Need Help - Sputtering, Stalling

[palacie]

Hi to all,

I'm new to your forum and it is very helpful; you are so knowledgeable. Well, I am an older lady who is 'not', knowledgeable, that is. So, here goes:

On my way to the market, I noticed my ES300 idling a little rough, usually smooth and quiet. It has about 70,000 miles on it. Anyway, when I parked, it was running more evenly. After shopping, on the way home, it began idling rougher than before and on a very slight incline, when I needed a little more speed, when I tried to accelerate, it didn't. Instead, it started slowing down. Then, as I approached a stop sign, it started sputtering loudly and slowing down more. Then, it died. I was able to start it up again to the sound of very loud sputtering and it died again and it would not restart. The lights were fine. So, I had it towed to a local mechanic who had done a job for me before. The AAA towing guy told me it was probably the fuel pump because he had me turn the key to the 'On' position and took the gas cap off and said there was no sound of the fuel pump starting up.

BTW, when I stalled, someone who saw it happen said he saw smoke coming out of the rear end.

Okay, so it's at the mechanics. When I called to see if it arrived there alright, the owner said that it might be the timing belt and it should have been replaced at 60,000 miles. She also said, very eerily, "If it's the timing belt, that's a BIG job!"

She made no mention of the possibility of a fuel pump. So, I'm wondering, in your expert opinions, what does this sound like to you from the symptoms I have described? Is there rough idling, sputtering, slowing down, etc. with a timing belt that is going? Or, more likely the fuel pump? It's not like this place is my mechanic of many years standing so I don't know whether to trust them or not.

Of course, I didn't hear this preliminary diagnosis from the mechanic himself; I got it from the co-owner of the place; the other one is her husband. She said that they would look at it more thoroughly tomorrow (actually, now today) and give me a call before they do anything. So, I am hoping, before I am completely at their mercy, to get some good advice from you very knowledgeable folks.

Please help asap; this grandma is very worried! I hope that I've posted correctly.

Thank you all in advance,

Shirley

[ArmyofOne]

hello shirley, let me be the first to weclcome you, and also tell you that your car is probably not suffering from a broken timing belt. i am a mechanic by hobby, so i may use some terms that you arent familiar with, but i will do my best to put it into an easily understood perspective...if i get off on a tangent, call me on it, cause sometimes i get so wrapped up in my hobby, that even i dont know what im saying LOL.

timing belts: when they go, they go, there is no warning, the engine only runs for a few seconds, then stalls. once it stalls it does not start back up. they typically break when you are putting the engine under load (i.e Uphill climbs or taking off from a light). they should be good for 80K i believe on the ES300, but i could be wrong.

IF (and thats a BIG if) it is the timing belt, it and the Water Pump should be replaced at the same time (a while you are in there kind of thing). also, if its the timing belt, have them change your spark plugs and plug wires.

on second thought (if it hasnt been done recently) i would have the Spark plugs done if the mechanic has to do anything to the engine at all.

more than likely it is a fuel pump, but other things will cause this too.

1. a severly clogged fuel filter (it would have to have well over 150,000 miles on the original)

2. Bad Ignition Coil (the black box that your plug wires run to. it generates electricity sending spark down the spark plug wires, to the plugs where they ignite the fuel)

3. Bad ECU (engine control unit, not sure of the specific name for it on these cars, but its basically the computer that controls your car)

4. Bad spark plugs: when plugs get too old, they crack. if you have recently had them replaced, sometimes they get defective ones. on a 6 cylinder, if one plug crakcs, the car will still drive. 2, and you may be sputtering and stalling, but it wll restart and get you home/ to a mechanic. 3 cracked plugs, and you wont be going anywhere...its very unlikely (even if they are the factory lexus plugs) that they are cracked.

5 Clogged air filter: again, the car will still drive with this, it will just run like crap.

6. Bad MAF. the mass airflow sensors on cars just give out after a period of time. it happens.

7. clogged Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve. usually the car will still run, albeit like crap.

8. WATER IN YOUR GAS (if you dont know what this will do, please let me know and i will be more than happy to explain, some people believe it will just make steam, trust me, THIS IS NOT THE CASE. but i figure you are smarter than they are, so i wont explain at the moment.)

anyway, those are things to look for.

but the description of the symptoms you gave (with the exception of the smoke) sounds an aweful lot like a car that runs out of gas. it stalls once or twice first, then stalls out again and will not restart.

so there are 2 questions i have for you.

1. how much gas did you have in the car (most fuel pumps either die with a full tank, or with less than 1/4 tank, usually not in between.

