Is It Too Late To Switch To Synthetic Oil?

monarch

Posted July 23, 2004

Seems like car manufacturers would eventually pull their head outa their !Removed! and recommend 5-7K Oil drains using "Synthetic oil" ONLY.
Petroleum based oil simpy can NOT handle the higher cylinder head temps and various other newer engine designs.

All 2004 Lexus owners manuals recommend oil changes every 6 months or 5,000 miles and urge owners to use genuine Toyota Motor Oil: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/oiltoy.jpg which is a conventional oil that costs only $1.39 - $1.99 a quart at Toyota dealers.

This is a simple, risk free way for all Lexus owners to keep their engines running like new for hundreds of thousands troublefree miles. Only Toyota parts, filters, fluids and lubes are Toyota tested and approved to Toyotas legendary high standards and that's why using them is the most risk free way to maintain a Toyota.

SW03ES

Posted July 23, 2004

Gotta service it at the dealer too right?

Nunyabiz

Posted July 23, 2004

This is a simple, risk free way for all Lexus owners to keep their engines running like new for hundreds of thousands troublefree miles. Only Toyota parts, filters, fluids and lubes are Toyota tested and approved to Toyotas legendary high standards and that's why using them is the most risk free way to maintain a Toyota.

Not much can be said about this but BULLSHYTE

BTW your Genuine Toyota motor oil is nothing but rebadged Exxon Superflo oil.

monarch

Posted July 27, 2004

BTW your Genuine Toyota motor oil is nothing but rebadged Exxon Superflo oil.

They don't look the same so they are likely chemically different: http://www.saber.net/~monarch/toyoil.jpg

steviej

Posted July 27, 2004

According to the Toyota Parts counter that I was at today, ExxonMobil does in fact manufacturer the sacred Genuine Toyota Motor Oil. Of course, the detergents and other additives are to Toyotas specifications.

steviej

Nunyabiz

Posted July 28, 2004

They are pretty much identical, both definitely made by Exxonmobil, and most certainly not any magic elixir.

You want the best oil for your lexus then use Synthetic, if you like that Toyota oil then buy Mobils top product Mobil 1, not that cheap Toyota petroleum stuff.

Personally I like Amsoil, but Mobil 1 is very good also, especially if you are changing it in less than 7500 Miles then it makes no difference, both are vastly superior to ANY petroleum oil.

steviej

Posted July 28, 2004

Nunyabiz, I'm in the same boat as you. I have been using synthetic (mobil 1 5w-30) in this lex and 10w-30 in my previous SSEi. Never had a problem.

The comment about the source of the sacred Toyota brand oil relates to previous discussions in this thread and in other threads.

I might add that the Toyota person I talked to also said: "it really doesn't matter what brand oil you use, as long as it is changed at least every 5000 miles". He went on to say that the Toyota labelled oil is no better or no worse than the popular name brands.

I would also like to add that according to many sources, including Mobil 1 themselves, you CAN switch back and forth from synthetic to conventional as often as you would like.

steveij

monarch

Posted July 29, 2004

They are pretty much identical

A few days ago you were very certain the Toyota oil and Exxon Superflo were exactly the same. Specifically, you said: "your Genuine Toyota motor oil is nothing but rebadged Exxon Superflo oil."

And today you say: "They are pretty much identical"

I've never known the Toyota engineers tell a lie so I believe them when they say genuine Toyota Motor Oil is:

- "specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles."

- "formulated for Toyota metal and gasket surfaces."

Jaylin6998

Posted July 29, 2004

Synthetic oil is not what causes the leak. The leak is already there, the synthetic causes it to show its head. Synthetic has an extra additive in it that makes it slipperier, in order to get to more parts of your engine. It does require any flushing to change to it, just do it. There is a semi synthetic oil called High Mileage, or even High performance oil, that may not cause a super ripple in your cars leaking problems.

mburnickas

Posted July 29, 2004

They are pretty much identical

A few days ago you were very certain the Toyota oil and Exxon Superflo were exactly the same. Specifically, you said: "your Genuine Toyota motor oil is nothing but rebadged Exxon Superflo oil."

And today you say: "They are pretty much identical"

I've never known the Toyota engineers tell a lie so I believe them when they say genuine Toyota Motor Oil is:

- "specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles."

- "formulated for Toyota metal and gasket surfaces."

They are not lying at all. It is a marketing ploy that people seem to buy. It is not a lie, but it is not 100% true either. Buying their fluid/product gives some people piece of mind. If that is “your bag”, then so be it. Too bad it is just a normal fluid in an expensive Lexus bottle. Never mind that it prevents anything, has more of “this or that” then any other fluids. If it does print what is has more of or less of. Too bad their oils all pass the same standards as other API cert petro or synthetic oils respectfully.

"specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles." Could be nothing more then adding some additives to their oil. Is it good, could be but it is not needed either.

Again Toyota does not make oil, they make & sell cars.

You seem to buy and like their products, which is good for you and Lexus/Toyota. They could have good products but there are better products out there for less money or at the same value.

Nunyabiz

Posted July 29, 2004

"specially formulated by Toyota for Toyota vehicles."

LOL, you're hilarious, this catch phrase means absolutely NOTHING.

IF Toyota is saying that they MAKE the oil its a flat out LIE.

Is it made specifically for nothing but Toyota vehicles? please explain to me how any oil can be specifically made for any specific vehicle?

Toyota uses the very same materials, same gasket materials, same everything as any other car manufacturer.

What about 1970 Toyotas? 1980, 1990, 4,6,8 cyl? so just how "specific" can it be?

So if you use this oil in your Dodge it will what? Explode~~~BOOM! :o

Get a grip dude.

Oh and upon further investigation the so called "Genuine Toyota motor oil" GTMO is actually rebadged exxonmobil "Drive clean oil" my bad, :whistles:

http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedpr...iption.asp?2224

Here is how it tested against several other motor oils, (not so good IMO)

http://www.tripleplate.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7977

How about the MSDS straight from Exxonmobil stating they make Genuine Toyota oil, that be good enough for ya?

http://www.host1.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx :lol:

K now this is their "Drive clean" oil MSDS sheet, look at sect 9 "PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES" note they are both EXACTLY the same in every respect.

http://www.host1.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx

Hmmm looks like same dang address probably wont got to it, might need to click the information in yourself, under product just put "Toyota" select the top one of the 3 that come up , then do it again and put in "Drive clean" then select the first 10W40W under Drive clean oil, the MSDS is EXACTLY the same for both.

This is PRODUCT
Product Name: MOBIL DRIVE CLEAN OIL 10W-40

Product Description: Base Oil and Additives

Product Code: 480111-00, 972585

Intended Use: Engine oil

COMPANY IDENTIFICATION

Supplier: EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION

3225 GALLOWS RD.

FAIRFAX, VA. 22037 USA24 Hour Health Emergency 609-737-4411

Transportation Emergency Phone 800-424-9300

ExxonMobil Transportation No. 281-834-3296

MSDS Requests 613-228-1467

Product Technical Information 800-662-4525, 800-947-9147

"

GENERAL INFORMATION
Physical State: Liquid

Color: Amber

Odor: Marketable

Odor Threshold: N/D

IMPORTANT HEALTH, SAFETY, AND ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION

Relative Density: 0.875

Flash Point [Method]: 228°C (442°F) [ Cleveland Open Cup]

Flammable Limits (Approximate volume % in air): LEL: 0.9 UEL: 7.0

Autoignition Temperature: N/A

Boiling Point / Range: > 315.6°C (600°F)

Vapor Density (Air = 1): > 2 at 101 kPa

Vapor Pressure: < 0.013 kPa (0.1 mm Hg) at 20°C

Evaporation Rate (n-butyl acetate = 1): N/D

pH: N/A

Log Pow (n-Octanol/Water Partition Coefficient): > 3.5

Solubility in Water: Negligible

Viscosity: 96 cSt (96 mm²/sec ) at 40 °C | 14.1 cSt (14.1 mm²/sec) at100°C

Oxidizing Properties: See Sections 3, 15, 16.

OTHER INFORMATION

Freezing Point: N/D

Melting Point: N/A

Pour Point: -33°C (-27°F)

DMSO Extract (mineral oil only), IP-346: < 3 %wt

Now the MSDS for the so called "Genuine Toyota Motor oil"

PRODUCT
Product Name: TOYOTA GENUINE MOTOR OIL 10W-40

Product Description: Base Oil and Additives

Product Code: 476853-00, 972754

Intended Use: Engine oil

COMPANY IDENTIFICATION

Supplier: EXXON MOBIL CORPORATION

3225 GALLOWS RD.

FAIRFAX, VA. 22037 USA24 Hour Health Emergency 609-737-4411

Transportation Emergency Phone 800-424-9300

ExxonMobil Transportation No. 281-834-3296

MSDS Requests 613-228-1467

Product Technical Information 800-662-4525, 800-947-9147

SECTION 9 PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Typical physical and chemical properties are given below. Consult the Supplier in Section 1 for additional data.

