Nooooobamacare!

[LEXIRX330]

Actually Jim...if you read my post I said that there are good things in the bill/law. My main things I disagree with I have addressed multiple times. If you care to read it. I am not trying to be a jerk but I sure didn't appreciate you coming on here and telling me that I need to take my discussion off line. SW and I have been the main ones going at it back and forth and we are both MOD's and we haven't banned each other! :)

And Jim...I am glad I live in a country that people are free to disagree with me.

[nc211]

I don't disagree with any of it. I've never said that I did. Only concern I have, which is systematic in general of several components of the current administrations policies and inability to manage its own party - is the cost. My only question I have ever had of this administration is - how do we pay for it? The only answer I can actually see in reality, is more regulation and red tape. I don't think there is a sole with a Finance 101 course under their belt that can argue in any way shape or form that inflation of the worst kind is almost certain to happen now. We're talking 1982 all over again, if not worse. That, is my only beef with Obama and this group of democrat leadership. I love the democratic party, I think they're the more compassionate party to the public. But, and especially given the recent economic climate, they just don't seem to have a grasp on the budget and where the danger zone of leverage is. Spend spend spend, when the country is broke broke broke, leaves little to tax tax tax. That's my issue.

Universal health care shouldn't be a democrat or republican thing. Or a rich vs poor thing. It should be a humanitarian thing. I might be a lot of bad things, and to some I might represent the evil of the system, which is fine with me (I do what I want in general). But, I'm not an a-hole to someone who is in dire straights of need. Few things make me more angry than seeing a true victim left to be victimized by greed and narrow mindedness.

That being said, Jim, you're the one who came in here with this tone of being the only one who understands the bill, because you've read it. Yet, you won't support your position. I say you either engage the conversation with facts that you have gleamed from reading the legal opinion of Roberts, or apologize to those you insulted and and remain quiet.

[LEXIRX330]

I don't disagree with any of it. I've never said that I did. Only concern I have, which is systematic in general of several components of the current administrations policies and inability to manage its own party - is the cost. My only question I have ever had of this administration is - how do we pay for it? The only answer I can actually see in reality, is more regulation and red tape. I don't think there is a sole with a Finance 101 course under their belt that can argue in any way shape or form that inflation of the worst kind is almost certain to happen now. We're talking 1982 all over again, if not worse. That, is my only beef with Obama and this group of democrat leadership. I love the democratic party, I think they're the more compassionate party to the public. But, and especially given the recent economic climate, they just don't seem to have a grasp on the budget and where the danger zone of leverage is. Spend spend spend, when the country is broke broke broke, leaves little to tax tax tax. That's my issue.

And that is my whole issue the cost of it! Where is the money coming from...the government has been regulating the insurance companies all along. So if they want to change the rules or force the companies to cover things they can do it already. The problem is in a free market the insurance companies decide to pull out when they can't make a profit in the markets like Maryland for example. That is why you have only a few carriers that have all of the market share. No one else can come in and compete. The medical loss ratio has been set and the insurance companies have to spend the bulk of all premiums on claims. Now if someone wants to tell me the government will do better when managing a health insurance company than only using 20 - 15 % of the money they collect to run and administer the plan I think I will die from laughter.

Anyway I kind of thought this was interesting:

The Doctor Patient Medical Association has released a new survey of about 700 doctors, and the results are bleak. Scary bleak. Among other dismal figures, Doctors' Attitudes on the Future of Medicine: What’s Wrong, Who’s to Blame, and What Will Fix It found that 83% of respondents are contemplating leaving the industry if Obamacare is fully implemented, owing to its disastrous projected consequences. Indeed, they openly blame the healthcare law for their industry's woes:

 

KEY FINDINGS

 

90% say the medical system is on the WRONG TRACK

83% say they are thinking about QUITTING

61% say the system challenges their ETHICS

85% say the patient-physician relationship is in a TAILSPIN

65% say GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT is most to blame for current problems

