K & N Air Filter/battery Disconnect

lexus-lover · June 27, 2004

Will be putting K & N air fileter in my ES 330. I know I have to disconnect the battery in order for the engine computer to re-set for new air-fuel ratios to take effect. What other settings will I loose, if any?

monarch · June 27, 2004

Some K&N users go back to the factory filters once they find out - the hard way - the consequences of using K&N's

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread...threadid=124324

lexus-lover · June 27, 2004

Food for thought - rethinking putting K & N filter in the car. Much thanks.

amf1932 · June 27, 2004

Leave it alone and continue using the stock air filter setup. You'll be happier in the long run. IMHO

tundra-lover · June 28, 2004

It's no big deal? I don't know what these guys are talking about? You should disconnect the battery, but the computer will take a few hundred miles to change the air/fuel mixture. Some people will over oil the filter causing the mass air sensor to be covered in a film of oil. All you need to do is clean it off, or try not to oil so much.

I can kind of see what they would be talking about, as the hp numbers aren't that great, but I like cleaning mine instead of buying new ones. They have done tests with several manufactures in the past with claims of different contaminants in the oil? It's always going to be better with stock, but if you change your oil you shouldn't have a problem.

steviej · June 28, 2004

lexus-lover, its a decision you have to make. I have had a K&N since 15k miles. Have 43k now. Not once has any sign of a problem arisen. I will be cleaning the filter soon and reoiling it. I have done this before and will be sure not to overoil it.

However, time will tell if the re-oiling will be a problem. But I can say that there has not been a problem in 28k miles.

It is a decision that you and only you can make for your car. Monarch (saber) has cited a link to an ongoing thread on ClubLexus that discusses the reasons for some people removing the filter and only using stock filters. There are two sides presented (keep it or remove it) there too.

-If you are looking for a hp increase...forget it. Won't happen with this filter.

-If you are looking for a mpg increase....it is possible, several people have achieved this including myself.

-If you are looking for a way to never buy a stock filter again.....you found it.

Your car is an 04, are there any cautions or precautions from Lexus on the airbox or in the manual? My 02 did not have any. Things may have changed in 2 years. Check carefully as you do not want to do anything to void a warranty if a problem does occur.

To answer you initial question.....no you do not have to disconnect the battery. The ECU will automatically adjust to the knew air flow rate accordingly. It may take a tank or two to see any improvement in gas mileage.

steviej

Lexusfreak · June 28, 2004

I'm in agreement with steviej on this one too! I have not had ANY issues with my K & N air filters (my 3rd filter in as many cars). I'm also very careful not to over-oil.......and there are no warnings on my air box either ;) :) 12,000 miles & counting.

:cheers:

jragosta · June 28, 2004

I used to do R&D for a filtration company. I spent some time on K&N's web site a while back. Let's just say that they're practicing voodoo science. That's based on my PhD in Chemistry and years developing new filters to be used in extremely critical requirements - everything from engine prefiltration to pharmaceutical to nuclear applications.

Personally, based on my professional filtration experience, I wouldn't buy them. Just like anything else, there may be some people who see a small benefit and others who see negatives. But based on the science, you have several competing outcomes:

1. It is quite possible that there is a tiny increase in HP. Their web site claims up to 4%. That's probably in the right range - especially 'up to'. Figure an average gain of half that - 2%. I doubt very much that anyone here without a dynamometer can see that. Heck, even if you have a dynamometer, you're going to have a hard time seeing it - since the margin of error is probably close to that.

2. Risk of damage. First, overoiling is going to cause you a mess - a fouled sensor for sure. Not to mention the risk of engine damage if these filters do not perform as promised. Based on the filtration curves they've claimed, I'm very skeptical of the ability of this filter to perform up to the stock filter's level of filtration.

3. At the very least, you've just voided your warranty.

To me, it's just not worth it for the infinitesimal HP gains.

lexus-lover · June 28, 2004

Call me chicken, but there seems to be too many unknowns here for me. Will stick with the stock filter for the time being, but can always do something in the future if I see more definitive evidence to do so. Thanks to everyone for all of the comments.

branshew · June 28, 2004

Personally, I would advise against it as well. I have read many posts on other luxury/performance car sites that I frequent from time to time for my Benz. Many people on the other forums have said that it will eventually affect your MAF sensor.