GENERAL INFORMATION

Physical State: Liquid

Color: Amber

Odor: Marketable

Odor Threshold: N/D

IMPORTANT HEALTH, SAFETY, AND ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION

Relative Density: 0.875

Flash Point [Method]: 228°C (442°F) [ Cleveland Open Cup]

Flammable Limits (Approximate volume % in air): LEL: 0.9 UEL: 7.0

Autoignition Temperature: N/A

Boiling Point / Range: > 315.6°C (600°F)

Vapor Density (Air = 1): > 2 at 101 kPa

Vapor Pressure: < 0.013 kPa (0.1 mm Hg) at 20°C

Evaporation Rate (n-butyl acetate = 1): N/D

pH: N/A

Log Pow (n-Octanol/Water Partition Coefficient): > 3.5

Solubility in Water: Negligible

Viscosity: 96 cSt (96 mm²/sec ) at 40 °C | 14.1 cSt (14.1 mm²/sec) at100°C

Oxidizing Properties: See Sections 3, 15, 16.

OTHER INFORMATION

Freezing Point: N/D

Melting Point: N/A

Pour Point: -33°C (-27°F)

DMSO Extract (mineral oil only), IP-346: < 3 %wt

K I think we can lay the GTMO is really rebadged Exxonmobil oil to rest. It is nothing but fair to decent petroleum based oil.

Don't forget your "Genuine" Toyota oil filter which is made by "Nippon"

Your Genuine Toyota spark plugs that are made by Denso, these are precisely the very same oil filters and plugs made by these manufacturers just rebadged and with a higher price.

If you want to pay more for the EXACT same product simply because it has the word "Toyota" on it, that is of course your prerogative.

Like Mburn stated its is nothing but a marketing ploy and you fell for it Hook line and drainplug. :P

mburnickas

Posted July 29, 2004

Just looking at the numbers above, I would not use them in the N.E. states in my opinion for low temp usage. The pour point is nice but not what the real world uses. Usually you care about pumping temp. The pour point gives you the lowest point it will pour some distance in like 5 seconds (on the test). A general rule is that the pumping temp is about 20 degrees higher. So either oil above, I would NOT use them below -7 degrees without external aids in cold weather starting. Outisde of that, good luck starting in low temps.

I will take a syntheic oil over these.

Lexusfreak

Posted July 30, 2004

I'm sticking with Mobil 1 5W 30 with supersyn for my 2001 ES. Especially with the cold temps of Canadian winters! Amsoil is way too expensive up here. ake sure you use a high quality oil filter btw. :whistles:

:cheers:

jmail188

Posted August 31, 2004

Based on my experience with three Toyotas with over 200,000 miles I conclude that name brand oil, changed every 5000 miles with a new filter is adequate here in Southern California.

All three cars were overhauled at about 200,000 miles. Oil consumption prior to overhaul was typically one quart every 1500 miles. Bearings were plastigauged and found to be within the original (not the wear limit) tolerances. Bearing were reused, valves ground, new valve stem seals installed, and new rings installed. Typical oil consumption after overhaul was one quart every 3500 miles. Not up to new standards but pretty good for a minor overhaul. No doubt valve stem wear and ring groove wear are responsible for the increased oil consumption.

The 87 Camry went another 188,000 trouble free miles until it was wrecked. The other two went about 100,000 more miles and were sold.

The oils used were chosen based on what was on sale at Kragen. Filters were Fram.

monarch

Posted August 31, 2004

Based on my experience with three Toyotas with over 200,000 miles I conclude that name brand oil, changed every 5000 miles with a new filter is adequate here in Southern California.
All three cars were overhauled at about 200,000 miles. Oil consumption prior to overhaul was typically one quart every 1500 miles.

200,000 miles is just the break in period for a properly driven and serviced Toyota. I wonder what caused your valves and rings to wear so much after only 200,000 miles (if in fact they were worn)?

Lexusfreak

Posted September 1, 2004

If the car is properly maintained & driven, BOTH the engine & transmission should outlast the body of the car almost everytime & should never need an overhaul or the engine replaced! Of course there are exceptions to the rule but overall 9 (or a slightly higher ratio) out of 10 cars should be like this generally speaking. B)

:cheers:

mdscorp

Posted March 29, 2006

In addition, there is no demonstated engine wear, fuel economy or power gain benefits from using synthetic oils in Toyota engines. Therefore there is no return on the inventment for a Toyota owner to use synthetic oils.

Not so, Iv seen many test that very clearly shows that synthetic oil gives greater protection especially after just 1000-2000 miles when Petroleum oils have already lost quite a bit of their properties, especially in these engines since they have such hot cylinder head temps which has little to no effect on the synthetic and breaks down the petroleum fast.

This fast break down is VERY pronounced in "Multigrade" petroleum oils, (You know, exactly the oil recommended and no doubt what you use 5W30W) This is because 5W30W "Petroleum" oil starts its life as a 5W base oil, then large polymer chains are ADDED to get the 30W rating, those chains break down FAST especially in an engine with such high cylinder head temps, which produces small chains with an open electron charge at the ends. These ends attract grim and form SLUDGE.

