A/c Condenser Easily Punctured

[GaryA]

Has anyone else experienced a punctured A/C condenser in an RX300 or RX330 from small road debris?

I purchased a new 2004, RX330 from Lexus of Tampa Bay on June 30 of this year. For the first week we did just local driving.

On Friday, July 9, we headed north up I-75 on our way to Indiana. Just north of Tifton, GA, we noticed the A/C temp getting warmer. Within a few miles it was obvious that something had happened to the A/C.

We stopped at a Lexus dealer in Macon, Ga. They looked at it, said it was "damage" not covered under warranty and presented us with an estimate for many hundreds of dollars. The mechanic showed me the "damage." They didn't have the parts anyway. They charged me $77.25 labor to look at the car. With the outside temp at 93, on a Friday afternoon, we turned around and drove home.

Saturday morning, I took photos of the damage and have posted one of them at this location with the "damage" circled in yellow:

A/C Condenser Puncture

We then drove to the dealership where we bought the vehicle. They came back with basically the same response - "damage" not covered under warranty.

If you look at the photo, the area of damage is less than 1/16" in size, but the object hit one of the veins and ruptured the condenser. 90% of the bare metal shown in the photo is harmless damage done to one of the cooling fins. The damage to the horizontal cooling vein that was ruptured is approximately the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen!!

I view this as a possible engineering design flaw and/or condenser quality issue. I think the condenser should either have been protected with additional baffling or the condenser is not made strong enough to withstand even the slightest impact.

Has anyone had a similar problem?

I'll be back at the dealer Monday morning to continue my fight.:chairshot:

At this point I am extremely unhappy with both dealerships - Butler Lexus in Macon for billing their labor and Tampa Bay Lexus for only making a minimal consession offer to repair the vehicle.

Look at the photo for yourself and see if you wouldn't have a reasonable expectation that the vehicle should have been better designed to absorb such a tiny hit without such major damage!!

Thanks,

Gary A

[VGR]

Is there oil around the hole in the condenser? Compressor oil should have leaked out along with the refrigerant. If not, the hole is extremely tiny and could possibly be

patched with a sealer / glue of some kind that is appropriate for aluminum. If the hole was successfully patched, the system could be recharged with between two and three $3.84 cans of R134a refrigerant (available at Walmart) to restore cooling performance. Also the receiver-drier would need to be replaced (this part is about $40) and the system vaccuumed down to remove atmospheric moisture contaimination.

Condenser leaks from road debris are very rare, but always possible.

[GaryA]

Beats me - how do I tell the difference between oil & coolant? It all just looks like dripped fluid to me. Besides, we drove back at highway speeds (after the mechanic in Macon assured me that driving it would not do any further damage) which dried off most of the fluid. The mechanic in Tampa on Saturday had to add some coolant back into it just to find the hole. It ran out almost immediately.

Thanks for the reply,

Gary A

[customrx]

I would take the rx to the dealer and tell the to stick it up their a$$....you paid all that money to get treated like that?I think not!!!!

[GaryA]

Thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately, July in Florida is no time to be without A/C. I pushed it all the way up to the Executive General Manager (on Monday) who oversees 2 dealerships (Lexus of Tampa Bay and Lexus of Clearwater) and he would not budge on their offer to pay for the parts and I pay for the labor. So, yesterday (Wednesday) they received the new condenser and I had them put it in. So, now I am out almost another $400.

After the GM turned me down on Monday, I called Lexus Corp Cust Service and filed a complaint. They will get back to me in 3 to 5 days. I also had a consultation with a Consumer Fraud attorney, which was worth the consultation fee just to find out my options, even if most would be very costly.

While I was at the dealership yesterday, I compared the front ends of the RX300 with the RX330. There are slight differences, but there is still that big open area under the front bumper that has no screening, baffles, mesh or any type of grillwork. The A/C condenser sits totally exposed just waiting for road debris to come flying in.

One used 2002, RX300 had a condenser that was loaded with crap. It really showed signs of having been hit many times by debris. The previous owner was just plain lucky he didn't get a puncture.

I have already told everyone at the dealership that they have lost a customer. I refuse to go back there for any service work - they are not getting one more dime of my money. I will drive however far I have to, to go to another dealership. When I get some time, I'm going to create a web site with my story and a warning to other potential buyers. I am also considering silk screened t-shirts with something like "ask me about my Lexus." I am telling anyone who will listen, how I have been treated.

