K & N Air Filters

[jragosta]

OK, then to cut this short.....you continue using your aftermarket filter, and I'll continue using an OEM filter. I sorta trust what the engineers at Toyota figured what would be the best balance in air filtration.   :)

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Dosen't Toyota (TRD) also offer a K & N type of re-usable air filter? B) ;) You can check it out at www.trdusa.com :whistles: Not sure of the prices however. ;)

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That doesn't look like a Toyota filter. TRD appears to be a third party selling non-OEM parts.

[bartkat]

OK, then to cut this short.....you continue using your aftermarket filter, and I'll continue using an OEM filter. I sorta trust what the engineers at Toyota figured what would be the best balance in air filtration.  :)

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Dosen't Toyota (TRD) also offer a K & N type of re-usable air filter? B) ;) You can check it out at www.trdusa.com :whistles: Not sure of the prices however. ;)

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That doesn't look like a Toyota filter. TRD appears to be a third party selling non-OEM parts.

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From the racetrack to the street, Toyota Racing Development (TRD) U.S.A., Inc. plays a key role in providing Toyota with an enhanced performance image. A subsidiary of Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., TRD designs and builds Toyota racing engines in addition to building and marketing performance aftermarket parts for many Toyota vehicles.

http://www.trdusa.com/companyinfo.asp

[steviej]

Lexusfreak, I read somewhere that K&N makes the TRD filter.

steviej

[Lexusfreak]

OK, then to cut this short.....you continue using your aftermarket filter, and I'll continue using an OEM filter. I sorta trust what the engineers at Toyota figured what would be the best balance in air filtration.   :)

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Dosen't Toyota (TRD) also offer a K & N type of re-usable air filter? B) ;) You can check it out at www.trdusa.com :whistles: Not sure of the prices however. ;)

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The price is: $54.21 !!!

For that amount I can buy enough OEM filters to travel about 50K + miles. :D

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The TRD oil filter (and the K & N for that matter) don't need to be re-oiled under 'normal' driving conditions for 50k miles as it is........ :whistles:

[Lexusfreak]

Lexusfreak, I read somewhere that K&N makes the TRD filter.

steviej

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That makes me feel good steviej......If it's good enough to wear the Toyota name. B)

[jragosta]

OK, then to cut this short.....you continue using your aftermarket filter, and I'll continue using an OEM filter. I sorta trust what the engineers at Toyota figured what would be the best balance in air filtration.   :)

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Dosen't Toyota (TRD) also offer a K & N type of re-usable air filter? B) ;) You can check it out at www.trdusa.com :whistles: Not sure of the prices however. ;)

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That doesn't look like a Toyota filter. TRD appears to be a third party selling non-OEM parts.

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From the racetrack to the street, Toyota Racing Development (TRD) U.S.A., Inc. plays a key role in providing Toyota with an enhanced performance image. A subsidiary of Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., TRD designs and builds Toyota racing engines in addition to building and marketing performance aftermarket parts for many Toyota vehicles.

http://www.trdusa.com/companyinfo.asp

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OK. My mistake. It IS a Toyota filter, but it's designed for racing, not for street use.

A filter designed for racing engines is not likely to be suitable for private use. You trade off particle retention with air flow. On a racing engine, air flow is much, much more important - since a few percent HP gain could make all the difference in the world. Also, the engine isn't likely to last long, so a small amount of extra particles might not matter as much.

For the home user, the opposite is true. Longer engine life is far, far more important than a couple percent more HP.

[Lexusfreak]

I've never had any bad experences (bad sensors etc) with any K & N filter I have used.......also I have noticed my engine oil appears to stay cleaner longer than with conventional paper filters. I doubt any engine damage is or has occured since 2 trips to & from Florida, I got over 500 miles on a tank of gas on mor than 1 occasion. ;)

[jragosta]

I've never had any bad experences (bad sensors etc) with any K & N filter I have used.......also I have noticed my engine oil appears to stay cleaner longer than with conventional paper filters.  I doubt any engine damage is or has occured since 2 trips to & from Florida, I got over 500 miles on a tank of gas on mor than 1 occasion.    ;)

 

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Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

[bartkat]

Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

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I would suggest that statements such as those above would require the presentation of some valid statistical data from a reliable and disinterested source.

