones on which to build this new world. We cannot do this alone. Corporations, governments and every citizen of this planet must be part of the solution as surely as they are part of the problem. We call upon scientists and educators, politicians and policy-makers, environmentalists, leaders of industry and each one of you to be part of reshaping the next era of energy.

Signed,

Dave"

____________________________________________________________________

It will take a lot of changes of attitude, and some adjusting, but I am sure we will get there. The same forces that drive the price up, will drive it down until the oil becomes obsolete just like the rubber crisis in the 60"s. I am an optimist, always will be!

C. PR

[SRK]

I thought you didn't like people like "Dave" who run large oil companies? In any event Dave is spewing the kind of platitudinous nonsense that is typical of those in elevated corporate positions.

"One of the defining issues"? Really. It IS the defining issue, and it's not a North American concern - it is in Asia that this concern becomes truly staggering. When the Chinese begin to fully industrialize, and they are well on the way, we are all in trouble. They may not invoke the strict emission laws that are an American invention. They may not have corporate average fuel economy regulations. And so on.

If I didn't offer a solution that pleases you it is because the solution is obvious. Stop using crude oil at such a prodigious rate. Achieving that will be difficult, not just because people insist on driving fuel inefficient vehicles in North America (understand that this is the only continent where an Escalade or Excursion is an option- you won't see any elsewhere), but also because other nations are going to insist on having any kind of vehicle for the first time.

It would ne nice to point at an alternative energy source and say "that's the answer". Dave, who should be in the know on that issue, avoids saying anything other than "we must all work together". Great. He should write folk songs.

My real issue is with finger-pointing, misguided admonitions, and ill-informed opinions on what constitutes "solutions". Not hydrogen, not diesels, not bio-mass, not slave labour.

The internal combustion engine is the single most important and defining technology the world has ever seen. We are all slaves to it, willing or unwilling. To eliminate it from our lives is unthinkable, and to change its energy source is nearly impossible.

As Hunter S. Thompson said, "What about the doomed?" Little did he know that he was speaking of all of us......