2006 Mercedes Ml350

[RX400h]

Follow this link to the MB site if you want to see how MB compares their ML to the RX.  Pretty funny actually......

http://www.mbusa.com/models/comparisons/co...torTrimID=16824

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Now THAT's hilarious! Notice how they included a Mercedes symbol where they thought the MB had the upper hand, yet no Lexus symbol could be found anywhere. The difference in gas mileage is astonishing, to say the least!

[NeoN]

The issue with the M-Class is reliability. Look at Consumers Reports and you will see a lot of "Black Dots".

My last vehicle was the ML430. It was the most unreliable vehicle I have ever owned. In fact, it would be hard to name a part that wasn't repaired or replaced. Regardless of performance and economy, the car needs to be something you can count on. This car spent a lot of time in the shop and I just don't have that kind of time.

I would seriously wait to see how the redesigned M-Class fairs in quality and reliability before buying. The Alabama manufacturing plant has yet to prove they can build an MB quality vehicle.

The ML has had quite a bit of a waiting list until delivered to dealers 3 weeks ago.

It is a vast improvment over the prevous lemon.

I have to say Alabama is no place to make a MB and the ML shows it.

But to really be impartial you would need to compare the ML500 to the RX400h or the ML350 to the RX330.That would be much less biasied as they are totally different.

I can relate to this similarly as I came from an ML500, 14-15 mpg around town doesn't help (18-19 highway sucks too). The car was completely unreliable, I was sick of going to the dealer to get electrical problems fixed those retards down in alabama caused when they attempted to build a german car the american way. The improvements are vast over the ML500 as the lexus isn't as heavy and unreliable as the ML500, plus I now get 18 mpg on my daily commute compared to 14-15 in the ML500, plus 22-24 on the highway doesn't hurt (i've only put 350 miles on my RX400h so far, so im looking to get around 20-21 in the summer on my daily commute once i break in the engine and 24-27 on the highway). Just the joy I get when i pull up at the pump and can fill up with 87 (ML500 requires 93,) and only spend $37 compared to $60 to fill the ML500. Little things like that make me happy I purchased a hybrid, since im cheap and like to save money any way I can. I'm the guy who shuts off A/C in the summer and opens his windows to save gas and turns off his engine at stop lights to save gas as well. Anyways, I was a bit disappointed with the handling of the RX400h compared to the ML500, the suspension isn't as stiff and has much more body roll than expected. I also wish the steering rack had a lower ratio just to make handling tighter and the tires on the RX400h don't give me much confidence in the rain/snow/fast sweeping curves compared to the ML500. coming from a 275/50/17 tire equated to a significant loss of stability which I would like to fix with some wider tires that hold the road better. But first off I would like to stiffen up the suspension of the RX400h in order to dramatically reduce body roll to give me more confidence when cornering. the smaller tires also aren't as stable in the snow/wet along with the awd system of the lexus, which I consider far inferior to the RX400h. I'm not looking to go offroading, just drive 80 in the rain without any problems. Another knock I have is the Rx400h stereo sucks! I was very disappointed since I couldn't have the ML in my RX400h and it is almost pathetic compared to my old Bose in the ML500. However, I love the NAVI in the Lexus, one of the biggest selling points, fantastic system, Mercedes is in the stone ages for comparison. CVT + electric motors = just enough torque to be equivalent of a v8. All in all I love the Lexus, if I could just get a stiffer suspension and some wider tires I'd be quite please but I'm probably going to have to be content with what I have for now. I'll check back in at 10,000 miles

[jkatsoudas]

A couple of thoughts:

- First, you do realize you just rescucitated a 2 year old thread :-)

- Second (to everyone on this thread) it's a bit ridiculous to compare the RX400h to the ML350. If you want a real comparison, it would be to this:

http://jalopnik.com/cars/frankfurt-auto-sh...cial-297374.php

I'll definitely be test-driving that truck when it comes out. I'm sick of the terrible seats, and sloppy handling of the RX.

[RX400h]

First of all, the ML350 IS priced similarly to the RX400h; see:

http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/defa...63&v=m12703

Secondly, when I started this thread many moons ago, there was no hybrid Mercedes. In fact, Mercedes was still in a state of shock at the time.