Mercedes Benz had some problems with their MAF sensors on their C Class models for a while and Most people that I encountered w/ K&N filters on their C had their MAF sensors die out much faster than should be expected.

Although the sensor in your Lexus is probably more reliable than the Mercedes version, I wouldn't risk it. You really won't notice much (if any) difference in the overall performance by just changing the air filter. If you were going with a bunch of performance mods and really wanted to increase airflow, then it would be a different story.

jragosta · June 28, 2004

lexus-lover, its a decision you have to make. I have had a K&N since 15k miles. Have 43k now. Not once has any sign of a problem arisen. I will be cleaning the filter soon and reoiling it. I have done this before and will be sure not to overoil it.
However, time will tell if the re-oiling will be a problem. But I can say that there has not been a problem in 28k miles.

It is a decision that you and only you can make for your car. Monarch (saber) has cited a link to an ongoing thread on ClubLexus that discusses the reasons for some people removing the filter and only using stock filters. There are two sides presented (keep it or remove it) there too.

-If you are looking for a hp increase...forget it. Won't happen with this filter.

-If you are looking for a mpg increase....it is possible, several people have achieved this including myself.

-If you are looking for a way to never buy a stock filter again.....you found it.

Your car is an 04, are there any cautions or precautions from Lexus on the airbox or in the manual? My 02 did not have any. Things may have changed in 2 years. Check carefully as you do not want to do anything to void a warranty if a problem does occur.

I don't think Lexus needs to put a specific warning on their engine. The owners manual specifies that only authorized spare parts are covered. If you put this filter in and mess up your sensor, they're certainly going to fall back on that clause.

steviej · June 29, 2004

I don't think Lexus needs to put a specific warning on their engine. The owners manual specifies that only authorized spare parts are covered. If you put this filter in and mess up your sensor, they're certainly going to fall back on that clause.

First, jragosta, with your expert Chemistry and filter experience, given a brand new ES330 or any other luxury car. Do you think the filter will mess up the sensor(s) before or after the initial warranty runs out? The filter comes oiled from the factory so it won't need to be reoiled until after the warranty runs out (50,000 miles). So either way, if the sensor goes after 50,000 miles, the owner is paying for it. On the same note, is a Fram air filter or an STP filter an "authorized spare part". Funny how they don't list what is and what isn't an authorized spare part in the DIY maintenance items. In my 02 manual, the only item that is specifically stated is Toyota T-IV tranny fluid.

Second, I have had one 02 sensor go. I doubt it was due to the K&N. I have heard that Lexus/Toyota has a very large batch of 02 sensors that were giving out prematurely. My point is that the K&N was in place and my service manager knew all about it. I have even placed the STOP sticker provided with the K&N on my air box. The sensor was replaced under warranty without a flinch, question or hesitiation from my dealer. They didn't even try to use the K&N as an excuse to not do the warranty replacement. Maybe just my dealer, who knows.

I haven't had a problem in any car that I have put a K&N in, but that is just my experience. I trust that.

Again, it all comes down to what each owner is comfortable with.

This discussion (Stock Air Filter vs Reusable/Reoilable Fitler) comes under the same heading as:

Synthetic Oil vs Conventional Oil

Long Life (Red) Coolant vs Traditional Green Coolant

Tastes Great vs Less Filling

steviej

SKperformance · June 29, 2004

lol stevie

I have nothing else to say

I use a K&N but a cone filter not a drop in.

DO i think the smaller particles of dirt make a difference compared to where it is going ,a 1400 degree oven covered with sparks carbon and slamming metal, I really don't think so.

A drop in if over oiled may cause problems but that is general knowledge as much as the idiot who ate mcdonalds for 30 days got fat.......duhh lets all make a stupid movie , atleast micheal moore comes up with something worthwhile to watch.

So if you want to save a few MPG or cash on replacing filters even the enviorment side go right ahead, but get someone to show you how with a proper recharge kit if you don;t

PS: i did have MAF problems, becuase when i was beta testing a system on a dyno my filter FELL off and got dirty, took me a month to figure out to clean it,that was 7 years ago.

jragosta · June 29, 2004

I don't think Lexus needs to put a specific warning on their engine. The owners manual specifies that only authorized spare parts are covered. If you put this filter in and mess up your sensor, they're certainly going to fall back on that clause.