72% say individual insurance mandate will NOT result in improved access care

49% say they will STOP accepting Medicaid patients

74% say they will STOP ACCEPTING Medicare patients, or leave Medicare completely

52% say they would rather treat some Medicaid/Medicare patient for FREE

57% give the AMA a FAILING GRADE representing them

1 out of 3 doctors is HESITANT to voice their opinion

2 out of 3 say they are JUST SQUEAKING BY OR IN THE RED financially

95% say private practice is losing out to CORPORATE MEDICINE

80% say DOCTORS/MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS are most likely to help solve things

70% say REDUCING GOVERNMENT would be single best fix.

 

Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/obamacare/2012/06/15/survey-says-doctors-don-t-obamacare#ixzz20GlqAPLg

[lenore]

Good post, shows the real problem. People dont hate change, they just want change that solves problems without government bureacracy. Name one thing the government does well.

[mrmark]

....wow....just saw this post.

I thought the healthcare bill was supposed to provide insurance for all......30 mill more people in the system.....no one denied....premiums will go down.....care will get better....will bring down the deficit.......will cure ED....unicorns for all !!!

Seriously, all the propaganda can make your head spin. But no spin question.......how will all the additional people in the system be serviced by the existing number of practitioners at the current fee schedule rates offered by managed care ????? Small problem.....don't you think ????

[nc211]

Read a report today, that pretty much sealed the deal for me. Drudge picked up on it too today.

Starting on October 1st of this year - nearly all credit rating agencies will have to start reporting directly to a US government oversight committee. Doesn't sound too bad on the surface. But, when one thinks about it - your personal financial files

for your entire life will now be accessible by politicians. Now, when you think about how influential your credit score/report is to your quality of life, kind've opens the door to really bad ideas, doesn't it! So, our government has now taken control of the health services industry, the banking regulatory industry, the entertainment decency industry (more bad words heading to your TV soon), and now our credit scores. Don't know about you, but I've had enough. I've looked at countless credit reports in my career, without a single problem.

[TampaLex]

What blows my mind is the CBO's constant revisions of increasing costs. We still have yet to roll this thing out in entirety. $870B became $1.46T quickly out of the box.

The CBO made an assumption of 100% compliance in Obamacare based on Americans propensity to fall in line with legal mandates whether they agree or not. With the generation of 'what's in it for me' kids I envision of pile of people who won't buy a dime of coverage until they need it. Once the true costs of this boondoggle matriculate into all areas of our lives it will be too late.

[TampaLex]

....wow....just saw this post.

I thought the healthcare bill was supposed to provide insurance for all......30 mill more people in the system.....no one denied....premiums will go down.....care will get better....will bring down the deficit.......will cure ED....unicorns for all !!!

Seriously, all the propaganda can make your head spin. But no spin question.......how will all the additional people in the system be serviced by the existing number of practitioners at the current fee schedule rates offered by managed care ????? Small problem.....don't you think ????

This is such a simple thing that so few understand, glad you see it!

The primary care physician pool has been in steady decline since the late 80's. We just added an enormous amount of subscribers. Massive increase in demand.....decrease in supply. So, cost goes up and quality of care goes down exponentially.

If you want to see how a state sponsored health care program works head down to your local VA. It's sad. The man and women who deserve the greatest care we can provide get the worst. Sure Walter Reed is a shining star, but by and large the VA system is a tragedy of quality. I spent almost 14 years working in the health care industry and saw it up close every day.

[nc211]

The healthcare debate is pretty much in the hands of the voters in November. We can all hark and bark about it until we're blue in face (don't pass out though, unless you're insured ;-).

