Ford: They Don't Make The Taurus Anymore?

[monarch]

Why would they advertise improved

reliability/durability/resale?? That would insinuate that their quality/dur/resale was not so hot to begin with. Sounds like a marketing disaster waiting to happen.

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To win back a portion of the legions of buyers that switched to the Japanese cars during the 70's, 80's and 90's. Current Japansese car owners aren't going to buy many Ford 500's or Malibu's just because they now ride and handle as nicely as a Camry. But winning ex-American car owners back does not appear to be their goal anyway and may even be economically impossible; i.e. it might be cost prohibitive for the American car makers to use the top grades of metal, plastic, rubber, paint. etc the Japanese use and match the assembly tolerances of the Japanese. A couple practical examples: it might be cost prohibitive for the American car makers to build 175,000 mile water pumps, alternators, or 300,000+ mile AC compressors, ignition systems, fuel systems, sag proof seats, etc.

[blake918]

Everyone doesn't hate Ford though, and who would want to buy a car form a manufacture who admits to having a bad past? What makes them legit now? People who hate Ford will likely never change their ways regardless of a marketing slogan stating the new 500 is leaps and bounds ahead in reliability/durability/resale.

[JimmyD]

What do you define as normal maintinance? 0 problems is very hard to believe...

I get that all the time. I've had the regular done (water pump, timing belt...) but no engine problems, tranny rpoblems or any issue having to do with the fit and finish of the car, although with a car of that mileage, I do think theres bound to be something on the horizon. Like I said, I just had the car for several years now but it has been in the family. No transmission problems, no AC problems, none of that, which plagues Ford's.

100% true that in 4 years of owning it, it hasn't given me any trouble. I don't know how everyone else with an 92-96 Camry is doing, but from my experience it has been nothing short of rock solid. In fact if I were to get another car right now, I would try to find a lower mileage mint condition model of these same Camry's.

How can you write something like that and continue to run Ford straight in to the ground? In my mind (and from the above quote, yours too.), getting a reliable car is akin to placing a bet on your favorite roulette number/color. Your odds maybe better with one mark over another, but odds are never a sure thing regardless of the make.

Well, I think magazines that rate customer satisfaction, problems reported and quality agree with me. Mass production does produce products that may not represent a company. But Ford has problems written all over it. It's not only mine, but several people on this thread, as well as the Ford boards as well. It is well documented about the problems that Fords have.

[SW03ES]

As it is well documented the problems Toyotas and Lexus' have.

A couple practical examples: it might be cost prohibitive for the American car makers to build 175,000 mile water pumps, alternators, or 300,000+ mile AC compressors, ignition systems, fuel systems, sag proof seats, etc.

You're always quoting these rediculous mileage lifetimes for these parts, you have to realize thats meaningless. Real world figures ALL OVER this board deliver far shorter lives for these parts. For instance, you know that one warranty claim on my dad's 98 LS? A/C compressor at 40k or so. Sag proof seats? People post all the time about busted seats in Lexus vehicles. My Explorer has about 175k on it now...on the same water pump...

Paper mileage figures are meaningless when it comes to the real world.

As for Toyota and top grades of metal, I've spent almost $1000 on ding repair on my Lexus because the metal is so thin and dings so easily. Money spent on the Explorer for ding repair? $0. The Explorer has MUCH thicker and heavier metal. Paint? Look at all the issues people are having here with chipping and scratching paint (granted thats because of VOC requirements).

[blake918]

What do you define as normal maintinance? 0 problems is very hard to believe...

no engine problems, tranny rpoblems or any issue having to do with the fit and finish of the car

That's still pretty vauge. Just becasue the engine and trans have been trouble free there is still a lot of other things to break. My friend's '95 has had several problems such as ecu failure, multiple O2 sensor failure, and extensive front suspension problems...pretty sobering on a car that's driven 8k a year!

Well, I think magazines that rate customer satisfaction, problems reported and quality agree with me.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that. The GS line-up was beat by Lincoln who we all know is owned by Ford MoCo. Note all of the Ford and GM products that made the list:

Message boards can hardly be accepted as an accurate depiction of a model of car.