[amf1932]

Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

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I would suggest that statements such as those above would require the presentation of some valid statistical data from a reliable and disinterested source.

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I agree with jragosta statements! ;)

[mburnickas]

Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

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I would suggest that statements such as those above would require the presentation of some valid statistical data from a reliable and disinterested source.

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I agree with jragosta statements! ;)

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http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

http://www.bolhuijo.com/airflowtest/index.html

[bartkat]

So if you're driving in a dust storm with dust hitting your filter at 9.8 gm/min, the Delco filter will last 60 minutes, or you have to clean your K&N filter every 7 minutes. That's interesting. I'm going to run down to the garage and put my OEM filter back in before the dust strom hits. :D

[mburnickas]

So if  you're driving in a dust storm with dust hitting your filter at 9.8 gm/min, the Delco  filter will last 60 minutes, or you have to clean your K&N filter every 7 minutes. That's interesting.  I'm going to run down to the garage and put my OEM filter back in before the dust strom hits.  :D

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I provided the links for FYI and am not getting involved. I do not use a K&N (or any oil glazzed) & never will based on past usage.

This debate is like Ford vs Chevy, gas vs diesel, dino vs synthetic....

[jragosta]

Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

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I would suggest that statements such as those above would require the presentation of some valid statistical data from a reliable and disinterested source.

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I've already explained my credentials for making that statement PhD in chemistry and years running the R&D group of an industrial filtration company.

I've read the K&N site and reviewed the 'data' they presented there.

The design of the K&N filter is flawed for its intended purpose.

[bartkat]

When I was recommending filter media for R&D or production, I can't remember ever making a proposal based solely on the credentials of the filter guy. Oh well.

[jragosta]

Once again:

I'm happy that you don't think you've had any engine damage. First, I don't see how you can say that unless you've torn down the engine. Second, that's what's called an anecdotal data point.

Filtration companies test many, many samples of various filters using sophisticated test methods to determine how well they work. No one in their right mind would rely on a single test. And based on many thousands of man-years of testing experience in the filtration industry, I'm saying flat out that a K&N filter is not as good a choice as a standard OEM filter. Particles will bleed through and you also have to make sure you get exactly the right amount of oil on the filter.

You can be as happy as you want with your placebo filter. FROM A SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE, it's a bad choice.

←

I would suggest that statements such as those above would require the presentation of some valid statistical data from a reliable and disinterested source.

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I agree with jragosta statements! ;)

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http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

http://www.bolhuijo.com/airflowtest/index.html

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Thank you for saving me the time of looking these up.

Basically, the first article says that the K&N filter is going to allow all sorts of particles to get into your engine. Since the reason you want an air filter is to keep these particles out, that's not a good thing. Interestingly, it also says that the dirt holding capacity of the K&N is lower than OEM filters. K&N's site says it has a higher DHC. My guess is that K&N used coarser particles.

The second article was somewhat interesting. Based on K&N's web site and reports from various people, I expected that it would give higher air flow than an OEM filter - and therefore a slightly better horsepower. The tests reported here indicate that the K&N is no better than a high quality paper filter, but it is somewhat better than a cheapo paper filter. In any event, the difference is tiny.

Bottom line is that these tests confirm that any gains from using K&N are placebo effects. And you risk damaging your engine.

Again, thanks for digging up the references.

[jragosta]

When I was recommending filter media for R&D or production, I can't remember ever making a proposal based solely on the credentials of the filter guy.  Oh well.

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NO one asked you to.

