Would You Buy Your Es330 Again?

[Seabush]

I'm contemplating purchasing a 2004 ES 330. However, the comments regarding transmission issues leaves questioning my decision. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase your ES 330?

Crystal

[KnipSter]

I'm merely a lurker on this forum. I recently (couple of weeks ago) purchased a 2004 ES 330, and I'm really happy with the car. After choosing the car on the web, I went looking for problems on the web, and saw the same complaints about the transmission.

I was driving a '95 Honda Accord before and everything is much better (comfort, ride, power). I don't know that I can tell. But I guess you have to decide for yourself. Test drive a couple of cars.

Sometimes I think I know, and I play with manually downshifting as if I can avoid the "problems. But all in all, I don't think I detect it.

I really like my new car, maybe the new car smell is overriding my senses.

-Demian

ps. Drive the car, decide for yourself if you like it, and enjoy.

pps. If "they" fix the transmission with software, I'll take the upgrade, but then I always like upgrades! ;)

[monarch]

I believe SW03ES (who owns a '03 ES 5-speed automatic) once said that Lexus's own surveys indicated only 10% of owners notice the momentary lag in response in some driving situations. So it appears the lag is objectionable to young, performance enthusiast type drivers. What I can't figure out is why would aggressive drivers even want to drive a conservative car like the ES to begin with? A GS would be more appropriate.

[amf1932]

So it appears the lag is objectionable to young, performance enthusiast type drivers.

WRONG! You don't have to be young, performance oriented driver to have this transmission or electronic throttle quirk to happen. Sure, you can drive the car to minimize these problems, but this should NOT be necessary in a car of this quality.

I love my car in all other respects, but after driving it through all kinds of conditions, this is the only thing that continuously bugs me. <_<

[jragosta]

I believe SW03ES (who owns a '03 ES 5-speed automatic) once said that Lexus's own surveys indicated only 10% of owners notice the momentary lag in response in some driving situations. So it appears the lag is objectionable to young, performance enthusiast type drivers. What I can't figure out is why would aggressive drivers even want to drive a conservative car like the ES to begin with? A GS would be more appropriate.

Thanks. At 46, it's been a while since anyone called me 'young'.

As for choice of cars, the GS is $6 K more than the ES - which put it outside my budget. Besides, I liked the ES. I shouldn't have to choose a more expensive car to get a transmission that works.

The IS would probably be a better comparison for truly performance oriented drivers since it's in the same price range, but it's not just performance oriented drivers who see the problem. I don't consider myself a particularly aggressive driver and I see the problem.

Any time that 10% of their customers are complaining about a problem, it's real. This crap you get from Lexus corporate ("We don't have any reason to believe that there's a problem with the ES300, although a few customers have expressed 'concerns'" is the quote I got several times) is nonsense. It's a very real problem and needs to be fixed.

[SW03ES]

I'm 23 and I don't notice the lag ;)

I don't think its neccisarily the youth or aggressiveness of the driver, its how they habitually apply power to the throttle. Its simply different ways of driving. I can see what they're saying. Its not really a transmission issue its the electronic throttle. If you drive some other cars with electronic throttles (other Lexuses, BMWs etc) they behave the same way. There may honestly not be anything they can do. My dad's 98 LS was that way, my 03 ES is that way, and his 04 LS is that way. In normal driving I don't notice it anymore. What Lexus is saying is that 10% of owners don't like the way the throttle operates, not that they are experiencing a problem.

I would definately buy my ES again.

[jay swinger]

I'm contemplating purchasing a 2004 ES 330. However, the comments regarding transmission issues leaves questioning my decision. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase your ES 330?

I experienced the hesitation and thud the first day I drove my 2004 ES 330 away from the dealer but it is minor compared to my disappointment with another feature. The transmission acted just like a previously owned 2003 Buick LeSabre. I had gotten into some traffic just dawdling around 35 mph and when I was able to get away from that it acted just like a transmission that constantly hunts for the right gear. Still, I would buy the car because it is very rare that I encounter that.