First, jragosta, with your expert Chemistry and filter experience, given a brand new ES330 or any other luxury car. Do you think the filter will mess up the sensor(s) before or after the initial warranty runs out? The filter comes oiled from the factory so it won't need to be reoiled until after the warranty runs out (50,000 miles). So either way, if the sensor goes after 50,000 miles, the owner is paying for it. On the same note, is a Fram air filter or an STP filter an "authorized spare part". Funny how they don't list what is and what isn't an authorized spare part in the DIY maintenance items. In my 02 manual, the only item that is specifically stated is Toyota T-IV tranny fluid.

Second, I have had one 02 sensor go. I doubt it was due to the K&N. I have heard that Lexus/Toyota has a very large batch of 02 sensors that were giving out prematurely. My point is that the K&N was in place and my service manager knew all about it. I have even placed the STOP sticker provided with the K&N on my air box. The sensor was replaced under warranty without a flinch, question or hesitiation from my dealer. They didn't even try to use the K&N as an excuse to not do the warranty replacement. Maybe just my dealer, who knows.

I haven't had a problem in any car that I have put a K&N in, but that is just my experience. I trust that.

Again, it all comes down to what each owner is comfortable with.

This discussion (Stock Air Filter vs Reusable/Reoilable Fitler) comes under the same heading as:

Synthetic Oil vs Conventional Oil

Long Life (Red) Coolant vs Traditional Green Coolant

Tastes Great vs Less Filling

steviej

I disagree.

You can pretend that it's simply a matter of personal taste if you wish, but it's not. It's a technical matter which can be answered scientifically. There are tests which can be run and the difference can be measured.

Granted, it's going to be a matter of instant failure on the K&N. Nor is it a matter of EVERY car with K&N is going to have a problem. The number of problems is going to be small with any filter. But the facts are pretty easy to see.

1. Even K&N claims no more than a 4% improvement in HP (Max). That's going to be unnoticeable by almost anyone.

2. K&N's filtration claims are bogus. They are selling a product that does not meet the standards I'd expect of a high quality filter. This part isn't a matter of personal opinion - it's a scientific assessment based on a PhD and many years designing high performance filters.

3. If you add too much oil, you're going to damage your engine (or, at the very least, the air sensor).

4. If you add too little oil, the filtration capability of the filter will suffer.

5. Since you're putting oil into the air intake system - which is clearly not meant to be there, Lexus would be within its rights to void the warranty on anything related. Some dealers are more lenient than others, but there's not doubt that Lexus could do it. It's not the same as using alternative paper filters - those specifically claim to meet OEM standards. K&N doesn't.

Now, all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change the facts. You may be lucky - and so may other people. But there ARE facts in the world that aren't changed by your wish that everything is a matter of 'tastes great, less filling'.

tundra-lover · June 29, 2004

Its kind of funny how this argument comes up on every vehicle related site! We will always have two kinds of poeple: Conservative (dyno oil, paper filter, stock everything etc..) and the more Extreme who use things to add more power, better looks, and go out on a limb and live a little with some synthetic oil or some drop springs.

With my vehicles, some would have called me crazy with what I've done. Its just how I am, and don't care what anybody else thinks. I will always want more of something, just because I can. So, what! I'll buy a re-oilable filter any day of the week. I've never had a problem for the past 10 years I've run them, and don't really care if do. I've heard all the facts, and seen all the analysis- its not that big of a deal.

jragosta · June 29, 2004

Its kind of funny how this argument comes up on every vehicle related site! We will always have two kinds of poeple: Conservative (dyno oil, paper filter, stock everything etc..) and the more Extreme who use things to add more power, better looks, and go out on a limb and live a little with some synthetic oil or some drop springs.
With my vehicles, some would have called me crazy with what I've done. Its just how I am, and don't care what anybody else thinks. I will always want more of something, just because I can. So, what! I'll buy a re-oilable filter any day of the week. I've never had a problem for the past 10 years I've run them, and don't really care if do. I've heard all the facts, and seen all the analysis- its not that big of a deal.

Actually, what you have are two types of people:

Those who know what they're talking about and those who don't.

