brianpavlovic Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Alright, I have read ALL the posts about this but I still have one concern. I have a 1994 ES that smokes at start up. I just bought the car one month ago and it recently started doing this. I know that the "sludge" or oil gelling issue only applies to 97 and up, but my 1994 ES is showing those symptoms. I checked under the car and around the entire engine and found no oil. I put a white piece of cardboard under the car and waited.....no oil leak. But every morning now when I go to start her up, a little puff of blue smoke comes out of the tail pipe. I took it back to the toyo dealer where I purchased the vehicle and explained the issue with them. I explained my situation to them and he said something about valve seals. My question is real simple........ Can a 1994 ES engine with 120K have engine oil gelling? Was it a good idea to have taken it to a toyo dealer as opposed to a Lex dealer? -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I would jump right onto the sludge issue. It sound like valve seals but could be leaking head gasket, Idle control valve, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 one way to find out is to pull the front valve cover and see what it looks like. you will see the sludge if present and you might be able to get an idea of the valve seals. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 :( Well, here's the thing, the car is now sitting at Peruzzi Toyota to be looked at on Monday. I am always weary about stealerships doing work on my car. I cannot be there to see any of the things that you mentioned, but do you think that I should stick with the "gelling" issue? What kinds of things should I ask the mechanic when they call me? I am really scared that this job will cost moocho bucks! Here's another thing, .....Since I just bought the car a month ago, do you think that the dealer might absorb some of the cost or should I bring Perry Mason with me? p.s. I think that the "Oil Debate : Dino vs. Syn is finally answered for me! I think that Toyota should inform all of their customers about this gelling issue. My wife and I had purchased this 94 ES300 and a new Camry as well. :cries: Please Help! Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 the originating dealer can always plead no knowledge. However, If it is sludge, it didn't happen overnight. There should be some sort of warranty (30 day, 90 day, etc). You could call and ask them without giving up details. Pretend you are an interested customer and you are just curious. As for the Toyota dealer that has the car, give them the benefit of the doubt and wait and see what happens on Monday. good luck. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 A puff of blue smoke at start up is normal on many of the early 1990's Toyota engines including the ES300 engine. The puff can be cured by installing new valve stem seals, but most owners find it cost prohibitive to have new seals installed, especially since it is not seriously harmful to keep driving with leaky seals. So I'd recommend not worrying about the puff and just keep on driving for another 100,000+ miles. Monitor your oil consumption. As long as your engine is burning only 1 quart every 1500 - 3000 miles or more, you're doing fine. With regard to the sludge issue, first consider that under 10% of the V6's get sludge and that sludge occurrence is limited to the group of owners who extend their oil changes beyond 6 months or 5000 miles. So check the service history of the car. If the oil has been changed at least every 6 months or 5000 miles then the engine will be clean and sludge free inside. A huge number of used car shoppers don't examine service records before they buy a used car. These shoppers are preoccupied with the cosmetic appearance and price of the car. They figure a Toyota is a good beater car that can be neglected and keep on ticking. They find out the hard way this is not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Generally, how much would it cost to replace those valve seals? Roughly so I know how much I am getting into? As far as the sludge issue, I know did not happen over night, that's the thing. I only have the car for one month...so who ever had it before me must have neglected their car. But, should I be responsible for someone else's neglect? Before I put the money down, the dealer reassured me that EVERY vehicle gets a 180 point inspection before it goes on the lot. How could they have missed this? As far as the beater issue, I don't anyone who buys a Lexus to beat! My wife and needed a good reliable car and it was either this or a chevy lumina. I still think I made the right choice. I am new this forum but a car guy at heart like most of you guys. I just hope that everything will be okay. p.s. I just changed the oil in my wife's Camry from Toyo to Syn so this sludge thing will not happen to her. Funny thing, the car runs quieter! :D Imagine that! -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 One more thing... I found this thread on another lexus owners club.uk and I was wondering if there was a way that Lexus would cover the cost? Any chance? "They completely understand what is going on; it is just that no one wants to pay for it! I have been able to push hard enough and my local Lexus Dealer has diagnosed the problem as: Valve Guides are not seated properly and therefore Lexus will pay for Valve Stem replacement. Oil is blowing by the valve guides and thus, oil consumption and blue smoke. I called my personal car mechanic who told me that this is a fairly common problem with Toyota Camry's and they have seen it with the Lexus GS." -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molocka12 Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 You might want to try reving the engine to about 4-5 rpms while in park if you see the