If I were to buy again, I might omit the Navigation System. I am disappointed with that. It does show where you are and allows you to touch the screen to see streets ahead and return to the present location, but it is limited in how much you can program for a long trip. I would consider getting one of the pedestals to mount a laptop computer instead. These are almost unlimited in the detail you can set before you even go to the car.

The laptop programs are not limited by their database and the programs are MUCH more up-to-date. I estimate the databases for the Lexus are about 18 months old before the first cars are delivered in the U.S. In addition, there is a bias in the Lexus systems toward inputting a street address and city -- which is also very easy to mess up. It is very difficult to set destinations using the maps and you have to be in the car with the ignition turned to ON.

There is something else which I believe could be applied to navigation systems which has yet to happen. There are programs for reading newspapers online which make the detail zoom in and out without features suddenly appearing and disappearing. When and if this is applied to maps, they will spring to life for me.

[SW03ES]

In all fairness though Jay, you want the navigation system to do things that very few other owners are interested in... ;)

[blake918]

My dad's 98 LS was that way

Did the '98 have an electronic throttle? I've never heard of this before on the LS400's. <_<

[jragosta]

I'm 23 and I don't notice the lag ;)

I don't think its neccisarily the youth or aggressiveness of the driver, its how they habitually apply power to the throttle. Its simply different ways of driving. I can see what they're saying. Its not really a transmission issue its the electronic throttle. If you drive some other cars with electronic throttles (other Lexuses, BMWs etc) they behave the same way. There may honestly not be anything they can do. My dad's 98 LS was that way, my 03 ES is that way, and his 04 LS is that way. In normal driving I don't notice it anymore. What Lexus is saying is that 10% of owners don't like the way the throttle operates, not that they are experiencing a problem.

I would definately buy my ES again.

That's the standard story. I'm convinced that it's only partially the drive by wire. That one accounts for the hesitation when you take your foot off the gas and then try to accelerate.

I have that problem and also a different one. If you start from a full stop and accelerate at moderate speed, there's a very hard shift at about 35 mph. Even my wife noticed it - and she doesn't notice much of anything. Well, she'd notice if a wheel fell off. Maybe.

I can't see how drive by wire would explain a very hard shift on steady acceleration.

[steviej]

I have an 02 and I think I am one of the original complainers of the electronic throttle/transmission issue. I have learned how to accelerate the car very rapidly and not achieve the hesitation.

I have to agree with the better part of the posts here.

If I had to replace my 02 today, I would most certainely without a doubt go right to the 04 or 05 ES330.

The LS is way too much money for me right now. The GS is a little too much money for me right now, and the IS is a little too small for me right now.

steviej

[monarch]

[quote

That's the standard story. I'm convinced that it's only partially the drive by wire.

The other side of the story may be related to emission controls. I heard somewhere that Canadian ES's and Camry's with the 5-speed automatic don't have the noticable hesitation, but all USA 5-speed ES's and Camry's have it and Lexus may not be able to fully fix it because any complete fix would increase emissions.

The 2004 ES V6 is Lexus's lowest emission engine - it's emissions are less than half that of the LS 430 V8. However, I do not know why Lexus chose to make the ES engine so clean burning. In any case, it appears the hesitation may be a side effect of the ultra low emission engineering that went into the 5-speed ES and Camry V6 destined for the USA.

[SW03ES]

If it is partially in the transmission then all Lexus transmissions behave that way as do all transmissions on BMWs etc. To me when driving back to back a car with drive by wire and a normal throttle cable, the normal throttle cable is MUCH smoother. The hard shift at 35MPH is odd, I don't have that. That sounds like what the reprogram was supposed to fix, a flutter around 40MPH. Trust me, Lexus will never have any fix for the hesitation when accelerating, its simply the way the throttle by wire systems are. I don't understand why automakers insist on using them.

blake- The 98 had both, it had a electronic throttle (first year) and a backup throttle cable. Modern Lexuses dont have a backup throttle cable.