This is what bothers me, and you better listen to him, as he is one smart amigo! I'm bias though because I've met him. His company is a spinoff of my former employer, and I can tell you, he is rarely, if ever, wrong.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-17/gross-says-u-s-nearing-recession-as-goldman-sachs-cuts-forecast.html

What bothers me, is that after 4 years of hearing about how bad Bush left us (a president who believed in the private sector, maybe a little too much) - how are we any better with all of this government oversight now? How can we possibly be looking at a sunrise after years of cheap money flooding our leverage markets? How, can anyone really have any "hope" for a positive "change" when the realities of the past two years are clearly going to whack the unholy *BLEEP* out of the next four? Especially if the private sector can't get it's confidence back and get its revenues up, which given the pending fee structures coming from all of this expanding government injected influence, I honestly don't see it ever happening. What we make today, is on deck for taxation increases tomorrow. Add in fees and lost opportunities for revenue generation due to regulation constraints, and today looks better than tomorrow. This doesn't even take into consideration the NEED for hyper-inflation to get currency earnings out of the gutter. Seriously, 30 year fixed rate mortgages for 3.75%, and they're friggin' transferable (FHA program).

I'm sorry folks, even if I wanted to vote for Obama in November, (and I don't hate the guy, or what he wants to do), I don't think I can afford him anymore.

And what's wrong with being rich anyway? Branding the wealthy as the root of all that is wrong with America today, doesn't hurt the wealthy, it hurts the country's historical drive for prosperity! Why work your butt off in your 20's and 30's, make tough sacrifices for student debt and move to places you hate to pursue long term opportunities for a better future.....if your leader is going to brand you as a greedy scapegoat to those who didn't make those tough choices and decisions and financial gambles and commitments to their own future potential, and are mad because they don't get to live in a bigger house now? I just don't get it.

I will say this too (even though I should probably delete that post about hitting the road ;/)) - before Mr. Obama starts trashing Bain Capital as the prime example of the deportation of jobs...he might want to hope nobody asks him about his chief financier in 2008 that is credited with raising all that money that swept him into office. Might find it interesting how the Pritzker family made

much of their wealth and influence in this country, with their international cargo container business that helped American manufacturers shift jobs overseas, and ship back the products for us to buy..... There isn't one snake in that grass, Mr. hope and change....there's two, and you better tread lightly before someone calls YOU out for this too!

[lenore]

Sadly the media is not calling him to the carpet....It is a giant media blizz for the Obama campaign. The only folks trying are the packs. Being an upstanding man the Republicans are not fighting back. Bain capital created a lot of jobs also ie Staples stores etc. Chicago style politics has taken over the nation.

[SW03ES]

The scarey part are all of the TAXES (oh excuse me FEES) that Obama care is going to start charging when IT goes into effect. 3.8% realestate tax on sale of home for starters in 2013 (of course right after the election) How wonderful for the retires moving to downsize in the future.

THIS is not true, I hear it all the time

Its a 3.8% tax on INVESTMENT INCOME for HIGH EARNERS. $200k indiv. $250k joint. Theres also the same exemption for a primary residence for $250k of gain individually or $500k jointly they have for capital gains taxes. So if your married, downsizing couple has made half a million dollars on their home...they may pay 3.8% in additional tax only on the amount OVER $500k IN GAIN. I'm okay with that.

If you want to see how a state sponsored health care program works head down to your local VA. It's sad. The man and women who deserve the greatest care we can provide get the worst. Sure Walter Reed is a shining star, but by and large the VA system is a tragedy of quality. I spent almost 14 years working in the health care industry and saw it up close every day.

I have several family members that are nurses in the VA system, and we just had a lot of experience with the VA system because of my uncle who passed away in December. It really depends on the VA. Some are better than others, but I do agree on the whole they are pretty depressing. A lot of that is funding problems though, as well as a general apathy for specifically veterans in this country. I don't think you can make the assertion that the VA is the best example of what hospitals in the US would look like with a single payer healthcare system. Look at hospitals in other countries with state run healthcare, they aren't that way.

Seriously, 30 year fixed rate mortgages for 3.75%, and they're friggin' transferable (FHA program).

Try 3.4%!

[lenore]

Great so the tax is for the 250k plus, well that is what we want to do is tax the folks that creat small business? That is a real job maker. Even CNN said that the majority of small business falls within that income range. Why dont we just give all of our money to the feds and let them give it out like the welfare state. Than we will truely be a third world class country.