Thirdly, do you honestly think that Mercedes reliability is on par with that of Lexus? If you do, you may have started your holiday partying a bit too early. get back down to earth! :chairshot:

[jkatsoudas]

First of all, the ML350 IS priced similarly to the RX400h; see:

http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/defa...63&v=m12703

Secondly, when I started this thread many moons ago, there was no hybrid Mercedes. In fact, Mercedes was still in a state of shock at the time.

Thirdly, do you honestly think that Mercedes reliability is on par with that of Lexus? If you do, you may have started your holiday partying a bit too early. get back down to earth! :chairshot:

1) There are a lot of cars and trucks priced similarly to the RX. I'm still not sure, even in the absence of the ML450 that a comparison to the ML350 was valid- especially since your only comment on the specs was "I guess Mercedes fans will have to wait for the NEXT redesign before they can cut back on fuel costs!" Well, of course the ML350 will have worse fuel economy than the RX since it's not a hybrid. If you compare the ML350 to any other non-hybrid midsize SUV it still does OK in fuel economy.

2) Fair enough

3) In my sample size of 1, yes I do. My wife has had an MBZ E350 Sport for over a year (a bit longer than I've had my RX400h) and in that time we've each had exactly 0 reliability problems. More importantly, we each purchased the 7 year 100,000 mi extended warranties so any issues either of us have are covered, so reliability isn't that big of a concern in my book. After having driven both cars for over a year and having a better sense for German luxury car feel vs Japanese luxury car feel, I'd gladly accept MBZ ride, handling, and cockpit accompanied with MBZ reliability. The RX just feels too soft and sterile all around for me.

[jkatsoudas]

Secondly, when I started this thread many moons ago, there was no hybrid Mercedes. In fact, Mercedes was still in a state of shock at the time.

One additional thought on this point- you could argue that MBZ (and pretty much everyone else in the auto industry) played the safe bet. Toyota invested millions in a hybrid technology at a time when adoption by the buying public was far from guaranteed. They also footed the bill for this by themselves (they've since licensed the Gen2 technology to Ford to try to recoup some of their R&D investment). In the meantime, Mercedes has sat back and watched to see if this technology will be adopted. Once there is enough traction in the marketplace, they partner with GM and BMW to develop their own hybrid drive (sharing the R&D cost 3 ways), and they're only a few years behind Toyota in coming to market with their own product. Hybrids have barely made any inroads yet in most of the world, so in reality MBZ/BMW/GM have lost very little marketshare in the hybrid market as a result of the wait. That doesn't sound like shock to me, it sounds like good product development strategy.

Don't get me wrong- I commend Toyota for being the risk-taker. Without them, nobody else would be pursuing hybrid technology. And I did, after all, vote with my wallet and bought an RX I do think though, that as more hybrids, especially lxury hybrids, come to market and the RX isn't the only game in town, you'll start to see some interesting things. I don't think 25-30 mpg even scratches the surface of what hybrids can do (even hybrid SUV's), and I do think that there were corners cut on the RX400h in the interest of keeping the price close to the RX350 that you wouldn't normally see on a Lexus. For example, I would have gladly spent a little more for a better sound system on par with that in any other Lexus.

[RX400h]

[

3) In my sample size of 1, yes I do. My wife has had an MBZ E350 Sport for over a year (a bit longer than I've had my RX400h) and in that time we've each had exactly 0 reliability problems. More importantly, we each purchased the 7 year 100,000 mi extended warranties so any issues either of us have are covered, so reliability isn't that big of a concern in my book. After having driven both cars for over a year and having a better sense for German luxury car feel vs Japanese luxury car feel, I'd gladly accept MBZ ride, handling, and cockpit accompanied with MBZ reliability. The RX just feels too soft and sterile all around for me.

I should hope that all is well in just "over a year" of ownership. Fact is, that according to Consumer Reports, Mercedes has the worst reliabilty history of all the German car manufacturers. Take a look at any of the Mercedes forums and you will not be inclined to buy one, afterward. I know many people who have had a Mercedes and are now driving Infiniti and Lexus vehicles. The story is always the same - very poor reliability, especially after the warranty has expired. Lexus vehicles are not flawless, but they are lightyears ahread of MB when it comes to reliability.

Lexus chose "soft and sterile" because that's what more buyers prefer. Look at sales figures in the US for Lexus SUVs vs Mercedes SUVs. I live in a very large city/county and I see 30 times the number of RXs compared to MLs. Even when compared to the X5 BMW, Lexus easily wins the sales war. Obviously, Lexus has made the right decision when it opted for smooth and silky ride characteristics.