[steviej]

monarch, you are correct on this.

The US 02-03 ES is ULEV compliant. The US 04 is ULEV-II compliant. The Canadian version ES is not goverened under the US EPA guidelines. In discussions with Lexus (US) during their release of the TSB for the 02/03 customer transmission shift quality compliant, I asked why we couldn't just get the ECU being substituted in Canada? Their responce was that given the ECU in question and the electronic throttle/transmission, the engineers could not get the emissions within the ULEV acceptable limits. Keeping the ULEV compliance was more important than the satisfying the small number of owners that actually registered a complaint. The result was a poor TSB that only changed the shift points to remove the shutter or "gear hunting" at about 40 mph. It did nothing for the hestitation or lag. However, I was told that the Canadian ECU was available by special order at a small fee of $1750 USD, would not be covered under warranty and Lexus could not be held responsible for any failed emissions tests.

The 04 was billed as having an improved 5 speed auto tranny. Supposedly that improvement was the programming from the 02/03 tranny TSB being factory installed. I beleive it is still the same physical tranny, but I am not 100% positive.

steviej.

[jragosta]

If it is partially in the transmission then all Lexus transmissions behave that way as do all transmissions on BMWs etc. To me when driving back to back a car with drive by wire and a normal throttle cable, the normal throttle cable is MUCH smoother. The hard shift at 35MPH is odd, I don't have that. That sounds like what the reprogram was supposed to fix, a flutter around 40MPH. Trust me, Lexus will never have any fix for the hesitation when accelerating, its simply the way the throttle by wire systems are. I don't understand why automakers insist on using them.

blake- The 98 had both, it had a electronic throttle (first year) and a backup throttle cable. Modern Lexuses dont have a backup throttle cable.

You're contradicting yourself:

"all Lexus transmissions behave that way as do all transmissions on BMWs etc"

and

"The hard shift at 35MPH is odd, I don't have that."

Both statements can't be true.

There are two possibilities:

1. The only widespread problem is the hesitation on downshift which is widely reported and which is widely believed to be related to drive by wire. My hard shift is a problem unique (or nearly so) to my car.

or

2. There are two different problems. One related to DBW and the other related to transmission internals (probably programming).

Franky, I don't know which of these is true - I just want my car fixed.

[jragosta]

The 04 was billed as having an improved 5 speed auto tranny. Supposedly that improvement was the programming from the 02/03 tranny TSB being factory installed. I beleive it is still the same physical tranny, but I am not 100% positive.

steviej.

That's another misrepresentation from Lexus, then.

If you're correct and the physical transmission on the 330 is the same as on the 02 and 03, I'm going to be very angry. I specifically asked about it and was told that the 04 had a completely new transmission.

[johngalt1998]

I just bought a 2004 ES330 and i'm very happy so far. I too researched a lot of different models and the ES transmission issue and i felt comfortable enough to spend my money on the Lexus.

I drove an 02 and 03 ES300 and i could get the transmission to be a little "confused" around 40mph, but overall the car(s) were smooth. I drove the 04 and from all my test driving and the miles i've logged on my car so far, it's been nothing but great.

Since i drove a few different cars (Lexus and others) I will say that every car was different as far as the exceleration / tranmissions go. I've had to get used to the new ES and can drive it very smooth. I'm not sure what to make of all the transmission fuss because if you floor it all the time, it does 'hesitate'. But, in my opinion, if you want a smooth car and don't want to race everywhere, the ES330 is perfect.

Like the advice mentioned before, take a drive and buy what you like. Like any other car, it take some getting used to, but i've been really impressed with the car overall.

I based my decision on the quality of car, smooth ride, quite, decent stereo and gas milage, lots of standard features, safety, niiiiice inside, etc, so it's been perfect for me so far.

[Seabush]

Johngalt1998,

What other cars did you research?