Those who don't understand the science involved consistently amaze me with their ability to dream up all sorts of snake oil nonsense - and their ability to ignore facts. It happened with wire mesh under your carbeurator, water injection systems, and so on. Every year or so, someone comes up with some amazing 'breatkthrough' that magically improves fuel economy, reduces emissions, improves performance and so on. It just happens to be that in each case some guy working in his garage developes this magical technology that the auto industry (which spends in excess of $1 billion per year on R&D) can't manage to duplicate.

If you're happy with your fantasies, feel free. But please stop pretending that it's a factual, scientiific solution. It isn't.

SKperformance · June 29, 2004

A K&N true claim to fame is that it is a reduced vacume load on the engine,unless you have a 1000hp engin being stifled will you see any real gains in HP

The funny thing you mention about the oil not supposed to be in the engine ,is that well it is supposed to have oil in their ( but i know what you mean i am just being a sarcastic !Removed! for a second)

Also with the pcv system it actually does reintroduce oil into the intake system ( small amounts over time but none the less oil will be burned through a natural engine process.

A drop in filter as mentioned is of little gains with just as little detremental effects unless grossly misused by over charging it,but as long as you give it a good couple of swings around it will expell the excess oil before it can become a problem.

tundra-lover · June 29, 2004

Thanks for the input jragosta! No pretending here? (The kettle is black)

btw: My fantasies include women.

steviej · June 30, 2004

If you're happy with your fantasies, feel free. But please stop pretending that it's a factual, scientiific solution. It isn't.

The fantasy filter that is in my air box kinda felt real, looked real......maybe it is not even there and my whole life is a fantasy. I guess, according to jragosta, my entire experience of 3 cars and 3 K&N filters and no problems is a fantasy.

Driver, stop the automotive world, I'm done pretending and I want to get off!!!!!!

No seriously, jragosta, I commend you on your scientific knowledge and PhD. I am of scientific training, too. I am also of the personalitly that likes to think for myself and experiment, that is the heart of science. OK, I may chance a sensor, I may not, I haven't yet.

Just because someone doesn't follow your school of thought does not mean they are any less of a knowledgable person. Please DO NOT imply that!

We have been down this discussion road before. My facts are my facts from my REAL life and from my REAL cars and my REAL wallet.

1. I have not dyno-ed my car so I don't know what HP increase there was (up to 4%) IF ANY. I doubt that there was any. I didn't buy the K&N for that.

2. I have never had to buy a replacement paper filter from any dealer or any autoparts store. Reason #1, small cost savings.

3. I did pick up a slight mpg increase with every car I have used a K&N. Reason #2, This resulted/results in a modest savings at the pump when viewed over years that the K&N was in use in each car.

No fantasy there.

The bottom lines is simple:

-I will use what air filter I want to in my car. Your soapbox preaching won't change that.

-You will use what air filter you want to in your car. My "fantasy thinking" won't change that.

We are both intelligent and knowledgable people that are smart enough to undertake our own research and make our own decisions based on the facts that we have compiled.

steviej

Lexusfreak · June 30, 2004

I couldn't have said it better myself steviej! :D B)

:cheers:

jragosta · June 30, 2004

If you're happy with your fantasies, feel free. But please stop pretending that it's a factual, scientiific solution. It isn't.

The fantasy filter that is in my air box kinda felt real, looked real......maybe it is not even there and my whole life is a fantasy. I guess, according to jragosta, my entire experience of 3 cars and 3 K&N filters and no problems is a fantasy.

Driver, stop the automotive world, I'm done pretending and I want to get off!!!!!!

No seriously, jragosta, I commend you on your scientific knowledge and PhD. I am of scientific training, too. I am also of the personalitly that likes to think for myself and experiment, that is the heart of science. OK, I may chance a sensor, I may not, I haven't yet.

Just because someone doesn't follow your school of thought does not mean they are any less of a knowledgable person. Please DO NOT imply that!

We have been down this discussion road before. My facts are my facts from my REAL life and from my REAL cars and my REAL wallet.

1. I have not dyno-ed my car so I don't know what HP increase there was (up to 4%) IF ANY. I doubt that there was any. I didn't buy the K&N for that.

2. I have never had to buy a replacement paper filter from any dealer or any autoparts store. Reason #1, small cost savings.