Gary A

[customrx]

Please list the name of the dealership and the GM that is giving you a hard time......Citiy and state as well.....

[GaryA]

The dealership was in my last post, but here's the whole thing:

I bought from Lexus of Tampa Bay - Tampa, FL

But the same GM also runs Lexus of Clearwater - Clearwater, FL

He is:

Richard A. Nimphie

Executive General Manager

Their web sites are:

www.lexusoftampabay.com

and

www.lexusofclearwater.com

They are both part of the AutoNation network of dealers.

Gary A

[GaryA]

***************UPDATE***************

I finally received a callback from Lexus Corp Customer Satisfaction. They are sticking to their guns and saying that my problem was road hazard, not covered under warranty!! They refuse to even consider or listen to me when I try to explain that to A/C condenser is too exposed and very vulnerable to damage from road debris.

So... I am appropriately filling out their customer satisfaction survey cards, responding to their "thank you for buying a Lexus" letters and making a second appointment with my consumer fraud attorney. I have also cancelled the service contract I purchased through the dealer when I bought the vehicle. All I can do is see that they don't get another dime of my service money.

Good luck to the rest of you RX owners!

Gary A

[GaryA]

While searching the Internet, I found another RX owner with the same complaint. His post was dated today - 08/08/2004 and read:

I have the same problem:

One day the wife complains that the A/C isn't working.

I check all the obvious stuff and then decide to take it into the dealer.

They report that the condensor is punctured. Unfortunately, I picked it up late at night and wasn't able to have the tech show me where. Cost of replacement = $900/part + $500/Labor = $1400.00!!!!

No WAY was I paying this for a two year old car. So I mulled on it for a while and decided to make SURE there was a hole as I couldn't see exactly where it was punctured.

I connected up a Recharge kit and started adding pressure until the compressor activated. As soon as that compressor kicked on, A/C refrigerant started spraying all over my leg from the condenser.... it's busted.

I think I can replace the condenser myself as it's not mounted in there with but a few screws and a couple hoses. The part can be purchased online for about $260.00. You'd only have to maybe remove the front bumper.

My only question is.... is there anything else that needs to be replaced such as the dryer?

Once I do fix this, I will be adding a mesh guard of some type to the bottom intake vent... it's pretty huge and too low to have no protection.

Sorry to hear about your problem, but you're not alone. Thankfully this summer has been mild here in upstate NJ... Now my wife WANTS to drive the "yucky car" that has working A/C though...

I'll bet there are plenty more RX owners out there with the same complaint, but they just haven't posted or come forward in some other way. I wish I knew how to find out.

Gary A

[mightydiesel]

I just had my condensor punctured by road debri as well. very costly if dealer does the job. I am looking up information to do the job myself as well as replacing the front grill.

[Grumpa72]

Well, like Bill C. used to say, "I feel your pain." However, it definetly does not appear to be a warranty item, as both dealers state. I also doubt that it is a design flaw since it sure looks like every other condensor I have seen. I think you got hit by the "magic bullet", that one piece of debris that is thrown up by the right vehicle at the right time to hit your car in the right place to do that damage.

I don't think that the one dealer should have charged you labor but, in all honesty, I think you are going to bite the bullet on this one. I will suggest that an aftermarket condensor may suit your needs as well as the OEM unit. My Acura Legend had a failed condensor after 11 years and I replaced it with aftermarket for 1/3 the cost of OEM. Still works and cools like new after I did all the work. I will admit that I could have pulled a vacuum longer on the Legend but I did what I could.

Gary

[Cheerdad]

Gary

I’ve been in the HVAC field for over 23 years and you are correct about pulling a good vacuum. The A/C in you Legend may run for many years while the next guy’s compressor would lockup within the year. If you keep everything clean, dry and don’t have the system broke open to the atmosphere to long, you may just get lucky.

Dave

[mehullica]

Hey GaryA, so if you run over a nail and get a flat tire,or a blowout, do you want Lexus to pay for a new tire? Or a rock flying from a truck tire that cracks your windshield, you want Lexus to pay for that also? Your claim of a design flaw is ridiculous. How many Rx's are out on the road? How many have people have holes in the condenser from road debris? You got unlucky and need a condenser. All cars need open scoops to allow the condenser and radiator to get airflow. You were in the right place at the wrong time.