[jkatsoudas]

[

3) In my sample size of 1, yes I do. My wife has had an MBZ E350 Sport for over a year (a bit longer than I've had my RX400h) and in that time we've each had exactly 0 reliability problems. More importantly, we each purchased the 7 year 100,000 mi extended warranties so any issues either of us have are covered, so reliability isn't that big of a concern in my book. After having driven both cars for over a year and having a better sense for German luxury car feel vs Japanese luxury car feel, I'd gladly accept MBZ ride, handling, and cockpit accompanied with MBZ reliability. The RX just feels too soft and sterile all around for me.

I should hope that all is well in just "over a year" of ownership. Fact is, that according to Consumer Reports, Mercedes has the worst reliabilty history of all the German car manufacturers. Take a look at any of the Mercedes forums and you will not be inclined to buy one, afterward. I know many people who have had a Mercedes and are now driving Infiniti and Lexus vehicles. The story is always the same - very poor reliability, especially after the warranty has expired. Lexus vehicles are not flawless, but they are lightyears ahread of MB when it comes to reliability.

Lexus chose "soft and sterile" because that's what more buyers prefer. Look at sales figures in the US for Lexus SUVs vs Mercedes SUVs. I live in a very large city/county and I see 30 times the number of RXs compared to MLs. Even when compared to the X5 BMW, Lexus easily wins the sales war. Obviously, Lexus has made the right decision when it opted for smooth and silky ride characteristics.

I can't argue with anything that you've said. There's no denying Lexus/Toyota reliability record, and it's also clear that Lexus has made decisions on ride/comfort to cater to it's target audience with great success. But, at the end of the day a car purchase is a personal decision and a choice among trade-offs. After having driven an RX now for some time, I personally don't care for it's ride/handling characteristics, and I'd be happy to trade some reliability for something that gives me more pleasure to drive day in and day out, especially when I can largely negate any reliability concerns with an extended B to B warranty. I personally don't plan to keep a car more than 7 years or 100,000 miles anyway, so out of (extended) warranty reliability is a non-factor to me. What I do know is that MB dealership support is light years ahead of Lexus dealership support, at least for the two dealerships that we go to for regular service, and that's at least as big a factor in my mind when taking reliability into consideration in car purchasing decisions.

[RX400h]

I have to chuckle when I hear that someone is not concerned as long as the vehicle is "under warranty" because having to take your car (or have it towed) to the dealership is never much fun, even if you get a loaner car. The time spent doing this can be very significant, IMO. Personally, I don't care how great the dealership service is; if I'm always having to take time off to bring the car in, I'm not a happy camper.

[jkatsoudas]

I have to chuckle when I hear that someone is not concerned as long as the vehicle is "under warranty" because having to take your car (or have it towed) to the dealership is never much fun, even if you get a loaner car. The time spent doing this can be very significant, IMO. Personally, I don't care how great the dealership service is; if I'm always having to take time off to bring the car in, I'm not a happy camper.

I too have to chuckle when someone is willing to compromise on choices that impact their day to day lives out of fear of something that may or may not ever happen. Sure, having to take your car to the shop is a drag. Having front seats that are so uncomfortable that we can't take the RX on road trips because my wife's back gets too sore is a much bigger drag.

[LEXIRX330]

I have considered and will consider the ML350 as a replacement for my RX. The only problem is that they are a dime a dozen around me. 3 people that live on the same street as I do have them and there are only about 20 houses on my street. I bet in the neighborhood there must be 15 - 20 of them. There is not a Lexus dealership close to us so there are not quite as many around...

I love my Lexus...but my wife we have a Mercedes as well and I have to say that I love driving it too. If we had gotten the E class instead of the little C class I would probably drive it more then her. As far as the service...the people at the Mercedes dealership that is close to us have been absolutely great. I have had great service at Lexus as well... If I keep either car past 100k it would be my Lexus, but for one that I will get rid of in 3 years and that is under warranty it doesn't matter to me. If the Mercedes has to go in they are going to pick it up and give me a loaner.

[NeoN]

I have to chuckle when I hear that someone is not concerned as long as the vehicle is "under warranty" because having to take your car (or have it towed) to the dealership is never much fun, even if you get a loaner car. The time spent doing this can be very significant, IMO. Personally, I don't care how great the dealership service is; if I'm always having to take time off to bring the car in, I'm not a happy camper.

