markatty Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 The New York Times has an article about Toyota's effort to sell 10% hybrids and once again repeats its disparaging remarks about the poor fuel mileage on what the article calls "muscle" hybrids. Those folks at the NYT really don't like hybrids. :P I've yet to see a positive article from them, which given its generally liberal slant is surprising. At the same time, some American drivers are wary of paying as much as $5,000 more for a hybrid that may not be a great fuel saver.As a result, Toyota is fine-tuning its use of the word hybrid. "We are not marketing them only as highly fuel-efficient vehicles; that is a natural association people have with the word hybrid," Mr. Nolasco said, referring largely to the Highlander and the Lexus. "We are marketing hybrid synergy drive - great environmental performance and, at the same time, great driving performance."In early August, California regulators started to distinguish between fuel-efficient hybrids and "muscle" hybrids, the high-powered versions that save little gasoline. Of the seven hybrid models now on sale in the United States, owners of the Honda Civic, Honda Insight and Toyota Prius can qualify for decals allowing them to drive alone, rather than with two or more passengers, in highway commuter lanes. That reward is not extended to four hybrids not rated as exceptional energy savers: Honda Accord, Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX 400h. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/business...brid.html?8hpib Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katzjamr Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Thank you for the article, i agree it shows their bias again. My previous SUV averaged 15 mpg, my 400h 26 to 28. I agree the Times is very biased on this issue. Last time i complained not much happened. This article seems to be written by one of their reporters, perhaps i can get a response from him. Also it was interesting to see that Nissan is using toytoa technology in the altima. While it makes sense for them to not reinvent the wheel, and infact Toyota has the patents anyway, I dont think Nissan will get the newest and best version of the hybrid drive, certainly Ford didnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Biased....?? NOT! Do we know where gas prices are headed? I cannot believe any sort of demographical research indicated that there was a substantial market for high perfromance SUVs. But what I continue to believe is that Toyota somehow, in some way, boxed themselves into a corner. When the RX400h was initially announced I was so enthusiastic that I went directly to the dealer to put down a deposit. Then the production delays started being announced. After the third one I cancelled my preorder. Why was the atkinson cycle, possibly yielding as much as another 20% in fuel economy, not used in the RX400h? Why is the city fuel economy, while quite good, not better than hwy, as indicated by the EPA estimates? Did Toyota discover, during the R&D phase, that the hybrid synergy drive as implemented in the Prius could not be scaled up to the level required for an RX238? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katzjamr Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Regarding the price of gas: most refineries are running at capacity, world demand is only increasing, i.e. china and india, our consumption only grows and we are not conserving nearly enough. Many experts feel known reserves are peaking, there isnt any more meaningful new oil out there, and exactly how much oil is left in the mideast is not a published figure, and what is published about their reserves is probably exaggerated. There have been no new domestic refineries built in the last twenty years. Technological advances have helped us before, we dont know if there is another rabbit to be pulled out of a hat to squeeze more oil out of the ground. The small blip in production that resulted from the gulf hurricane caused gas shortages and overnight increases. Yes higher gas makes alternatives more viable. (wwest im still waiting for you to develop an extra lithium battery pack for the back of my 400h to extend battery power and mpg as some entrepreneurs have for the Prius) As far as the 400h i think Lexus tried to make an educated guess as to what would be the best tradeoff for people who buy the Lexus brand regarding options and mpg. They are taking baby steps. Your 400h was delayed so that they could work out the bugs, and at the last minute a serious battery shortage developed. (according to my salesman). What is important is Hybrid Synergy drive works, its been reliable so far and i think you will see the camry and toyota truck hybrids skewed to more economy. In the future, i think you will see some dashboard options that will allow you to dial in fuel economy versus power. Those of us who bit the bullet now help to ensure the next generation of hybrids are only better and more efficient. Its easy for the NYT to critcize, Toyota put almost 900 million in R and D into real world products. For those of us who have to drive for a living, there are not many other options out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCB Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 My last SUV, a Jeep V6, consistently got 15-17mpg. I'm getting over 25 now, with MUCH MUCH MUCH more power. Signed, Completely Satisfied New Lexus Owner :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markatty Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 BMW, GM and Chrysler joining together to develop hybrid http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/business...ess/08auto.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX400h Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Biased....??NOT! Do we know where gas prices are headed? I cannot believe any sort of demographical research indicated that there was a substantial market for high perfromance SUVs. But what I continue to believe is that Toyota somehow, in some way, boxed themselves into a corner. When the RX400h was initially announced I was so enthusiastic that I went directly to the dealer to put down a deposit. Then the production delays started being announced. After the third one I cancelled my preorder. Why was the atkinson cycle, possibly yielding as much as another 20% in fuel economy, not used in the RX400h? Why is the city fuel economy, while quite good, not better than hwy, as indicated by the EPA estimates? Did Toyota discover, during the R&D phase, that the hybrid synergy drive as implemented in the Prius could not be scaled up to the level required for an RX238? ← America's thirst for power has increased rapidly over the years. Why else would Crysler come out with a 425 HP sedan? I can't even cout the number of vehicles that now have over 300 HP, can you? Heck, the new Corvette Z06 cranks out 505 HP and gets 28 MPG on the highway! Believe me, the Rx400h and Hylander hybrids crush the wimpy Ford Escape hybrid in sales, even at their much higher prices. The 25 MPG we average in our RX400h matches that of a Camry 4 cylinder and beats many smaller and much lighter vehicle's real-world mileage figures. The icing, of course, is the 650 lbs-ft of torque - gotta love it! BTW, Consumer reports achieved a paltry 12 MPG in a new Honda Odysey van recently while driving their city cycle. I'll take the RX400h any day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markatty Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 The New York Times had three interesting articles that are hybrid related. On the celebrity side, Prince Albert of Monaco when he is not fathering children http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/arts/AP-Mo...nce-Albert.html drives a Lexus hybrid http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/internat...e/10albert.html. E85 a fuel available primarily in corn country, that is 85% ethanol is now selling for 50 cents less than regular gas http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/business...tive.html?8hpib Anyone know if you can drive 400 on E85? Oil may or may not be running out. I tend to side with the economists on this one and think, price will bring supply and demand in line. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/business/10nocera.html, but my brother the petroleum consultant says finding a lot of big new fields is unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markatty Posted September 10, 2005 Author Share Posted September 10, 2005 Mercedes Diesel Beats RX-400 on coast to coast run http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...ternative+fuels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katzjamr Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Interesting article, im sure the 400h beat the diesel in emissions and power. Is that ML320 diesel available in the us? Will it pass tier two emission standards in 2007. I am encouraged to see the growing availability of biodiesel in the Pacific Northwest, whether it is made in a garage from waste fry oil or commercially from plant based oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX400h Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Mercedes Diesel Beats RX-400 on coast to coast runhttp://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...ternative+fuels ← "In a recent 5,200 kilometre coast-to-coast trip conducted by Germany's Auto Bild newspaper in the U.S. a Mercedes ML 320 CDI diesel beat a hybrid Lexus RX 400 H. The Mercedes diesel averaged a consumption of 9.1 litres per 100 kilometres while the Lexus Hybrid recorded a fuel consumption of 10.2 litres. " As you can see, the test was conducted by a German magazine and favored highway driving. Passenger car diesels are all but dead here in the US - no surprise, given diesel fuel's $.20 greater cost per gallon than even regular unleaded gas. Toyota caught the Germans flat-footed, so the Germans must try to defend themselves in some way, shape or form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron O Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Mercedes Diesel Beats RX-400 on coast to coast runhttp://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...ternative+fuels ← Did you ever smell your hands, clothes, shoes after filling a tank of diesel ? I have had 3 diesels -- 2 GMs and one Mecedes turbo. I wouldn't buy another unless there were compelling reasons. Like 300+ HP performance and 35+ MPG. I love the 400H (for the time now) and I have been a car nut since I was a kid ( a long time ago) www.ronovers.com :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markatty Posted September 15, 2005 Author Share Posted September 15, 2005 Germans play catch-up on hybrids http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=...rticleid=250917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katzjamr Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 The europeans ( did you ever hear the old joke: "If you are American when you are outside the bathroom, what are you when you are in the bathroom? European.") are being dragged into hybrids reluctantly by Toyota. They would much rather sell their diesels. Is it just me or did the NYT find another way to dis hybrids with the tone of that article, basically saying the hybrid technology doesnt produce enough mpg. At the same time they did carry a piece in the automotive section quoting Toyota officials wanting to ramp up hybrid production to 300,000 units a year in three to five years. They backed off on that figure to 250,000 citing battery availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markatty Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 NY Times vendetta is now official For some reason the NY Times is going out of its way to disparage hybrids. The latest attempt is entitled "Wary of High-Voltage Batteries, Rescuers Study Up on Hybrids" and is all about firemen being scared to rescue someone in a hybrid, since it might have unintended acceleration or they might get electrocuted. The problem is that this problem has never happened. The quaking firemen say it hasn't happened, Toyota says it hasn't happened, but the NY Times thinks this problem is so serious that it rates the front page of the Sunday automotive section. For conclusive proof of how this is just a trap for any unsuspecting fireman on the continuation of the story on the inside of paper they show a hybrid Accord and gas only Accord - YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE; absolutely shocking :o Now I admit that there is a reason to be concerned. (I still want to know what would have happened to the guy in my high school who parked on a boat launch ramp with his girlfriend on a moon-lit night and three hours later found his engine underwater and the floor of car awash, if he had happened to be in a 400h?) Its the promenience and repetitive negative nature of the NYT stories that makes me say this is slanted reporting. The story deserved two inches on an inside page not front page, Sunday supplement coverage with photos. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/automobiles/18HYBRID.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexmiami Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 NY Times vendetta is now official The once top rated NY Times has sunk to a newspaper that prints stories and opinions that lack credibility with little or no facts to back them up. Sad commentary on a once proud and respected news organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katzjamr Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I agree rex, their articles are biased. I used to hold them in higher regard but this has opened my eyes. Perhaps i just had them on too high a pedestal. Good to have a reality check i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
400h4me Posted September 22, 2005 Share Posted September 22, 2005 My last SUV, a Jeep V6, consistently got 15-17mpg. I'm getting over 25 now, with MUCH MUCH MUCH more power. Signed, Completely Satisfied New Lexus Owner :) ← My wife's Explorer SUV gets 19 mpg. A friends RX300 get 16-17mpg and the neighbors RX330 gets average 19mpg. We just took delivery on our 400h and averaged 26.7 on the frist tank of gas. I was very pleased with this improvement in gas mileage. I guess it will only get better after the break-in period! So far very happy and surprised about the gas mileage. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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