[SW03ES]

This is what you fail to understand or refuse to understand. When they say "$250,000" they're talking about your AGI. A small business has significant tax writeoffs for their operating costs and expenses. Even for a sole proprietorship you've got vehicle, portion of home for home office, etc. In order for you to have to pay this tax you are talking about you must, as a married person:

1. Have an AGI of OVER $250,000.

2. Have a capital gain on the sale of your house of OVER $500,000.

I can tell you as a real estate broker, it is VERY rare to find a home seller that has a gain over $500,000, even in Washington where we have high home values and had high appreciation. Even then we're talking about 3.8% if the amount OVER the $500k gain exemption. So if its another $100k, its $3,800. They would have to pay capital gains taxes of 15%, plus this 3.8%. So thats $18,500 in taxes on $600,000 of investment income. Thats a 3% tax rate. Bear in mind that until not that long ago, capital gains were taxed at your tax bracket. So people are still paying FAR less taxes than they used to.

The owner of a small business having to maybe pay $3,800 in additional tax on a $600,000 gain on the sale of his primary residence isn't going to keep him from hiring people.

So...STOP spreading misinformation, you don't know what you are talking about.

No other country that I am aware of provides tax exemptions like that for the sale of a primary residence.

As for taxes, I am all for people with high incomes paying the same percentages as middle class people. They don't.

People who have high incomes need to pay the same percentage in taxes as everybody else. There needs to be some separation between how a small business is taxed and how an individual is taxed. Too many loopholes, too many ways for people with means to be able to get out of paying taxes in this country. Its not about "socialism" or "spreading the wealth" its about everybody paying their fair share. Just look at Mitt Romney. All that income and his effective tax rate is 15%. Thats the same tax bracket as someone with an AGI of $9,000. Do you think thats fair?

[TampaLex]

I have several family members that are nurses in the VA system, and we just had a lot of experience with the VA system because of my uncle who passed away in December. It really depends on the VA. Some are better than others, but I do agree on the whole they are pretty depressing. A lot of that is funding problems though, as well as a general apathy for specifically veterans in this country. I don't think you can make the assertion that the VA is the best example of what hospitals in the US would look like with a single payer healthcare system. Look at hospitals in other countries with state run healthcare, they aren't that way.

>>>>sorry messed up the quote thingy

Well, we can just agree to disagree. I worked hand in hand with administrators, department heads and all the way up to the C-Suite to help hospitals curtail waste from intake to discharge. Sadly the VA's are no different than anything else the government touches. The bureaucratic waste of $ from front door to back would make your eye lids flip. The only hospitals that were interested in running a tight ship were for profit centers. Sadly, 2 of the best cost containment practices I learned were by looking at what the VA did and going the other direction. GREAT people in the VA's who work very hard, but they are too often hamstrung by bureaucratic nonsense.

THIS is my biggest issue with the Affordable Care Act. I'm still looking for what they included in the bill to reduce the cost of care. All I see is they found a way to give health care to 35-40 million people, not reduce the cost.

I will give you an n=1 experience on your 'other countries'. I have a Canadian friend who went to Salt Lake City 2 years ago to pay cash to have his ACL reconstructed. Why? He waited 18 months for his referral visit to the ortho and still no visit. 18 months! He and his wife flew to SLC, had it fixed and were home in 72 hours. His assessment of the Canadian system is more or less if you have a cold or splinter it's great, but when you need care 'now' it's a joke.

[SW03ES]

THIS is why the Affordable Care Act will not work. I'm still looking for what they included in the bill to reduce the cost of care. All I see is they found a way to give health care to 35-40 million people, not reduce the cost.

The VA is not something you can use as proof that the Affordable Care Act won't work. The two have zero similarities. Nobody is talking about the Government taking over control or administration of hospitals or doctors. Completely different things.