Here is an interesting fairly non biased (not done by some Amsoil or Mobil salesman) post from some NASA Engineer "Tribologist" that I think explains it well enough.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/archive/index.php/t-1136.html

Also that first 15-30 secs when you start your car up in the morning especially if it is cold outside is where you get allot of your engine wear, your internal parts are reciprocating with minimal lubrication that was left from your oil residue the last time you shut off your engine. This is where synthetic becomes important. The residue of synthetic has FAR superior lubrication and viscosity properties than regular oil, allowing more protection until the pump brings more to the top of the engine. Second, synthetic maintains viscous properties at far lower temperatures than any petroleum based oil and will be pumped to the top of the engine and flow through those journals much quicker.

I personally get approx. 1 Mpg more using Amsoil 5W30W than I did using whatever petroleum based oil that was in it when I got it.

I get 1 Mpg more in my Jeep also using synthetic.

That's not much but doesn't hurt, saves me maybe $2-3 a month in fuel tops.

But in the 6 months life cycle of the oil that's about $12-18 to help offset the cost of synthetic, Plus IF I were to use petroleum I would never let it go past 3k for an oil change, with synthetic I have no worries going to 5K at all.

You will notice Im not saying let the oil go to 12-25K miles, just only WHAT THE OWNERS MANUAL RECOMMENDS which is 5-7500, which as far as im concerned in these vehicles is too far for petroleum oil, the oil simply can not handle the heat these engines put out.

I have also come to the almost obvious conclusion that one of the main problems that these 3400+ people with engine failure due to Oil gelling is that these people most likely are thinking that they are doing everything exactly right, many probably think that they are not putting hard miles on their engine so opt for up to a 7K+ oil drain interval that the OWNERS MANUAL recommends, probably using whatever "Bulk" multigrade oil the dealership is throwing in there, running it for at least 6K up to maybe 8K miles then a couple 1000 miles down the road when that petroleum oil is clogging those drain holes from the cylinder heads thus making it "appear" as though they are as much as a full 1 quart LOW, they put in another quart which is Overfilling the engine which just makes matters way worse, causing the oil to froth and oxidize way quicker. That multigrade petroleum oil was actually history 4-5K miles back.

So technically since I spend on average $45-52 for an oil change, (I buy the oil and filter) then take it to Carmax (They have certified mechanics not the $6 help you get at jiffylube) which charges $29 for a change and $21 if you bring your own, I can also usually within that 6 months get a coupon in the mail for $5-10 off an oil change that I keep and put aside, so usually $15 or so is what I spend so I don't have to screw with oil disposal, I also stand right there and watch to make sure everything is done right. The Amsoil & Filter are $32.50. ($4.50x5 +$10)

A normal (petroleum)oil change comes to be just under $32 and is good for 3K MAX. IMO

That's about 3-31/2 months. so $64 for 6 months.

I if you call it that "Let my synthetic go" for 5-6K which is 6-7months which is extremely excessive for synthetic & I guarantee my Amsoil with 5K on it is performing much better, is protecting & CLEANING my engine better, than the petroleum oil is the day after you put it in.

Regular petroleum oil change $64 for 6 months

Amsoil for 6-7 months is $45-52

THEN I save approx. $12-18 in fuel cost using synthetic for 6-7months.

lets say an average of $15 savings from the $52 oil change comes out to approx. the equivalent of $37 compared to the guaranteed $64 I would spend on petroleum based oil.

You know when you first put in that fresh (petroleum) oil how your car sounds and runs? real smooth and sweet for the first few days, well my car keeps that fresh oil change sound and feel throughout the whole 6 months, because my oil is not breaking down nearly as much every mile I drive.

Ever wonder why everyone clearly states emphatically to never put synthetic in your brand new car with 0 miles on it?

It is because petroleum breaks down and does does NOT protect your engine even close to as well as synthetic, the rings will take a long time to "seat", what causes the rings to seat? metal on metal engine WEAR. So run petroleum oil for the first 500 miles then drain it out change oil filter, put in synthetic and your GTG. That fact alone should clue you in on how much better Synthetic oil protects your engine, regardless of drain intervals.

As you can see I would actually spend MORE $$ to run petroleum based oil since there is no way I would trust any multigrade petroleum in this engine much past 3K miles but I have no problems at all trusting synthetic oil to 5-6K which is well within recommended drain intervals.

This whole discussion reminds me of some Religion Vs Reality debate, kinda funny actually.

We have the religious (petroleum users) on one side preaching out of that old bible, "believing" and having "faith" in that old petroleum oil.

Then the Atheist (synthetic users) simply going by common sense and empirical evidence and scientific fact that quite clearly is on their side.

I know what I know, others believe what they believe. B)