I too have to chuckle when someone is willing to compromise on choices that impact their day to day lives out of fear of something that may or may not ever happen. Sure, having to take your car to the shop is a drag. Having front seats that are so uncomfortable that we can't take the RX on road trips because my wife's back gets too sore is a much bigger drag.

Well said, i hate dealerships and everything they stand for, what a pain!

[RX400h]

I have to chuckle when I hear that someone is not concerned as long as the vehicle is "under warranty" because having to take your car (or have it towed) to the dealership is never much fun, even if you get a loaner car. The time spent doing this can be very significant, IMO. Personally, I don't care how great the dealership service is; if I'm always having to take time off to bring the car in, I'm not a happy camper.

I too have to chuckle when someone is willing to compromise on choices that impact their day to day lives out of fear of something that may or may not ever happen. Sure, having to take your car to the shop is a drag. Having front seats that are so uncomfortable that we can't take the RX on road trips because my wife's back gets too sore is a much bigger drag.

Seriously, if your wife is getting back pain from sitting in a Lexus, she needs to see a chiropracter or other specialist. I agree that the RX seats are not sportscar-like, but let's face it, Americans are getting bigger every year. A tight-fitting Recaro seat is just not an option for most 300-lb owners. In any event, if someone has serious discomfort when sitting on a plane or bus seat, it's time to see a professional.

[jkatsoudas]

Seriously, if your wife is getting back pain from sitting in a Lexus, she needs to see a chiropracter or other specialist. I agree that the RX seats are not sportscar-like, but let's face it, Americans are getting bigger every year. A tight-fitting Recaro seat is just not an option for most 300-lb owners. In any event, if someone has serious discomfort when sitting on a plane or bus seat, it's time to see a professional.

She already sees a chiro for her back, but that does not excuse the poor seat quality nor the fact that her MBZ seats cause her no discomfort at all. Also, from a demographic standpoint, your argument doesn't make sense, as statistics show an inverse relationship between affluence and obesity.

That notwithstanding, you have hit on the key issue that is increasingly annoying me about Toyota/Lexus- they design for the lowest common denominator. If they think a 300 lb person might want a Lexus, they'll design the car to accomodate a 300 lb person at the expense of everyone else. If they think some 80 year old that hasn't made the leap to CD's yet will refuse to buy a Lexus if it doesn't have a tape player, they'll leave the tape player there and waste tons of dash space. If they think some idiot will kill themselves trying to dial the phone of plug in a destination while driving, they'll lock out all those features out of fear of a billion dollar lawsuit. Mercedes, apparently, has no problem selling cars to people that like supportive seats and are intelligent enough to dial a phone while driving without killing themselves.

The other day I ran low on washer fluid. This, apparently, is a crisis in Lexus' mind. I now have this huge red triangle on my dash and the LCD display now says "LOW WASHER FLUID" and doesn't permit any of the other displays for more than a second or two. In the year that I've owned this car I've grown thoroughly tired of being treated like an idiot by Lexus.

[RX400h]

I would therefore venture to say that your wife cannot fly on a plane for any significant length of time? Believe it or not, you are among a very small minority of Lexus owners who despise the RX400h's seats. I agree that they are not as comfortable as they could be, but I know no one else who is literally pained by using them. In fact, a coworker and his wife, who are over 65 years old, are happy with the seats in their RX400h.

And although Mercedes, Audi, and BMW all include super-firm seats in ther vehicles, their SUV sales are trounced quite often by Lexus sales. Lexus must be doing something right!

Look, every vehicle has its good and not-so-good features. (The BMW I-drive is definitely a not-so-good feature), but by all means, let manufacturers know how you feel. If enough owners recommend the same change, perhaps we will see future models that incorporate some of these suggestions. I would love to see HUD (Heads Up Display) and tire pressure/oil life monitors in every car I drive, but for now, I am very happy with the RX.

[NeoN]

The other day I ran low on washer fluid. This, apparently, is a crisis in Lexus' mind. I now have this huge red triangle on my dash and the LCD display now says "LOW WASHER FLUID" and doesn't permit any of the other displays for more than a second or two. In the year that I've owned this car I've grown thoroughly tired of being treated like an idiot by Lexus.

If thats the least of you worries you should be happy.