I will give you an n=1 experience on your 'other countries'. I have a Canadian friend who drove to Salt Lake City 2 years ago to pay cash to have his ACL reconstructed. Why? He waited 18 months for his referral visit to the ortho and still no visit. 18 months! He and his wife flew to SLC, had it fixed and were home in 72 hours. His assessment of the Canadian system is more or less if you have a cold or splinter it's great, but when you need care 'now' it's a joke.

Thats his assessment as someone who has the means to pay out of pocket for an expensive medical procedure. I doubt if you asked someone Canadian who did not what they would prefer to do you'd get a different answer. I think you'd likely get a different answer from an American with no healthcare who drags his leg with a torn ACL around day to day with no hope of ever getting it repaired too.

I have a coworker, self employed, no healthcare. He was really sick, throwing up, not eating, didn't go to the doctor because he was afraid of the cost. Waited past when he started vomiting blood...passing out. He finally went when it came to the point where he couldn't stand up, his wife and son carried him and put him into the car, he didn't have much say at that point. I went to his funeral was 4 days later. He was 51. Had he been in Canada...he'd be alive.

He couldn't afford health insurance. Couldn't afford it. This is a middle class guy.

So, nothings perfect. There are plusses and minuses to everything. Waiting 18 months for a non life-saving surgery sucks. Dying because you have the flu when you're a middle class American and can't afford to go to the Doctor sucks worse IMHO.

[pj8708]

Good post, shows the real problem. People dont hate change, they just want change that solves problems without government bureacracy. Name one thing the government does well.

Corecction: "People don't hate change, as long as it dosen't effect them".

[LEXIRX330]

THIS is why the Affordable Care Act will not work. I'm still looking for what they included in the bill to reduce the cost of care. All I see is they found a way to give health care to 35-40 million people, not reduce the cost.

The VA is not something you can use as proof that the Affordable Care Act won't work. The two have zero similarities. Nobody is talking about the Government taking over control or administration of hospitals or doctors. Completely different things.

I will give you an n=1 experience on your 'other countries'. I have a Canadian friend who drove to Salt Lake City 2 years ago to pay cash to have his ACL reconstructed. Why? He waited 18 months for his referral visit to the ortho and still no visit. 18 months! He and his wife flew to SLC, had it fixed and were home in 72 hours. His assessment of the Canadian system is more or less if you have a cold or splinter it's great, but when you need care 'now' it's a joke.

Thats his assessment as someone who has the means to pay out of pocket for an expensive medical procedure. I doubt if you asked someone Canadian who did not what they would prefer to do you'd get a different answer. I think you'd likely get a different answer from an American with no healthcare who drags his leg with a torn ACL around day to day with no hope of ever getting it repaired too.

I have a coworker, self employed, no healthcare. He was really sick, throwing up, not eating, didn't go to the doctor because he was afraid of the cost. Waited past when he started vomiting blood...passing out. He finally went when it came to the point where he couldn't stand up, his wife and son carried him and put him into the car, he didn't have much say at that point. I went to his funeral was 4 days later. He was 51. Had he been in Canada...he'd be alive.

He couldn't afford health insurance. Couldn't afford it. This is a middle class guy.

So, nothings perfect. There are plusses and minuses to everything. Waiting 18 months for a non life-saving surgery sucks. Dying because you have the flu when you're a middle class American and can't afford to go to the Doctor sucks worse IMHO.

Sorry SW most people that say that they can't afford health insurance still some how have iPhones, more than one car, every channel on cable, 10 pairs of shoes... They just don't prioritize. My parents told me as soon as I was off of their plan to get health insurance. I have always had a policy. Never used it when I was younger. Had a high deductible but had something. I am sorry the guy is dead...I am sorry for his family...I hope he did manage to afford life insurance.

And he absolutely could have went to the doctor...he chose not to because he didn't buy insurance...come on. People go to the doctor all of the time without insurance. And yes there are some terrible stories about people who loose everything they have because of not having insurance. Why...why didn't they have it? Why didn't they get it when they could....THE COST.