2. Where waw the smoke coming from? Tailpipe, under the hood, under the car???oh and if it is a broken Timing belt, go ahead and have the mechainc replace the following parts (depending on labor rates in your area, the price may vary.) Based offof labor in Dallas/Ft Worth:

-Timing belt: ~$50

-Water Pump: ~$110

-Timing Belt Tensioner and pulley: ~$85

-Water Pump Pulley: ~$25???

-New Motor Mounts (if yours are worn, i wouldnt think they would be with only 70,000 miles though): ~$150

-TRANSMISSION FLUID DRAN & FILL (i cant stress this enough):~$30.

-Coolant Flush (they will have to change your coolant anyway when they change the water pump)

-Spark Plugs/wires: ~$90

- Cam Seals (again, theywill probablyhave to do this anyway)

-Oil change: ~$30.

with about $450 in labor, your total comes to:

~$1,020.

thats again, depending on labor in your area. count on at least $600 for just Timing Belt and Water Pump.

For all the work above, shoot for $1,050.

[palacie]

Hi, 'Army of One',

Thanks a million for your long and very educated reply to my post. The mechanic called me late today to tell me that he had found the basic problem which was:

(of all crazy things) mice had been nesting somewhere in the engine area of my car and had chewed many of the wires! We live in a kind of rural area with lots of trees and fields around us. The mechanic said they found lots of mouse droppings and acorns from the oak trees which are all over the place. In addition to that, they said the rotor cap was shot, air filter and fuel filter needed replacing, spark plugs needed, and I forget what else. It all got very confusing. Oh, they recommended an oil change, too. They said the job would run $500.00 so I could do nothing but ok it. Have no idea if that's good or bad, but I was between a rock and a hard place. So, that's my sad story and I'm stuck with it.

They also told me that the valve gasket covers need replacing, due to oil leaking, to the tune of another $185.00. I said to hold off on that for now for monetary reasons. Besides, I have no idea if that is a fair price for that or not, so I will do a little checking before I have it done. I live in the San Fernando Valley of southern California and prices are not cheap here. They also recommended that I have the timing belt changed even tho it looks alright for now. When I told them that Lexus said 90,000 miles on that, the mechanic said that I shouldn't be going by only the mileage but, also, the age of the car. Do you feel that is true? If they do that job, I think he said it would be $435.00. I had called a few places on the timing belt and got prices anywhere from $285.00 to $700.00! What a huge range!

Anyway, thanks again for all your help. Any more advice regarding the other items I mentioned will be greatly appreciated. You are a great guy!

Shirley

[amf1932]

The timing belt should have been changed at 60K miles on your year car, so what you were told about changing it is correct. As far as all the other things that you were told, ie: valve cover gaskets, air cleaner, spark plugs, oil change, etc., most likely is correct also. I think the prices you were quoted are pretty much in line. All of these maintenance items are pretty normal for a car of your year and mileage. How much $$ did the mechanic tell you he'd charge for the timing belt change?

[ArmyofOne]

Hi, 'Army of One',

Thanks a million for your long and very educated reply to my post. The mechanic called me late today to tell me that he had found the basic problem which was:

(of all crazy things) mice had been nesting somewhere in the engine area of my car and had chewed many of the wires! We live in a kind of rural area with lots of trees and fields around us. The mechanic said they found lots of mouse droppings and acorns from the oak trees which are all over the place. In addition to that, they said the rotor cap was shot, air filter and fuel filter needed replacing, spark plugs needed, and I forget what else. It all got very confusing. Oh, they recommended an oil change, too. They said the job would run $500.00 so I could do nothing but ok it. Have no idea if that's good or bad, but I was between a rock and a hard place. So, that's my sad story and I'm stuck with it.

They also told me that the valve gasket covers need replacing, due to oil leaking, to the tune of another $185.00. I said to hold off on that for now for monetary reasons. Besides, I have no idea if that is a fair price for that or not, so I will do a little checking before I have it done. I live in the San Fernando Valley of southern California and prices are not cheap here. They also recommended that I have the timing belt changed even tho it looks alright for now. When I told them that Lexus said 90,000 miles on that, the mechanic said that I shouldn't be going by only the mileage but, also, the age of the car. Do you feel that is true? If they do that job, I think he said it would be $435.00. I had called a few places on the timing belt and got prices anywhere from $285.00 to $700.00! What a huge range!

Anyway, thanks again for all your help. Any more advice regarding the other items I mentioned will be greatly appreciated. You are a great guy!

