Crazy Sob!

[FLF]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

[pj8708]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

So what's your point? Take your conspiracy theory and your Lexus and buy the Ranger.

Paul

[smooth1]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Yeah cause GM didn't try to hide it's defective ABS systems for years, and years, and years...and I think they are still battling out. And that issue may or may not over shadow the spark plug ejecting cover up, and Ford has known about it's cruise control issues for way longer than it was covered in the news. Heck, Lincoln/Mercury paid millions in advertising hush money to keep their "unintended stuck accelerator trajedy out of the news when their car killed it's driver and passenger 7 years earlier. You do remember the media flogging they got right? Just like the one Toyota just got? Oh, that's right, it never happened. Toyota pulled their advertising dollars instead. That was Toyota's huge mistake here!

And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Well, it's good to see all those billions of dollars GM took from us to pay the magazines to recreate a new image for themselves is getting through. The only problem here is it's complete BS. If you take away just fleet sales, I'm talking car sales to Enterprise car rentals and Budget and those that purchase on short term price and by contracts alone, GM, Ford and Chrysler can not compete in sales, even in just the US market, or especially in the US market. It's the crippling labor unions that have locked up the car companies and hence they will never be able to truly level the playing field. When was the last time american car company innovated something? or lead the technology advancements in true automotive design? Not since the 60's.Unless, you count Lee Iococa's K car concept that did help bring the unibody construction to the forefront, but then again it made car building cheaper, so of course the american car companies jumped on that one! LOL!! take a real look around, for example, the 4 door mid size sedan market.

Lexus GS / ES

Mercedes Benz E Class

BMW 5 series

Acura TL

Audi A6

Volvo S60

Hyundai Genesis

Mazda 6

Toyota Camery

Volkswagen Passat

Honda Accord

Nissan Maxima

Then we look at us,

Ford Taurus, really, this car just came back last year. It was discontinued for almost 10 years! Where's Ford loyalty?

Ford Thunderbird, (gone, discontinued.) after being turned into the retro POS!! and completely ruined the legacy.

Chevy Malibu ( You've got to be kidding me right? Until 2 or 3 years ago this wasn't even considered a real car any more. And even now, while yes, it does look alot better, it's still the same POS underneath!)

Buick Regal ( this just looks like a bad imitation of a real luxury car and what is up with the "retro" modern grill contraption thing?

Cadillac STS/ CTS This is the best I think we are doing right now, but it's still no where near to their Asian and European counterparts.

Dodge Charger I'm sorry, but these cars are just designed for kids. There is just no sophistication in anything here.

Chrysler 300- Look, it has 22's!!!

Frod Crown Vic- Discontinued. The real american car of all time, ended. with No evolution.

Pontiac Closed, out of business

Plymouth Closed, out of business

Saturn Closed out of business

Why do all the american cars have to be a "gimmick." Look at the Camaro. Why does the interior of that car have to look like a matchbox car interior? Slide into a Nissan GTR and look at that interior! NOW YOUR TALKING! Even the Ford Mustang was all hokey until this last year it finally is starting to look like a real car inside!

[FLF]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

What "conspiracy theory"? Cold hard facts, just as cold as those 4 people who died during their 911 call for help. Are you forgetting them? 100mph, and the driver was with CHP. Dead. It's been reported Toyota paid $10 million for that deadly accident. And the Toyota/Lexus lawyers? Gave each other high 5s for saving the company money by using their contacts with the NHTSA. Then it hit the fan when all the Toyota defects came to light.......driveshafts falling out of trucks, frames rusting in half, stalling Corollas (Toyota called this accident in the making an "inconvenience". Really, Mr. Toyoda? Take your Lexus out and shut it off in traffic, see how much of an "inconvenience" it truly is). Spares falling off Siennas and Tacomas, recalls for brakes, steering, a CU announcenment to avoid one of the Lexus vehicles over safety concerns. And those are just a FEW deadly issues. Conspiracy? YES, by Toyota/Lexus. Hell, their own exec said it best, "we need to come clean". Sad, putting dollars before lives. 27 recalls in 2 years? 14 million vehicles? Was the entire world in on this "conspiracy" because Toyota/Lexus was forced to recall not just in the US but worldwide. Face it, they don't care about you OR your family. And I didn't even go into the gas pedal debacle.

So what's your point? Take your conspiracy theory and your Lexus and buy the Ranger.