[lenore]

Change is what we are all about, but it has to be accepted as good or bad. The bad needs to be recycled and altered until it meets the majorities satisfaction.

[nc211]

SW - we lost a deal on pricing at LIBOR plus 90, or in absolute terms... 1.15% for a 7 year term. 85% leverage too! This is just unreal. The economic payback for this type of stuff is going to be painful! I believe the next scapegoat for an economic recession will indeed be commercial real estate.

[SW03ES]

Sorry SW most people that say that they can't afford health insurance still some how have iPhones, more than one car, every channel on cable, 10 pairs of shoes... They just don't prioritize. My parents told me as soon as I was off of their plan to get health insurance. I have always had a policy. Never used it when I was younger. Had a high deductible but had something. I am sorry the guy is dead...I am sorry for his family...I hope he did manage to afford life insurance.

And he absolutely could have went to the doctor...he chose not to because he didn't buy insurance...come on. People go to the doctor all of the time without insurance. And yes there are some terrible stories about people who loose everything they have because of not having insurance. Why...why didn't they have it? Why didn't they get it when they could....THE COST.

This was not someone who drove around in flashy cars with iPhones, etc. He was a 50+ year old man, you know how expensive it is for someone who is that age to get decent health insurance on his own with no group. We're talking $700 a month. He was a struggling real estate agent...he couldn't afford that.

The goal of that story was not to say he shouldn't have had health insurance, or even to say that the Affordable Care Act would help people like him at all, its to highlight the problem, and why having to wait 18 months for a non life saving surgery might be worth it if we could have covered people like this guy. Of course he chose not to go to the doctor, he chose not to because he couldn't afford to. This is the only industrialized nation on earth where someone even has to think about the cost of healthcare when they get sick.

Here's another problem. In my industry everybody is an independent contractor. Well, I work for a big firm, we have like 14,000 agents. Hey...would be an okay group huh? Well...our company is PROHIBITED from providing access to a group healthcare policy. Its ILLEGAL! Its expressly prohibited by the IRS' rules on independent contractors. Talk about a common sense reform opportunity.

SW - we lost a deal on pricing at LIBOR plus 90' date=' or in absolute terms... 1.15% for a 7 year term. 85% leverage too! This is just unreal. The economic payback for this type of stuff is going to be painful! I believe the next scapegoat for an economic recession will indeed be commercial real estate[/quote']

Scary...

[lenore]

Precisely, The IRS interfered with competition. Healthcare is not a right, its a privilage for those that work. Otherwise they have to take what is available ie the ER. Real reform would go a long way toward solving the cost issue.

[SW03ES]

Healthcare is not a right, its a privilage for those that work... Otherwise they have to take what is available ie the ER.

See, this is the problem. Those that don't work HAVE healthcare! Medicaid, or they just show up at the ER and get helped for free, and the rest of us shoulder the cost for that. Plenty of people like my friend out there, they work, but they have no healthcare through their employers, they can't afford decent healthcare on their own because of the cost, and it wouldn't cover any of their pre-existing conditions anyways.

If we had some way of MANDATING younger, healthier people to buy insurance when they don't get sick, it would spread out the risk and reduce costs. If you open up competition between insurance providers an an EXCHANGE where consumers can cross shop for policies, it provides competition and reduces cost. Thats the whole crux of how it works.

Anyways, I think access to quality healthcare should be a right in 21st century America, as it is in every other industrialized nation. Start a few less wars, there's the cost. Poor people get healthcare, its the middle class that doesn't.

Real reform would go a long way toward solving the cost issue.

Okay, so what would be real reform?

Precisely, The IRS interfered with competition.

Huh?

[pj8708]

Precisely, The IRS interfered with competition. Healthcare is not a right, its a privilage for those that work. Otherwise they have to take what is available ie the ER. Real reform would go a long way toward solving the cost issue.