[jkatsoudas]

I would therefore venture to say that your wife cannot fly on a plane for any significant length of time?

Coach is fine for domestic, business-class for international. She's actually less sore after a flight to Europe than a 4 hour drive to Tahoe in the RX.

And although Mercedes, Audi, and BMW all include super-firm seats in ther vehicles, their SUV sales are trounced quite often by Lexus sales. Lexus must be doing something right!

Don't get me wrong- I think Toyota/Lexus does a lot right. As I've stated in prior posts, I have a lot of respect for they've done in hybrid development. I also think their nav system is light years ahead of MBZ's and better than most others. The main reason the RX400h has been selling so well (and why I bought one) is that if you're in the market for a luxury hybrid SUV, well, it's the only game in town... today.

Look, every vehicle has its good and not-so-good features. (The BMW I-drive is definitely a not-so-good feature), but by all means, let manufacturers know how you feel. If enough owners recommend the same change, perhaps we will see future models that incorporate some of these suggestions.

Agreed- the I-Drive sucks! My wife initially had her heart set on a BMW 5 series. After playing with the I-drive for about 5 minutes at the dealership, we told the sales person that it was a deal breaker and that we'd never buy a BMW that had I-drive and that he'd better convey that to corporate.

The types of issues I'm talking about are intrinsic to Toyota/Lexus design philosophy. Lexus vehicles aren't going to suddenly start feeling like German cars just because some people say they prefer the feel of German cars- nor should they since, as you say, they sell quite a number of them as they are today.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

I personally think the new ML is a very attractive vehicle, but I've yet to drive one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thus far, I have not heard of huge waiting lists for this gas guzzler, has anyone else?

20mpg:

Rather than advertising such numbers, I for one hope such numbers are actually made illegal someday ... whether Mercedes, GM, Lexus, you name it. What a pity. I realize there'll always be motorheads that love the power handling aspects of transportation ... and I must admit I've had my share of 'em. But now, I say that I've had my 'fill' of them, in stead. It's all prospective.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Secondly, when I started this thread many moons ago, there was no hybrid Mercedes. In fact, Mercedes was still in a state of shock at the time.

One additional thought on this point- you could argue that MBZ (and pretty much everyone else in the auto industry) played the safe bet. Toyota invested millions in a hybrid technology at a time when adoption by the buying public was far from guaranteed. They also footed the bill for this by themselves (they've since licensed the Gen2 technology to Ford to try to recoup some of their R&D investment). In the meantime, Mercedes has sat back and watched to see if this technology will be adopted. Once there is enough traction in the marketplace, they partner with GM and BMW to develop their own hybrid drive (sharing the R&D cost 3 ways), and they're only a few years behind Toyota in coming to market with their own product.

snip

Similarly, you can argue these constipated, lazy, companies lost their ability to be inovative, and chose instead, to stick with the status quo. Gong beond that, actually. These companies actually skoffed at Toyota's hybrids ... calling them marketing schemes, and saying they're just a novelty, and money loosers, etc ... rather than get on the ball. Even then, rather than get on the ball, their knee jerk reaction? They lobied to have the EPA re-do the decades old system of averaging MPG ... so that the hybrid results wouldn't make their guzzlers look so bad. Yep, they'd rather cut of their noses to spite their faces ... because their own MPG results (which were already in the toilet) went down perportionally, with nothing gained.

As for 'waiting' then playing catch up? That's always a tough row to hoe, so to speek. Watch most NASCAR/INDY races, or 26 mile marathons. Generally, when the leader has a couple laps, or a runner has a couple miles on the competition, you know what the liklihood will be, baring the unforseen. Toyota / Lexus may come out with something with 10 or 20 miles pure EV, while the competition is still trying to dial in the hybrid. We shall see. Still, I love it when the competition looks threatening ... it forces Toyota not to rest on their lead.

[jkatsoudas]

Similarly, you can argue these constipated, lazy, companies lost their ability to be inovative, and chose instead, to stick with the status quo. Gong beond that, actually. These companies actually skoffed at Toyota's hybrids ... calling them marketing schemes, and saying they're just a novelty, and money loosers, etc ... rather than get on the ball. Even then, rather than get on the ball, their knee jerk reaction? They lobied to have the EPA re-do the decades old system of averaging MPG ... so that the hybrid results wouldn't make their guzzlers look so bad. Yep, they'd rather cut of their noses to spite their faces ... because their own MPG results (which were already in the toilet) went down perportionally, with nothing gained.