blue smoke while engine is reving it might be the very beging of the engine burning oil. If you see no smoke maybe it is nothing to worry about unless your blue smoke situation worsens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyofOne Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 i would tend to steer towards a head gasket myself, but valv seals will also cause it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 But, should I be responsible for someone else's neglect? Before I put the money down, the dealer reassured me that EVERY vehicle gets a 180 point inspection before it goes on the lot. How could they have missed this? Yes, you are responsible for the prior owner's neglect if you failed to examine the service records prior to purchasing the vehicle. Service records are your primary assurance the vehicle does not have serious mechanical wear and tear. Inspections can't uncover alot of wear and tear or abuse / neglect. Ditto in regards to human heath. Example: Bill Clinton was inspected by government doctors when he was in office and given a clean bill of health, but some of his arteries were already starting to become blocked due to his junk food diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branshew Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 As Monarch indicated, you are going to end up holding the bag on this one. I guarantee that valve seals are not on the 180 point checklist (did you get a copy of this checklist by the way?). Chances are they just check safety and cosmetic issues (brakes, cracked glass, body damage, visible oil leak, frayed belts, tire wear, alignment) before putting a used car on the lot. Not even a Lexus dealer would check the valve seals for a CPO. There are several reasons why you won't get far trying to make a claim with Lexus on your engine if it has problems with oil gelling. 1) The car is 10 years old and way out of any sort of manufacturers warranty period, and 2) the gelling issue applies only to the '97+ engines. If you are still within your 30 day warranty with the dealer that you bought the car from than I would have them address the issue. Who wants to buy a used car and have to put an expensive engine job into it right away. I think that will be your only leg to stand on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I will make this short and sweet. The 180-point inspection is a total joke. When they open the door and windows that is like 12 points down! It is unreal on what they think is a “point” here. When I got my car there were 2 cars, 98% the same except for heated seats and miles. I asked the sales guy why is one CPO and one not. He said due to the high miles. Monarch is correct but it is a lesser number then stated. It is more like 3.3% out of the 3.3 million-cars. Also ALL info I have found says nothing on “oil changes beyond 6 months or 5000 miles”. That part is untrue. All you need to do is “All we ask is that you show a reasonable effort to regularly maintain your vehicle.” That is per Lexus in black and white. If you want examine the records but that is not going to tell the complete condition of the engine. It is ok at best. If you think something is up, as I have said 100 times in the past, do an oil analysis. You can have records of this and that but it does not prove it was done, installed or even done to proper specs. Oil tests will give you the best “real time” data you can get. So, most Lexus dealers have a 3K mile or 30 day period after buying. If you are unhappy bring the sucker back and say fix it within xx days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 Well, I just got off the phone with the sales manager. Man, what a work out :cries: Here's what he told me. They found that the valve stem seals are bad but they also found gel inside the engine too. He went on to say that my engine fell within the warranty. It is obviously way too late to get any kind of affirmative answer, but he is going to get final confirmation. If it is gelled, they will replace the engine at no cost to me. Here's the thing, when you take the oil cap off and look at where you are pouring the oil, everything inside looks like sludge and black! yuk! Oh well, I appreciate eveyones comments! Now I can make a well informed decision about my car. I also called Lehigh Valley Lexus and plugged this great website! You guys are really great and very helpful and positive too! Briian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 hope for the new motor and then change your oil every 3-5k miles. If they do not offer this, then call the dealership you bought the car from and request that they pay for the replair/replacement or give a total refund of the purchase price. They sold you sludge.....literally. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 Thanks for the advice. I will hear from the sales manager this afternoon and let you guys know. I never thought about a total refund. Is there some kind of law for that if a dealer sells you a "sludge" car? -Brian :chairshot: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Wow a warr engine in a 10 year old car, now that is nice. It usually looks like cap under the filler cap as it is a splash sheild built intot hte head so you can add oil while the engine is running . So it collects thin layers of oil their and bakes it one as it isn;t in the flow of oil to be washed or cleaned. I know of one moron who was under the stupist assumption that toyota put it their as a specially coating and it was not to be removed. Some people really smoke good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 It really is a shame that some people destroy these cars! I currently own a 01 Nissan Maxima since new and take car of the car as if it were my child. It has 54000 miles and runs great! Why would someone buy a Lexus and neglect it? I have only owned my Lex a few weeks and have already done a lot of the things that should have been done before I bought it! Anyhoo, the service manager called today and said that he would talk to Mr. Peruzzi, the owner, and try to work this out. I barely owned the car a month and they are talking 1000 dollars in repairs? C'mon?