[JimmyD]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a car guy. I can't give any details unless my mechanic fixed up a bunch of issues that I wasn't aware of for free because I'd have to go back and dig them out. but if you don't believe it, you are welcomed to come check it out yourself :)

Regardless of which car is more reliable than the other, I think if your Explorer has done you good, you're more than likely to try out another Explorer, just like I will do to the Camry name.

and that's just 1 survey. Can you dig up the one where there's a bar graph on customer satisfaction? And I also think it's a little silly to compare a car's dependability when at least 5 years haven't passed on a particular bodystyle/platform. And I'm talking about a car company's overall line, not just a few cars. For example, Buick has high satisfaction rates by another GM brand might have the poorest.

I also believe that Ford CAN make a good reliable car if they wanted to. They CAN make a car every bit as good and reliable as a Toyota. I don't think you can be clueless enough not to after being in the industry for over a century. I don't know if it's cost cutting or what is that that stops them from doing so, so far.

edit and my friend blake918, I am very proud of my car. If you don't believe it and can make it to California one day, I will be more than willing to show you the car and let you take it out for a spin. It drives exceptional for a 10 year old car, for whatever mileage. And we could even sit back and talk about cars!

= transportation not provided :D

[SW03ES]

I also believe that Ford CAN make a good reliable car if they wanted to. They CAN make a car every bit as good and reliable as a Toyota. I don't think you can be clueless enough not to after being in the industry for over a century. I don't know if it's cost cutting or what is that that stops them from doing so, so far.

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If you really believe that though, then why are you so quick to say the Ford 500 is not an excellent vehicle when you've not even driven one...

[LexKid630]

I also believe that Ford CAN make a good reliable car if they wanted to. They CAN make a car every bit as good and reliable as a Toyota. I don't think you can be clueless enough not to after being in the industry for over a century. I don't know if it's cost cutting or what is that that stops them from doing so, so far.

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If you really believe that though, then why are you so quick to say the Ford 500 is not an excellent vehicle when you've not even driven one...

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i think for some (including me, i must admit) it's hard to believe that a car company that has been making unreliable cars for almost 100 years has suddenly made a car that is reliable.

but we must remember that when toyota first came out, they were junkmobiles. They were a laughing stock!! now look!! All it takes is a few years...

I can't say that the 500 is a bad car, since i have never actually driven one. I just can't "believe" it..well i mean it's "hard" for me to believe....

[SW03ES]

How on earth can you say Ford has been making unreliable cars for 100 years? Who told you BS like that? Ford INVENTED the car as we know it today, as a mass produced product availiable to everyone. The Japanese got a foothold by making vehicles that were more fuel efficient and coupled with people like Ralph Nader and his ego sent the American car industry into a downfall. People bought Toyotas because they "couldn't afford not to" not because they were unhappy in American cars.

Much of the Ford unreliability is all modern myth anyways, look at those JD Power dependability studies. Ford may not make a vehicle as high quality as some other companies but they do make a solid vehicle.

[LexKid630]

How on earth can you say Ford has been making unreliable cars for 100 years? Who told you BS like that? Ford INVENTED the car as we know it today, as a mass produced product availiable to everyone. The Japanese got a foothold by making vehicles that were more fuel efficient and coupled with people like Ralph Nader and his ego sent the American car industry into a downfall. People bought Toyotas because they "couldn't afford not to" not because they were unhappy in American cars.

Much of the Ford unreliability is all modern myth anyways, look at those JD Power dependability studies. Ford may not make a vehicle as high quality as some other companies but they do make a solid vehicle.

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..(overall) Fords are not as reliable as NON-American cars...a true statement...even though ford was the first, they are still (well before the 500 maybe) not making their cars as well as Non-American car makers are now. compared to other car makers...the reliability ratings for Ford (which might seem good for few) aren't that good. They really havent improved much, so what makes me believe they will now? That was what i meant...I have many family members and friends that unfortunately own fords, and have heard nothing but bad things about them.