As for 'waiting' then playing catch up? That's always a tough row to hoe, so to speek. Watch most NASCAR/INDY races, or 26 mile marathons. Generally, when the leader has a couple laps, or a runner has a couple miles on the competition, you know what the liklihood will be, baring the unforseen. Toyota / Lexus may come out with something with 10 or 20 miles pure EV, while the competition is still trying to dial in the hybrid. We shall see. Still, I love it when the competition looks threatening ... it forces Toyota not to rest on their lead.

Not sure who you're referring to as "constipated, lazy, companies". If you're talking about the big 3 US auto makers... the same ones that lobbied to change the MPG calculations... the same ones that think that ethanol powered vehicles are the wave of the future (please don't get me started on what a joke ethanol is)... then I agree with you. However, in the context of this thread I really don't think you can include MBZ or BMW in that company. BMW is at the forefront of hydrogen fuel cell development. MBZ has been, and continues to be, at the forefront of safety innovation and clean diesel. Just because they didn't jump on the hybrid bandwagon on day 1 doesn't mean they're not innovators in other areas. Besides, I believe that gas/electric hybrids are merely an interim technology solution anyway. Even if hybrids are the long-term wave of the future, to use your analogies, right now we're in turn 1 of lap 1, or about 3 steps into the marathon. Toyota definitely doesn't have an insurmountible lead in this market.

[NY_RX400h_Savanah]

Similarly, you can argue these constipated, lazy, companies lost their ability to be inovative, and chose instead, to stick with the status quo. Gong beond that, actually. These companies actually skoffed at Toyota's hybrids ... calling them marketing schemes, and saying they're just a novelty, and money loosers, etc ... rather than get on the ball. Even then, rather than get on the ball, their knee jerk reaction? They lobied to have the EPA re-do the decades old system of averaging MPG ... so that the hybrid results wouldn't make their guzzlers look so bad. Yep, they'd rather cut of their noses to spite their faces ... because their own MPG results (which were already in the toilet) went down perportionally, with nothing gained.

As for 'waiting' then playing catch up? That's always a tough row to hoe, so to speek. Watch most NASCAR/INDY races, or 26 mile marathons. Generally, when the leader has a couple laps, or a runner has a couple miles on the competition, you know what the liklihood will be, baring the unforseen. Toyota / Lexus may come out with something with 10 or 20 miles pure EV, while the competition is still trying to dial in the hybrid. We shall see. Still, I love it when the competition looks threatening ... it forces Toyota not to rest on their lead.

Not sure who you're referring to as "constipated, lazy, companies". If you're talking about the big 3 US auto makers... the same ones that lobbied to change the MPG calculations... the same ones that think that ethanol powered vehicles are the wave of the future (please don't get me started on what a joke ethanol is)... then I agree with you. However, in the context of this thread I really don't think you can include MBZ or BMW in that company. BMW is at the forefront of hydrogen fuel cell development. MBZ has been, and continues to be, at the forefront of safety innovation and clean diesel. Just because they didn't jump on the hybrid bandwagon on day 1 doesn't mean they're not innovators in other areas. Besides, I believe that gas/electric hybrids are merely an interim technology solution anyway. Even if hybrids are the long-term wave of the future, to use your analogies, right now we're in turn 1 of lap 1, or about 3 steps into the marathon. Toyota definitely doesn't have an insurmountible lead in this market.

I totally agree. This thread is becoming a little too narrow-minded. Come on guys- we all agree that RX is a great car with some compromises not everyone likes, but.... Lexus is not the only company here and putting down BMW or MB just because they didn't do anything about hybrids? Hmm those companies exist far longer than any Japanese car maker and contributed to the car industry far more than Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan all together. Now we can all get excited about 40-50 mpg on avg getting from Prius but guess what there are diesels out there made by Peugueot, Citroen, MB and others that will get you even further than that. Also about 20% cars i Europe run on CNG. And yes hydrogen technology seems to be a future of the car industry if we want to save not only money but also our planet-who's leading there?? It gets me annoyed when some people here (some of them Lexus customers-some of them Lexus employees) jumping into very false conclusions- it's true that MB and BMW sales dropped drastically over the past years but not because of the reliability reasons-if some of you didn't realize that yet-our beloved $ dollar has lost almost 50% against Euro in the past 5 years (when started 1E=0,75c now it's 1E=1,45). Now in terms of customer service don't even go there because from my personal experience Lexus has a light years to go to get to BMW or MB level-honestly-I owed BMW before and wife owes MB now so we have some reference points. To say the least-she doesn't have to visit dealer every time her battery dies (BTW it never did because some smart German designed electrical system very well) as I had to do it 4 times already-hat is a waste of time!!