[benjaminhigginbotham]

I had the exact same problem on a 2004 RX330... The sad thing is that because of this I'm thinking I may not purchase another Lexus (was thinking about an '07 LS).

The lack of protection for the condensor is a bad design in my opinion. This is fine, I'll pay the damages (and I did), but it put a bitter taste in my mouth. A bad design from Lexus cost me about $800.00 in repairs. Bad PR move on their part, in my humble opinion.

That's the beauty of choice though. One vendor *BLEEP*es me off, I can simply pick up and move to another.

[SKperformance]

I have to agree with some of the above.

It is a road hazard and is in no way any liability for Lexus to fix.

If you want to protect the rad and grille areas more use mesh from a screen door and attach it to inside the bumper it will protect it from debris and bugs getting caught.

Use the nylon mesh not the metal one.

[tmastres]

First let me say that Gary, I appreciate your tenaciousness in the matter. While I'm not sure I agree with the design flaw charge, I can easily see myself reacting the same way if it were me. What I think is important to note is that your dealership was willing to split the cost of the repair. While I realize that this fact doesnt satisty you, Gary, its a sign to everone that if you have a questionable problem, its worth the effort to talk it through with the dealer. It soulds like several people have had this problem and paid the full price for repair.

[sthomasa]

I have had the same problem twice with my 400h. Once at 1000 miles and again at 5500. I just brought the car home again yesterday and looking at the new condenser, I see a mark. I'm documenting it her now incase I'm going back for #3.

This could be a major design problem. I live in a city and no gravel roads.

[jiv]

On 11/18/06 I purchased a 2005 Lexus RX330 from JM Lexus in Margate, Florida. It was sold with a Lexus Certified warranty, as well as a 3mo/3kmi 'EVERYTHING' WARRANTY, which my salesperson told me at the time of purchase would 'cover any damage to the vehicle in the first 3mo or 3,000 miles'. On 12/8 as I drove my daughter and granddaughter to Disney World, the engine began to steam. It was towed to Lexus of Orlando who refused to repair it under warranty claiming that a piece of the reflector from the road punctured the radiator to the air conditioning and it would cost me about $1000 to repair. I wrote an email to my salesperson at JM Lexus who called me and told me not to worry--I needed to drive my car back to JM Lexus and it would be repaired for free under the EVERYTHING WARRANTY I had been sold at the time of purchase. Later that evening I was called by his manager (who was very rude and demeaning) and who said that my salesperson was mistaken when he told me the repair would be covered under the EVERYTHING WARRANTY, calling what happened a 'accident' involving road debris. He insisted that I drive my car into JM Lexus. I was left with no car for the vacation, but when I retreived my car from Lexus of Orlando I drove it to JM Lexus with no air conditioning. I turned the car in to JM Lexus (who finally gave me a loaner). They had it for 4 days. Then I was advised it would be repaired only if I paid more than $400. When I responded that I would not pay for the repair as it was covered under the EVERYTHING WARRANTY, the used car manger became very rude again accusing me of not fully reading the print on the back of my contract or other paperwork implying that it limited the coverage provided by the EVERYTHING WARRANTY. Well, I had read the paper work that I was given, including the fine print on the back of the sales contract and there was no mention of the EVERYTHING WARRANTY except the promise on the front that the car was purchase with a 3,000mi/3 mo EVERYTHING WARRANTY. There were NO exclusions to the warranty anywhere in the paperwork. Nonetheless, he demanded return of the loaner car, which they picked up immediately. JM Lexus has refused to repair my car, refused to honor the EVERYTHING WARRANTY, taken back the loaner and refused to give me a refund. I have now begun to file complaints and research the issued and note that on file with the NHTSA is an identical complaint in respect of 'road debris' allegedly damaging the radiator to the air conditions with respect to the 2005 Lexus RX 330. In addition, I was advised by an independent auto mechanic (as was the complainant to the NHTSA) that there is a design flaw that is the ultimate cause of the issue as the grill should protect the radiator from items such as refelctors and small pebbles normally found on road surfaces. I am also now informed that Lexus has, since the 2005 RX 330 model, changed the design of the grill to prevent this issue, illustrating knowledge of the design defect. In any event, whether the issue is a design defect that would be covered under the Lexus Certified Warranty, or not, the EVERYTHING WARRANTY should have covered it. JM Lexus has my money (I paid cash in full for the balance after my trade in), my trade in, the car I purchased and refuses to do what they are obligated to do.