[LexKid630]

..but like i said, i have never "owned" a ford, and hevent driven the 500 yet..so i don't really know if it's a great reliable car...That's why i can't say that i'm "sure" the 500 is a bad car. I can only assume based on ford's past.

[SW03ES]

Again, what knowledge or experience in the automotive field or factual data do you have to back that up, other than just what you've been told by other people?

Again, look at that study, thats 5 year dependability. Out of 19 categories American carmakers won 13. Thats 69%. Ford specifically won 5 categories.

How many did Toyota win? 4.

Also keep in mind NONE of the winners, for any American carmaker, were their latest and greatest models. They were all pretty old and some of them have even since been replaced.

THOSE are facts. Thats statistical data.

[SW03ES]

You've never owned a Ford?

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=106445

[blake918]

..but like i said, i have never "owned" a ford, and hevent driven the 500 yet..so i don't really know if it's a great reliable car...That's why i can't say that i'm "sure" the 500 is a bad car. I can only assume based on ford's past.

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That's what I love about Ford horror stories...they're all this relative's Focus is being flatbeded here and my coworker's Expedition has been in the shop 6 of the 7 weeks she's owned it. Buy one, they're not all they're cracked up to be by those friends and relatives, and we've had several that have been just as reliable as our Lexus cars.

[LexKid630]

Again, what knowledge or experience in the automotive field or factual data do you have to back that up, other than just what you've been told by other people?

Again, look at that study, thats 5 year dependability. Out of 19 categories American carmakers won 13. Thats 69%. Ford specifically won 5 categories.

How many did Toyota win? 4.

Also keep in mind NONE of the winners, for any American carmaker, were their latest and greatest models. They were all pretty old and some of them have even since been replaced.

THOSE are facts. Thats statistical data.

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I have to admit you are right! I don't have any "factual" data except for my (well other people's) actual experimental data "aka" owning a Ford and witnessing it break down and/or die in their driveways.

for some reason i had the idea in my head that Ford's were somewhat less reliable than other car manufactures...

[LexKid630]

You've never owned a Ford?

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...ndpost&p=106445

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I didn't "own" the Explorer, i just had it when my wife's mother passed away. That thing didn't last a week in my garage. At the time the last garage was open so we left it there before we decided on what the family wanted to do with it... That is why i stated i never "owned" a Ford.

It was nice having the extra garages; you suddenly became a parking garage LOL :P I've had quite a few different cars in my garage LOL

[JimmyD]

Another reason I won't buy a Ford is the resale value. I don't know about the other models, but last time I checked, the Camry retains more value than it's Ford and Chevy or Dodge counterpart. And the Tacoma completely wipes the floor with the Ranger and S10 in resale value. All new cars may lose their value, but American cars lose it more than any other car. With their questionable past combined with that fact, I don't blame anyone who walks away from an American car company. That's just on top of everything that has been discussed on this thread.

2003 Ford Ranger supercab 4wd w/25k miles = $21,855

2003 Toyota Tacoma of similar equipment = $24,775

and the Tacoma just came out with a new bodystyle, so it's value may have just taken a dive.

2003 Ford Focus LX loaded w/25k miles = $11,590

2003 Corolla LE fully loaded w/25k miles = $15,590

2003 Ford Expedition Eddie Bauer w/25k miles = $30,630

2003 Toyota Sequioa Limited with same equipment = $36,355

[monarch]

For 40+ years Consumer Reports has been providing up to 8 years of dependability records for the individual mechanical componets of cars. In other words, CR provides data how reliable the engines, transmissions, ignition systems, fuel systems, air conditioners, etc have been after 1-8 years of operation.

Anyone who examines this data will see that since the mid-1970's, the component reliability of Toyota / Honda / Nissan / Subaru has been far ahead of any American car brand especially after 6 - 8 years of service.

Since roughly the mid-1990's the American car makers have improved componet reliability during the first 4 years of operation, but they still lag far behind the Japanese after 5-8 years of operation. Hence it is not surprizing to me the resale value of Toyota / Honda / Nissan / Subaru is better than comparable American cars.