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I guess we will see what kind of dealer they are. If they really stand behind their vehicles like all of their ads say. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Why would someone buy a Lexus and neglect it? because the large majority of the consumers out there take things for granted, are misinfomred or just do not know. My father used to teach a course in highschool. He called it "Automotive Survival" It was a course geared for the average teenager to help them understand the basics of how the car operates and the basics the owner needs to do to keep it operating efficiently. Almost every kid wanted to take it. I personally think anyone (teenagaer or not) that buys a car should take a course like that. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mburnickas Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Bases on what I have read yes it has sludge but I do not know the cause. Could it be the oil sure, but without the original owner on this board, no one knows 100%. That is why I think they (your dealer) will cover it, no one to blame since they were the last owner (on paper). Next, neglect? Again I can’t say yes or no without seeing what some variables are. Based on what Lexus states,” All we ask is that you show a reasonable effort to regularly maintain your vehicle”. Everyone loves to jump onto the 3K or 5K-mile drains when even Lexus does not state that soon of an interval. Lexus states 5K for severe and 7.5K for normal. So that is 40% & 33.33% respectfully. Again these "intervals" are on the conservative side since ALL designs have this built into them. I go longer on drains using another synthetic oil and my oil tests fine when compared to my un-used sample. Been doing this since 1995 on all my engines and I have almost 40K miles on this method on my ES. Is it for everyone nope, but it works. And in most times, it works better, IF, your oil is up-to-speed in the proper areas. So far I have seen no other oil test posted on this forum with their Lexus to date. And if you did, don’t assume (you know what that means) if you have some delta in miles compared to my oil analysis that you will have that same delta in wear, metal etc. Does not work that way. Also look at the oil you are using. That makes a HUGE difference. So I would not go blaming some interval here. Most people who buy these cars (these are low entry models) do not care about the up-keep, let alone what it would cost to repair. It is like changing a flat tire I look at it as “seeing how fast I can do it this time. Some people don’t know or care and will call a tow truck for $50. Either was is not wrong. If you have the $$$$$, not doing anything is even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKperformance Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Why would someone buy a Lexus and neglect it? because the large majority of the consumers out there take things for granted, are misinfomred or just do not know. My father used to teach a course in highschool. He called it "Automotive Survival" It was a course geared for the average teenager to help them understand the basics of how the car operates and the basics the owner needs to do to keep it operating efficiently. Almost every kid wanted to take it. I personally think anyone (teenagaer or not) that buys a car should take a course like that. steviej Funny enough i used to teach my highschool class for my teacher. but along the same lines as you mentioned but totally offtopic. I belive everyone who has Kids should go to school on having them First as a law before they get their new toy. Too many parents have no clue what they are getting themselves into ,kind of like cars but way more repocutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 sk, i couldn't agree with you more on the parenting class. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 16, 2004 Author Share Posted September 16, 2004 Okay, now that I have stopped swearing and being *&^%%&*(!!!! The Service Tech guy said that it would need Valve Stem Seals and that it would cost $1600!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So far, I have been on the phone with five people from the dealership. The sales manager said that he would try to work this out now with the Service Manager!! I feel like I am getting strung along or in this case, SCREWED!!!!! Especially when the sales manager said that ....."maybe we could go havsies or split the cost" They know they messed up, so I finally called Lexus Customer Service and now I have to wait 3-5 days until someone from corporate calls me back to see if they could offer some aid. Any thoughts as to how willing Lexus Corp is to helping the less fortunate? Or, is it like Bill Lumberg and I feel like Peter Gibbons!!!!! -Brian "That's my red stapler.....!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianpavlovic Posted September 16, 2004 Author Share Posted September 16, 2004 Just wondering if a new PCV Valve could have helped as well? -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviej Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 is the servicing dealership the same dealership you bought the car from? I think I missed that point somewhere. If it is, then find out what kind of warranty they offered on the sale? If it is not, then have you discussed this with the dealeship you bought the car from? Stay on top of corporate and the dealership that your car is at. steviej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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