[RX300 skier]

I too had a puncture in my RX300 a/c condenser that appears it might be from rock damage OR might be a SCAM? (See below). Estimate is $1330 to fix. Seems high. Comprehensive insurance cover? Lastly, seems like a design flaw to me.

Several questions and comments:

1) Is this estimate reasonable? Some details:

Condenser $423

Replace 2.1 hours $187

Receiver Dryer $244

Replace 1.9 hours $169

Evacuate/recharge $125

Freon $26

Dye $11

Oil $11

Diagnosis $76 (already paid this)

Total inc tax $1330

Seems high all around. Condensers on the web go for about $160. Is there a problem with them?

Any better shops to recommend in the San Jose CA area?

2) I looked at some web sites for parts and some say the dryer is included on the condenser. What's the story? Is the drier included on the condenser and if so then why is there an extra 1.9 hours labor and $244 part charge to fix it in my estimate?

3) Any experience with comprehensive car insurance covering this damage? I read some posts indicating it might be covered. Anyone try to submit a claim?

4) Finally what's to stop the car repair shop from punching a hole in the condenser? I looked at the damage in a magnifying glass and it looks like someone took a punch to create the hole? Sure seems like it could be an easy scam. Anyone have experience with that? Here's a picture of what my damage looks like.

See attached file for picture

5) Sure seems like a design flaw to me when so road debris is free to hit the condenser. As you can see, even ignoring the hole, there is plenty of damage to the cooling fins. Why not put a simple grill over it to protect it? I saw another post suggesting how to make one yourself which is a good idea but should be done by the manufacturer!

Thanks in advance for your comments and insight.

Rob

[RX300 skier]

Everything you need to know about RX's A/C condenser

If you have a problem with a leaking A/C condenser from rock damage, the following detailed post will help as I just went through the experience.

Design problem with RX's?

Yes thanks, I did see that reply about jerry rigging a mesh under the front bumper to protect the condenser. Sure seems like we shouldn't have to do that to protect it properly! Seems like a design problem to me. Maybe the condenser should at least have a stronger mesh built in on the front as the fins are very fragile. Even bugs damage the fins as my fins were all very smushed in the places exposed.

Shop Fraud?

The dent was very small. (1-2mm) I almost wonder if the shop punched it in so they could ring up a big repair bill?? I looked at it under a powerful magnifying glass and it looks like it was! Of course, hard to prove. Might be best to try and watch the mechanic diagnose your A/C problem if you can.

Estimate for repairs including unnecessary items

I later discovered the shop estimate I got included parts ($243.88) and labor (1.9 hours - $169.10) to install a receiver/drier part in addition to parts and labor for the condenser ($423.40/$186.90). Turns out the receiver drier is included in the condenser so over $400 of the estimate was extraneous! Estimate also included dye ($10.50) which isn't needed and should only be added if needed to diagnose a leak. My leak was already "diagnosed."

When I confronted the shop owner (Bill's Auto Electric in Campbell, CA) he said he couldn't possibly spend the time to check to see if a drier is needed since every car is different and it would impact his profitability too much if he had to do that. What a joke! I quickly ended the call and simply said, "well then I won't take any more of your time." Instead I'll spend my time following up with a complaint to BBB.

Insurance coverage

After searching other posts, I discovered insurance may cover the damage under comprehensive. Assuming it was rock damage since I couldn't prove intentional damage, I pursued a claim with my insurance. It was approved and I was only responsible for my deductable. They also said it won't effect rates since it's comprehensive.

More reasonable estimate for repair from body shop

I then contacted the body shop recommended by insurance company and got a MUCH more reasonable estimate. $486.57 vs. the $1328.92 from Bill's Auto Electric for the same job. To be fair, body shop used after market condenser accounting for $160 of savings. But still WAY cheaper. Moral shop around!

Body shops can replace the condenser and the nice bonus is that they usually include a car wash.

Non OEM Condenser issue

Which brings me to the non OEM condenser issue I have. The OEM condenser is black. When I picked up my car, the after market condenser they used is silver and you can see it as it stands out behind the grill and under the bumper. I wish they had told me in advance of this difference. Other than that, I was very happy with the service provided, so I mentioned it when picking up my car but didn't formally complain. Maybe I'm being over sensitive. Has anyone else had an issue with the after market condenser color? Should I pursue getting it fixed with the OEM condenser that is black?