Shirley

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those prices seem well in line.

dont always go the cheapest, but maybet the next one up. (cheap is uslally cheap for a reason. ;) ) there are sometimes garages that will tell you $385.00, until theyget in there and find out what a PITA it is to fix, then they raise the price. you go in with $385 inyou pocket, and they do the work, and after the car is fixed they tell you it will be $450. dont let them do this to you. if the garage hasnt been in business for at least 3 years, and you dont know them well, dont do it.

90% of the time, its better to have your regular mechanic do all of the work, even if you have to pay a little more. he knows the car well.

also, the timing belt can be judged by looking at it.

1. remove the cover

2. mark middle of visible part of belt with a sharpie.

3. look at the visible part of the belt. if you see any fraying/chunks taken out of it/dryrot or stress cracks, have it replaced. if you dont proceed to next step:

4. have a friend turn the ignition over for a split second, enough top move the belt about 1 revolution, and look again.

repeat step 4, until you reach the mark you put on the belt.

if you dont see anything, you are ok more than likely, for a few thousand more miles. i woudl check it every time you change your oil. but i have seen toyota timing belts last over 100K (even mine is at 140,000 and doesnt look too bad)

[amf1932]

Sorry, I disagree with this statement:

also, the timing belt can be judged by looking at it.

"Belt inspection is not a reliable method of determining when to change the belt."

Even if a belt looks good after the time a manufacturer states to change it, the plasticisers have dried up making the belt somewhat brittle. I wouldn't take the chance of it happening. ;)

[ArmyofOne]

Sorry, I disagree with this statement:

also, the timing belt can be judged by looking at it.

"Belt inspection is not a reliable method of determining when to change the belt."

Even if a belt looks good after the time a manufacturer states to change it, the plasticisers have dried up making the belt somewhat brittle. I wouldn't take the chance of it happening. ;)

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if the belt moves freely (you can expand it with you hand by pushing down on the space between the cams) for less than an inch, and she has no rubber particles (black dust) coming off of the belt (getting on her fingertips), then she is fine for a little while. i didnt sya indefinately. i said check it. its possible to push it to right at the limit.

when it snaps, the only thing she will be out is a car for a few days while its being repaired + tow fees. granted, its better to fix it before it happnes, but if she doenst have the money, then she doenst have the money. the belt on htese cars wont break anything, the eingine will just stall cause it cant keep its timing. the way the heads are desdigned prevents the pistons from hitting the valves (on older engines, timing belt breaks=Pistons hit the valves and put hols in the piston/bend the valves=new engine). these engines are non interference, meaning it is next to impossible to have a problem if the belt breaks. aside from that, wiring harness repairs are usually PROHIBITIVELY expensive due to the IMMENSE labor required to trace and isolate all the wires.

Shirley, have them do the Timing belt AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. thats all i was saying. i only threw out the visual check as a last resort. if you can do it now, dont wait. if you can actually see cracks in the timing belt, get it done now. if not, you are ok to wait for a little longer, dont wait long.

bottom line, get it done as soon as it is possibel to do so.

[norbertk]

After initially reading her symptoms, I experienced the exact same problems, and it was my distributor cap. Glad it's getting resolved.

[SKperformance]

the price for the maintance is alright for parts and labour, what maintance has been does previously and the milage done.

A bad cap and rotor can cuase seom problems but it always a good thing to change rather inexpensivley.

If you have no maintance schedule previously then the things to change no is

spark plugs

wires

rotor and cap

oil

a throttle body cleaing

other things to do later are the

timingbelt

coolant

tranny fluid

[ellieoh]

I would also check all of the vacum hoses including the one from the airbox to the air intake, a split will cause the stalling symptons mentioned.

I thought that the 1993 ES300 had a crank trigger rather than a conventional distributor and rotor?

Annie Oakley Doakley

[ArmyofOne]

I would also check all of the vacum hoses including the one from the airbox to the air intake, a split will cause the stalling symptons mentioned.

I thought that the 1993 ES300 had a crank trigger rather than a conventional distributor and rotor?

Annie Oakley Doakley

←

that was 1994 IIRC.

[palacie]

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to thank you all for your help and information. I had the $500.00 job done and, as of now, the car is running very smoothly and very quietly.

To the person who mentioned hoses, the mechanic said that he did check all of them. Regarding the price of $285.00 that I got from one garage for the timing belt, it was a AAA approved one, which should mean something good. Right? Someone, I think Army of One, said that I should do the water pump at the same time as the timing belt. Is that always a 'must'? Approximately, how much would that add to the price?