Toyota should get well deserved credit for pushing hybrid technology and helping the environment-but don't forget other car makers work hard on other technologies as well and we should hope they succeed.

The bottom line is that please stop raving about MB or BMW based on Customer Reports-guess what they all say that Panasonic is the best plasma while Fujitsu is crap-reality is that it's the other way around.

A little respect is not too much to ask.

[jkatsoudas]

Not to pile on here, but I watched the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" last night. It's a pretty sad commentary on GM, the state of California, and big oil, but one interesting fact was that when California first enacted the zero emmissions legislation in the late 90's GM began a huge hybrid program (which they sadly dropped as soon as the legislation was killed). Toyota and Honda, out of fear of being left in the dust on hybrid technology, then began their own programs as a response to GM's investment. Hmmmm, not so clear who's the innovator and who's playing catchup now, is it?

[RX400h]

The bottom line is that please stop raving about MB or BMW based on Customer Reports-guess what they all say that Panasonic is the best plasma while Fujitsu is crap-reality is that it's the other way around.

A little respect is not too much to ask.

I think you mean something other than "raving", which more or less means "praising". And regarding plasma TVs, I spent many an hour visiting store after store and studying picture quality, back when 1080i was the best (2 years ago). Everytime I compared the Panasonic plasmas to ANY of the competition, it was not a contest at all. The Panasonic plasma was superior in every way. I'm not sure why you didn't think so, but everyone else I spoke to who was looking for a big screen said the same thing - Panasonic rules the plasma roost. In fact, their current 1080P sets are even more incredible. Competion is very good, however - not as theings were 2 years ago.

As far as Consumer Reports goes. I am a long-time subscriber and can tell you that the "ratings" they publish are based directly upon consumer-completed questionaires that are sent to us, annually. A large percentage of German vehicles simply cannot be compared to Japanese vehicles when it comes to high-reliability, based upon thousands of "reports" by the very people who spend countless hours in their vehicles each day. You can try to deny this all you want, but the fact is that there is no other organization that is as thorough as CU when it comes to product information. The fact that they do not accept advertisements speaks volumes about their integrity.

Diesel engines are certainly getting better, but for many, the old stinky, noisey versions from MB and Volkswagen left a very bad taste in people's mouths. It still doesn't help that diesel fuel is commonly more expensive than premium fuel. Diesel engines are also very expensive to manufacture -another issue that cannot be ignored.

[RX400h]

Not to pile on here, but I watched the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" last night. It's a pretty sad commentary on GM, the state of California, and big oil, but one interesting fact was that when California first enacted the zero emmissions legislation in the late 90's GM began a huge hybrid program (which they sadly dropped as soon as the legislation was killed). Toyota and Honda, out of fear of being left in the dust on hybrid technology, then began their own programs as a response to GM's investment. Hmmmm, not so clear who's the innovator and who's playing catchup now, is it?

Remember that brainstorming is not nearly as difficult as bringing an idea to completion. I've seen far too many creative people go nowhere because they couldn't follow through. As they say, "The devil is in the details." Toyota is a pioneer because they conquered the details and successfully delivered what no other company could at the time.

[jkatsoudas]

Remember that brainstorming is not nearly as difficult as bringing an idea to completion. I've seen far too many creative people go nowhere because they couldn't follow through. As they say, "The devil is in the details." Toyota is a pioneer because they conquered the details and successfully delivered what no other company could at the time.

If your quote read "Toyota is a pioneer because they conquered the details and successfully delivered what no other company would at the time" I would agree with it 100%. GM had a 100% electric car in production. Do you really think that a hybrid would have been that big a stretch for them? They already had the batteries worked out, and this was the biggest technical challenge. GM dropped the hybrid, not because they didn't have the technical expertise, but because big oil killed it and because they were afraid that if they pushed clean cars too much there would be a big backlash against their bread-and-butter gas SUV's like their recently acquired (at the time) Hummer line. I commend Toyota for what they did, but the main driver of their success was political, not technical.