3. I did pick up a slight mpg increase with every car I have used a K&N. Reason #2, This resulted/results in a modest savings at the pump when viewed over years that the K&N was in use in each car.

No fantasy there.

The bottom lines is simple:

-I will use what air filter I want to in my car. Your soapbox preaching won't change that.

-You will use what air filter you want to in your car. My "fantasy thinking" won't change that.

We are both intelligent and knowledgable people that are smart enough to undertake our own research and make our own decisions based on the facts that we have compiled.

steviej

It's interesting that you have to resort to juvenile antics. No one ever said that your filter wasn't real.

Now, let's look at it factually:

1. I already said that not everyone will have a failure, so the fact that YOU haven't had a problem is meaningless.

2. The only claim that anyone has ever made is that there might be a slight mpg increase. However, you've never done any kind of controlled study, so that's pretty meaningless. Not to mention the chance of a placebo effect.

3. Granted, you save the cost of a replacement air filter. If you want to save a few pennies and risk a $30 K car, that's your choice. But I'm recommending that people follow the manufacturer's guidelines. Since the manufacturer spends millions of dollars preparing those guidelines, it's probably a safe bet. No one's telling you that you have to, though.

No one ever said that you shouldn't use whatever filter you want. My posts are directed at people who want to make a decision based on facts. Sorry, but you are NOT in a position to discuss filtration efficiency - you just don't have the experience to do that. That's not to say that you're stupid, but your 'I've had 3 cars with this filter and nothing has blown up yet' position doesn't even begin to qualify you to discuss the technical issues involved here. Nor can you pretend that 'I've had 3 cars and nothing has blown up yet' is anything approaching 'research'. It isn't - no matter how much you pretend it is.

I get a little miffed at that attitude because the world is full of people scamming others and pretending that there's a scientific basis supporting their scam. The auto industry has had its share (I notice you don't even bother to respond to that part of my posts) and K&N's filter is just one more.

If you're happy, feel free to use it. But I'm going to continue to recommend to people that based on my scientific experience, it's not a good automotive filter. That means that it's creating a real risk of expensive failure. That is fact. You've been lucky - that doesn't mean everyone will be.

Lexusfreak · June 30, 2004

Perhaps you should contact K & N directly jragosta, & mention these (your) findings & let's see what K & N has to say about them....then maybe we can put this matter to bed B) :whistles: There are millions (if not 10's of millions) of these filters out there today & are you saying that all these owners are setting themselves up for masive sensor & major engine breakdowns? :blink: As I said before, if that was the case, they would go out of business! I'm very intested to see you give them YOUR findings & give them a chance to respond.

:cheers:

jragosta · June 30, 2004

Perhaps you should contact K & N directly jragosta, & mention these (your) findings & let's see what K & N has to say about them....then maybe we can put this matter to bed B) :whistles: There are millions (if not 10's of millions) of these filters out there today & are you saying that all these owners are setting themselves up for masive sensor & major engine breakdowns? As I said before, if that was the case, they would go out of business! I'm very intested to see you give them YOUR findings & give them a chance to respond.

First, I doubt if K&N has 10s of millions of filters out there. I'm saying that the risk of failure is greater with the K&N filter than with a stock filter. I can't quantify the percentages, but then neither can you show that there's NO impact. From a scientific perspective, I can say with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty (which is the standard of evidence requried of expert witnesses in a court of law) that the risk of engine damage is greater with the K&N filter than with a stock filter.

Second, I'm not interested in dealing with them. I've read their reports, debunked them, and am convinced that there's no scientific validity to their product. I've expressed that scientific certainty here. I don't have any obligation to get into a battle with someone who would probably come after me with lawyers.

If, however, someone were to sue them, I'd be willing to testify as an expert witness that their filters are no good. And I have the credentials to serve in that capacity - which is a difficult thing to show.

monarch · June 30, 2004

Toyota doesn't spend millions advertizing their filters like K&N does, but Toyota does provide a little brochure that explains the features and benefits of genuine Toyota air filters:

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/airfilterd.jpg

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/airfilterc.jpg

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/airfilterb.jpg

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/airfiltera.jpg

Aftermarket air filters can have unexpected problems like this:

http://www.saber.net/~monarch/fram.jpg that allow unfiltered

air into the engine.