Crystal

[SW03ES]

You're contradicting yourself:

"all Lexus transmissions behave that way as do all transmissions on BMWs etc"

and

"The hard shift at 35MPH is odd, I don't have that."

Both statements can't be true.

There are two possibilities:

1. The only widespread problem is the hesitation on downshift which is widely reported and which is widely believed to be related to drive by wire. My hard shift is a problem unique (or nearly so) to my car.

or

2. There are two different problems. One related to DBW and the other related to transmission internals (probably programming).

Franky, I don't know which of these is true - I just want my car fixed.

I'm actually not contradicting myself, there are two issues. One is a shift flutter at 40mph, there is a reprogram to fix that. The other is what everyone is talking about here, hesitation when applying throttle which is a behavior of the DBW system.

[loco1216]

I would not buy the ES330 again as it operates today. When merging into traffic you could get into an accident very easy if you are not carefull enough. My is 2004 with 7k miles :o My adive, stay away from it.

it operates as designed(lexus constant reply to a problem)

[SW03ES]

But that doesn't mean that all or even most owners experience the problem, they don't. Drive the car for an extended period ( a day or two) and put it in all kinds of situations and see how it performs. More likely than not you're going to be happy with it. If it bothers you then you know to stay away from ALL vehicles with electronic throttles, not just the ES.

[johngalt1998]

Johngalt1998,

What other cars did you research?

Crystal

Crystal, i researched the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Infiniti G35, Acura TSX, and Acura TL.

I started off with the Camry and Accords, but i knew that i wanted something a little more lux. Both were fine cars, i just wanted a little more.

The TSX is new and is the Euro Accord, but i found it to be too small and underpowered. Lots of features inside though.

I just did not like the G35. I liked the way the car drove, etc, but i'm not the biggest fan of Nissian and i could not get past the interior.

The Acura TL was the ES main competition in my book. I came from owning an Acura and the new TL's are nice, but the two i looked at the back deck rattled on the test drive (on the test drive, geez), the tires seemed really loud, the ride was a little more 'sport' than i wanted, and i did not like that aluminum (sp?) or wood dash too much.

Hope that helps.

[Ricky]

The 04 was billed as having an improved 5 speed auto tranny.  Supposedly that improvement was the programming from the 02/03 tranny TSB being factory installed.  I beleive it is still the same physical tranny, but I am not 100% positive.

steviej.

That's another misrepresentation from Lexus, then.

If you're correct and the physical transmission on the 330 is the same as on the 02 and 03, I'm going to be very angry. I specifically asked about it and was told that the 04 had a completely new transmission.

I just purchased a ES330. I do notice the "Imfamous" hesitation. I'm not used to a vehicle doing this but it is my first Lexus. I was hoping maybe once the vehicle was broken in and learned my driving style, it would not be as noticable or even go away. Anyone have the condition then eventually it goes away?

[Ricky]

I'm contemplating purchasing a 2004 ES 330. However, the comments regarding transmission issues leaves questioning my decision. If you had it to do over again, would you purchase your ES 330?

Crystal

Crystal....did you wind up buying? I did and I can feel the tranny shift concern...

[tundra-lover]

I wouldn't buy another ES after driving mine for eight months now. I'm ok with it, but not in love with it at all. I've driven cars that were just a blast to drive, but not as reliable in the eyes of some reviews.

My problem isn't with the ES, but with the fact that it's not really fun to drive and I'm not much of a car guy. I've only really liked owning a truck, and my Tundra is just like the ES inside- so, it's kind of fitting for me?

The hardest thing for me to get used to is the poor visibility on the highway, and trying to manoever. It may sound kind of weird, but if you have been in a truck- you know how easy it is to back into a stall with your mirrors, and to see the traffic up ahead of you in bad commutes. Not to mention, I can't throw anything in the back, and I can't take it camping- very frustrating to me! Other than that it's been ok, except for the owner before me didn't keep up on the maintenance! Oh ya, my tranny neede to be replaced also!