Lenore, regarding your statemennt that healthcare is a privalage not a right, I'm going to assume you merely got your keyboard mixed-up, and the out-come statement should have been reversed.

GOOD HEALTHCARE is a RIGHT, not a privalage. If you actually believe that it is a privalage, then we rightfully can establish rules and guidlines for what type and level of care you should get, and if your condition becomes critical, they will look at the guidlines to dtermine if you should recieve additioal life saving measures's or not....

It is not a privalage to be able to take in a breath and exhale, It is not a privalage to have something or someone to provide essential medical care. This is one of the core attempts of the Affordable Healthcare Act. To try and turn the Titanic a few degree's farther sout, into a different course helping employers, insuers, and Americans move into a plan that makes sense for all.

When we start puttung prices's on your family's and co-workers lives, when we judge who is fitting or who not to be given the aid of a clinic, Nurse, Doctor and other necessary services. This will give all of us then the RIGHT to object regarding neccety, exspense, or any other b.s. they want to come up with.

Healthcare is a RIGHT. Driving is a privalage.

The Republican method is to take care of those who only can take care of you.

The new Air Force fighter is $30 Billion a copy and they can't fly it for more than 30 minutes because of hypoxia problems. This has been going on for years, trying to get it air worthy. $30 Billion........per plane that is too dangerous to fly. But Congress won't pull the plug, Just keep printing more money.

When your making your snap judgments about who will be allowed to live and who will not be cause you don't like the way they look or because they haven't had a job for two years, Choose carefully. Things are learned in the home

[SW03ES]

And in any event...healthcare IS ALREADY a right in this country. Show up at a hospital...you get treated...for free if you can't pay. Bills to high? File for medical bankruptcy and the cost gets absorbed by the system and charged off. The issue is that having people stay away until they are on death's door and THEN show up at the hospital when their situation is dire and they need even MORE expensive medical care that they will never get paid for...then the patient dies...is not the way it should happen. If everybody had access to basic healthcare, less people would get to that point and then require doctors and hospitals to absorb the cost of their care. If young, healthy people would buy into an overall healthcare system it would bring cost down. How do we make them do it? We have to provide incentives for them to do so...and penalties for them not to.

GOOD HEALTHCARE is a RIGHT, not a privalage. If you actually believe that it is a privalage, then we rightfully can establish rules and guidlines for what type and level of care you should get, and if your condition becomes critical, they will look at the guidlines to dtermine if you should recieve additioal life saving measures's or not....

This is the problem. Lenore thinks healthcare should be a right for him and people like him...but not for everybody. Just like the right to have guns, or the right to move about the country free from illegal search and seizure. You're so right, if its a privilege then its a privilege for all. Privileges can be revoked at any time. Bring on the death panels if thats the case, if all that matters is "cost".

I think conservatives vastly over-emphasize the cost of actually providing coverage for everybody...because they can't stomach the thought of their money going to the benefit of someone else who they deem as "less worthy". Well, thats how a society works. The government provides services, and those services are paid for by everyone who pays taxes. If you don't have kids you still pay for schools. If you don't read...you still pay for libraries. If you aren't in need, you still pay for welfare and medicaid. If you don't drive, you still pay for roads. I didn't want to kill Saddam Hussein but I still paid an !Removed! load of money to kill him. I'd have rather my friend remained alive and Saddam remained alive quite frankly, and that could have been accomplished and STILL saved the taxpayers money over what has been spent in Iraq!

We are ALREADY paying for healthcare for everybody, the way we're doing it is just the least efficient way possible.

[pj8708]

This is an article with short, precise corrections to the major "MYTH's" regarding the healthcare act. I believe them to be factual and will stand up to fact checking. I bet you won't read it.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/photos/obamacare-myths/#photo-1

As a side note, A hospital in the metro area has lost millions of millions of dollars this year from their general budget, almost all atributabe to unpaid patient care and charity care through places like the ER. No hospital can go on like this, but the healthcare law helps to fix the problem by having all those who can afford it have insurance.