Any more thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks again; you're a great group!

Shirley

[ArmyofOne]

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to thank you all for your help and information. I had the $500.00 job done and, as of now, the car is running very smoothly and very quietly. 

To the person who mentioned hoses, the mechanic said that he did check all of them. Regarding the price of $285.00 that I got from one garage for the timing belt, it was a AAA approved one, which should mean something good. Right? Someone, I think Army of One, said that I should do the water pump at the same time as the timing belt. Is that always a 'must'? Approximately, how much would that add to the price?

Any more thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks again; you're a great group!

Shirley

←

it SHOULD only add the price of the part, no more than $150 i wouldnt think.

and just cause they are AAA certified doesnt mean i woudl elt them within an inch of my car.

the Jiffylube that did an emissions test on my first car ever (a 1983 Chevy S10 P/U) decided to leave the engien at redline for 1.5 minutes and belw my motor in half...yes, they cracked the damned block in half!. they were AAA certified.

all that AAA cert means is that they are a certified AAA service center, meaning that AAA will send your car there if/when it leaves you stranded.

go to a private mechanic.

if they want to charge you extra labor for adding the WP and gasket in there, tell them no and go on about your merry way. the WP change interval should be every time the belt is changed because it is a crucial part to your engien, it is what pumps your coolant around inside your engine. if that goes, you can do things like, blow head gaskets.

[palacie]

Hi again, 'Army',

I don't know what the Auto Club is like in your area but here, in southern CA, they have pretty strict guidelines. The places I called are not towing facilities at all, just private repair garages. Here is an excerpt from the Auto Club of So. Ca. site:

"While there are many quality repair facilities, each Approved Auto Repair (AAR) facility is carefully screened and monitored to assure it meets our tough standards and criteria. Sheet metal, paint, glass, and upholstery are not included in the AAR program, although some AAR facilities may offer these services.

The facility listing used in the AAR Online Search is updated regularly. We recommend, however, that when you visit one of these shops, look for the official Approved Auto Repair Sign to be certain it is still part of the AAR Program.

Protection You Can Trust

All motorists, whether or not they are AAA members, have the following protection provided by the AAR program:

High standards - We regularly inspect each AAR facility for compliance with our stringent program standards.

Guaranteed repairs - At AAR facilities, parts and labor on mechanical repairs are guaranteed for 12 months or 12,000 miles, whichever comes first under normal operating conditions.

Reliable repair facilities are not far away - There are over 1,000 AAR facilities in California, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Hawaii and Utah to serve you!

There is an additional benefit to AAA members when using an AAR facility. AAR facilities have agreed to accept the Auto Club's decision when a member is concerned about the quality of repairs or service."

I know once in the past, I had work done at an approved facility and was very happy with the work and price. But, that man retired....

Anyway, thanks for the advice about the water pump addition and what the price should be, or shouldn't be. BTW, what did you mean about the gasket? Is that part of the water pump job?

Shirley

[ArmyofOne]

Anyway, thanks for the advice about the water pump addition and what the price should be, or shouldn't be. BTW, what did you mean about the gasket? Is that part of the water pump job?

Shirley

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yes, the gasket cant be reused once the old pump is removed. it comes with the new waterpump as a "kit" for most mechanics. if you buy it from autozone, i think you have to buy the gasket separately. but the gasket is only a ~$3.00 part if i recall correctly.

between $150-$200 is pretty typical for a waterpump. on my ford it was $105, but i figure with a lexus it will be more. if you didnt have it replaced this go round, thats ok...but make sure you get it next time.

meantime, flush out your coolant system FREQUENTLY. clean coolant lubricates the water pump impeller better than dirty coolant, which can clump around it.

change coolant every 5 oil changes...depending on how much you drive, that couls be 2 months or 2 years from now. :D

FWIW: most of the cost on the timing belt repair is labor...

i just remembered you had mice in your wiring, so you didnt have it changed...ill reiterate, get it done first chance you get!

[SKperformance]

just for a thought ,i changed my timing belt as 120 000 km and did it again at 150 000 km as the water pump started leaking after.

[palacie]

Hi to all who replied to me,

I just wanted to say 'thank you' to everyone who responded. You all were very helpful! Yes, I will get the timing belt and water pump changed very, very soon.

Thanks again,

Shirley

[ArmyofOne]

Hi to all who replied to me,

I just wanted to say 'thank you' to everyone who responded. You all were very helpful! Yes, I will get the timing belt and water pump changed very, very soon.

Thanks again,

Shirley

←

no problem. :D