I will post pictures of the CR data in the not too distant future, but I can't right now as I am having to travel frequently on out of town on business trips.

[SW03ES]

for some reason i had the idea in my head that Ford's were somewhat less reliable than other car manufactures...

You've just heard people say it around you.

Another reason I won't buy a Ford is the resale value. I don't know about the other models, but last time I checked, the Camry retains more value than it's Ford and Chevy or Dodge counterpart. And the Tacoma completely wipes the floor with the Ranger and S10 in resale value. All new cars may lose their value, but American cars lose it more than any other car. With their questionable past combined with that fact, I don't blame anyone who walks away from an American car company. That's just on top of everything that has been discussed on this thread.

Thats not actually true its just a trick of the numbers. Take a Taurus and a Camry for instance. Okay, the Taurus and Camry have comparable MSRP prices and on first glance it looks like the Camry holds its value better after 3-5 years. The reason for this is that the Taurus was actually significantly less expensive when it was new because of all the factory to dealer incentives out there for it compared to the Camry. The Taurus was probably $3-5k cheaper than a comparable Camry. You have to take that into effect when you look at the resale values down the road because right off the bat the car is worth 10% or so less than the lowest price anyone would pay for a new one. When you look at it that way the Taurus' resale isn't any worse than the Camry's. When you look at the figures you posted there it makes sense as all those Ford models are significantly cheaper to buy than those Toyota models.

Everyone always compares the resale to the MSRP price when it really needs to be compared to the price consumers pay.

Another reason for it is the amount of fleet sales Ford had been doing with a lot of its models. A huge influx of low quality 3 year old cars from rental fleets hurts the resale of the whole model. Again, that will change as Ford moves away from fleet sales.

Trust me, that will change.

For 40+ years Consumer Reports has been providing up to 8 years of dependability records for the individual mechanical componets of cars. In other words, CR provides data how reliable the engines, transmissions, ignition systems, fuel systems, air conditioners, etc have been after 1-8 years of operation.

I don't pay attention to Consumer Reports and I'll tell you why. Consumer Reports data comes from Consumer Reports subscribers. Thats a biased data pool considering that a certain type of person subscribes to Consumer Reports and it taints their findings. JD Power is a much more balanced source even if they don't keep data in as comprehensive a form as Consumer Reports.

[monarch]

I don't pay attention to Consumer Reports and I'll tell you why. Consumer Reports data comes from Consumer Reports subscribers. Thats a biased data pool considering that a certain type of person subscribes to Consumer Reports and it taints their findings.

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I've noticed you also don't appear to agree with the fuel economy measurements reported by Consumer Report's. CR has reported the V6 ES300/330 always gets significantly better gas mileage than the V8 LS400/430, both in the city & highway, but yesturday you wrote: "What always amazes me about the LS is how much better the mileage is than the ES even though the ES is lighter and has a smaller engine. I'm lucky to get 18mpg."

The reason I don't agree with you that "a certain type of person subscribes to Consumer Reports and it taints their findings" is because when Chevrolet put Chevy Nova, Chevy Prism or Geo Prism name badges on the 1985 - late 1990's Toyota Corolla, the CR component reliability data for the Nova/Prism shot up to the levels of the Corolla and soared way above any other Chevrolet model. Same phenomenon happened in 1989 when Ford began putting Mercury Tracer badges on the Mazda 323.

[SW03ES]

Why would I value the experiences of consumer reports over my own experiences with fuel mileage? I dont get any better than 18/19MPG. Thats a fact and thats not wrong. I have significant experience with the LS model both the 400 and 430 and get better mileage when I drive them. There are dozens of other posts on this board saying the same thing, that LS owners are getting better mileage than ES owners. I can think of two members getting 15MPG with their current model ES vehicles, Lexus changed the engine in 2004 to try and fix the lousy fuel economy.