I explained my credentials - and gave a detailed explanation of why these filters are no good in an earlier thread.

You have a choice of who to believe:

1. Someone who has filtration credentials and explains in detail why the filter is no good

or

2. Someone who doen't have any idea how filtration works, but thinks that they might see a 2% increase - but have no way to measure anything.

Interestingly, someone came up with the actual test data - and it confirmed the explanation I gave a long time ago. The K&N filters leak particles like crazy.

[branshew]

I have to agree w/ jragosta.

In my experience w/ European cars, K&N was NOT the way to go. If you look at other luxury car forum sites (Mercedes & BMW) they will tell you that using a K&N will most likely result in a premature failure of your MAF sensor/control. This was really a problem on Mercedes in the late 1990's.

Although I feel that Lexus is far superior in terms of component reliability, I don't think that there is any reason to upgrade to the K&N. You reall won't get any more HP out of it, and IMO it's just a PITA to keep cleaning the thing every time. If you had a custom exhaust, bored cylinders, forced air induction then it would help, but otherwise I don't see any need for it.

As it has been touched on, the reason you get more air into your engine with the K&N is that the filter matter has larger pores than a standard filter. K&N's solution to this was to keep the filter oiled in hopes of trapping the small particulate matter on the oily residue (since the filter pore size couldn't stop it) and having it cling to the filter.

To get more air flow into the engine through a filter you have two options: 1) increase the size of the filter while keeping the filtration level the same to allow the air to pass through faster, or 2) lower the level of filtration by increasing the pore size which allows air to pass through at a faster rate. There are obvoiusly down sides to both options which is why the manufacturers came up with their OEM filters to make the best of both.

Assuming you choose to keep the K&N, make sure you don't over-oil it. That will certainly lead to plenty of problems w/ your intake sensors.

[kyle0k]

so where does foam filter fall into place into all this. i heard its better then the rest but just needs to be replaced more often...?

[jragosta]

so where does foam filter fall into place into all this. i heard its better then the rest but just needs to be replaced more often...?

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Not according to the URLs above. It doesn't look like any of the tested filters beat a good quality pleated filter.

[Lexusfreak]

I've gotton over 500 miles (800 kms) several times when I switched from a new Lexus paper filter to a K & N........best I could do with a paper was 440 - 460 miles....I'm not convinced any damage is being done with the K & N filter. ;)

[jragosta]

I've gotton over 500 miles (800 kms) several times when I switched from a new Lexus paper filter to a K & N........best I could do with a paper was 440 - 460 miles....I'm not convinced any damage is being done with the K & N filter.  ;)

 

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That doesn't mean that damage hasn't occurred. No one claimed that EVERY car would be damaged or that it would be damaged quickly. The K&N filter increases the risk of engine damage significantly, though.

As for the mileage, there's something else going on. An air filter doesn't restrict flow that much. Under identical test track conditions, there's no way that replacing the paper filter with K&N would increase mileage by 10%. It's just not going to happen. Something else changed (your driving conditions, speed, weather, something).

[Lexusfreak]

I'm just going by my own personal experences (under the conditions I drive in here in Canada) I have had with the 3 cars I have put a K & N air filter in. Slightly increased throttle response, slightly better fuel economy (for all 3 vehicles) over the paper filters. B)

[jragosta]

I'm just going by my own personal experences (under the conditions I drive in here in Canada) I have had with the 3 cars I have put a K & N air filter in.  Slightly increased throttle response, slightly better fuel economy (for all 3 vehicles) over the paper filters.  B)

 

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Look up "placebo effect".

[amf1932]

I'm just going by my own personal experences (under the conditions I drive in here in Canada) I have had with the 3 cars I have put a K & N air filter in.  Slightly increased throttle response, slightly better fuel economy (for all 3 vehicles) over the paper filters.   B)

 

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Look up "placebo effect".

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You mean like this: http://skepdic.com/placebo.html