What you're saying doesn't lend any more credence to Consumer Reports, its still only inclusive of its members and its still biased. Its about as fair as saying this forum is an accurate representation of experiences common owners have with their Lexus, its not. Look at the RX300, consumer reports say the transmission is fine when overwhelmingly owners here say its not. Who'se right? Both groups have a bias. Obviously the truth is somewhere in between them.

You don't seem to at all value expertise or experience over statistics and the reporting from carmakers about their own products, but these things are valid and they do have a place in a discussion like this. Almost seems to me the only person you trust for an objective description of a vehicle is the guy who made it, who is exactly who you shouldn't trust. The only outside opinions or data you believe are the ones that agree with the carmaker's descriptions of their own vehicles. Kind of makes you a sucker, no offense intended.

[jeremyquinn]

Well...I'd like to share my story and experiences.

I'm 28 yrs old and grew up with Ford everything. My gradfather worked at a Ford dealership and would drive home the classics so my dad got hooked. I would go to the races with my dad...he is a good friend of the owners of Steeda...we would travel to the Mustang shows and races...etc etc. Me being a loyal guy wanted to go the same route. I wanted to at least buy American!

Well...the year was 1996 and I was 18 years old and a E1 in the Navy. I could only afford to purchase a 1998 Chevy Beretta (I had 1 day to find a car and it was the best I could find for the money...it was financed). It only had 60k miles on it. It ran great until about 95k and all kinds of stuff started to go on it. I traded it in for a 1996 Nissan Altima with 20k on it (I bought this in 1998). I still have this car sitting in my driveway with 169k and I HAVE NOT DONE 1 THING to it except change the oil, tuneup and brakes.

My best friend bought a 1992 Camry with 90k on it in 1999. He still has that car. It currently has 209k on it and he treats it like crap. He floors it every where he goes....I just recently told him that he is supposed to put more than 4 qts of oil in the motor when he does his oil changes. He was like really? I was like yeah!! You have a V6...it takes more oil!! He had been doing that for years and this car still just keeps going!!

That sold me on Toyota. Last week I bought a 1994 GS300 with 84k on it and one owner. Last year I bought my wife a 05 Corolla. I believe both of these cars with get 250k. I'm one to be fascinated with high mileage and I always ask people how many mile they have on their car. I've not really heard of too many high mileage American cars.

I do believe Ford and GM might be building better cars right now, but I won't buy one until I start to see them get high mileage. They took years to ruin their reputation with me...and it will take years to build it. I would like to buy an American car for daily transportation...and I will....as soon as they are on par with the Asian cars.

P.S. I have a special place in my heart for the Mustangs though!! I will get one on day...but not for daily driver.

[LexKid630]

I do believe Ford and GM might be building better cars right now, but I won't buy one until I start to see them get high mileage.  They took years to ruin their reputation with me...and it will take years to build it.  I would like to buy an American car for daily transportation...and I will....as soon as they are on par with the Asian cars.

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I couldn't have said it better!

[jeremyquinn]

Oh yeah...I forgot to include in my story....

my wife (girlfriend at the time) bought a 1995 Ford Escort with only 50k miles on it. It took a crap at 118k. Something very serious broke in the engine and wasn't repairable.

118k!! We always took great care of the car. I called a few mechs to see if they could fix it....they asked what happened and I told them....they all said the same thing....more or less...that engine is known for this problem.

So for now I will stick with our GS 300, Corolla and the Altima.

[monarch]

Why would I value the experiences of consumer reports over my own experiences with fuel mileage? You don't seem to at all value expertise or experience over statistics and the reporting from carmakers about their own products

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Consumer Reports measures fuel economy directly and has been doing so for more than 40 years. The EPA measures fuel economy less directly, but also reports the ES gets better gas mileage than the LS both in the city and highway, not just in the model year 2005, but every model year going back to the early 1990's. CR and the EPA have graduate degreed scientists working for them and decades of experience measuring / calculating fuel economy. I personally don't think it's reasonable to think both CR and the EPA scientists could be wrong when they both independently found the ES consistently gets significantly better fuel economy than the LS, not just in one model year, but for the past 10+ consecutive model years.