Paul

[FLF]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Yeah cause GM didn't try to hide it's defective ABS systems for years, and years, and years...and I think they are still battling out. And that issue may or may not over shadow the spark plug ejecting cover up, and Ford has known about it's cruise control issues for way longer than it was covered in the news. Heck, Lincoln/Mercury paid millions in advertising hush money to keep their "unintended stuck accelerator trajedy out of the news when their car killed it's driver and passenger 7 years earlier. You do remember the media flogging they got right? Just like the one Toyota just got? Oh, that's right, it never happened. Toyota pulled their advertising dollars instead. That was Toyota's huge mistake here!

And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Well, it's good to see all those billions of dollars GM took from us to pay the magazines to recreate a new image for themselves is getting through. The only problem here is it's complete BS. If you take away just fleet sales, I'm talking car sales to Enterprise car rentals and Budget and those that purchase on short term price and by contracts alone, GM, Ford and Chrysler can not compete in sales, even in just the US market, or especially in the US market. It's the crippling labor unions that have locked up the car companies and hence they will never be able to truly level the playing field. When was the last time american car company innovated something? or lead the technology advancements in true automotive design? Not since the 60's.Unless, you count Lee Iococa's K car concept that did help bring the unibody construction to the forefront, but then again it made car building cheaper, so of course the american car companies jumped on that one! LOL!! take a real look around, for example, the 4 door mid size sedan market.

Lexus GS

Mercedes Benz E 350

BMW 5 series

Acura TL

Audi A6

Hyundai Genesis

Mazda 6

Toyota Camery

Volkswagen Passat

Honda Accord

Then we look at us,

Ford Taurus, really, this car just came back last year. It was discontinued for almost 10 years! Where's Ford loyalty?

Ford Thunderbird, (gone, discontinued.) after being turned into the retro POS!! and completely ruined the legacy.

Chevy Malibu ( You've got to be kidding me right? Until 2 or 3 years ago this wasn't even considered a real car any more. And even now, while yes, it does look alot better, it's still the same POS underneath!)

Buick Regal ( this just looks like a bad imitation of a real luxury car and what is up with the "retro" modern grill contraption thing?

Cadillac STS/ CTS This is the best I think we are doing right now, but it's still no where near to their Asian and European counterparts.

Dodge Charger I'm sorry, but these cars are just designed for kids. There is just no sophistication in anything here.

Chrysler 300- Look, it has 22's!!!

Frod Crown Vic- Discontinued. The real american car of all time, ended. with No evolution.

Why do all the american cars have to be a "gimmick." Look at the Camaro. Why does the interior of that car have to look like a matchbox car interior? Slide into a Nissan GTR and look at that interior! NOW YOUR TALKING! Even the Ford Mustang was all hokey until this last year it finally is starting to look like a real car inside!

Geeze, where to start with this one.........first mistake, Taurus was replaced by the Five Hundred for ONE year, not 10. Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality. Lexus? Innovative? The first Lexus looked EXACTLY like a Mercedes. You know it, we all know it. And the first ES? A tarted up Camry. Sophistication? No. The Lexus can't self-park on declines.......hell, even a Focus can do that. Cadillac is now considered by the press as being equal to Lexus. Charger? It fits its market. Crown Vic, being replaced by the Taurus. Lincoln? A 3 year-old Lincoln is more dependable than a 3 year-old Lexus. Lincoln was #1 in reliabilty. Read the study. The government will probably MAKE money from its loans to GM. Lexus is made in the US. Toyota/Lexus engineering is not what it's been hyped up to be. Too many recalls, too many deaths. I'll buy American from now on. Keep the money, jobs here. Please get your facts right before you make such untrue comments on this site. I for one am not drinking anymore Toyota/Lexus Kool-Aid. Too many have died.

[LEXIRX330]

Are you kidding. Do you know anyone with a GM? Ask them about their recalls...lady that works for me has a CTS she has gotten recall after recall. My mother in law's brand new CTS would not shut off they have had it back to the dealer a few times.

Keep the money and jobs here...sure! Man you might not be drinking the Lexus Kool-aid but you are sure drinking some Kool-aid and it may have something in it.

Buy a ford or a GM and join one of their forums. They may be interested in hearing your opinions.

[pj8708]

FLF,

Where is all this deep seated anger/hate coming from? Your appearance on this forum, just for the sake of venting your frustration at people you don't know and a piece of sheet metal and rubber, is irrational. Were you turned down for financing or something for a new Lexus? Did you personally have a floor mat rub against your gas pedal? All of your anger and grievances seem to be second person or from press re lease's. Your continued attacks on members of this forum speaks volumes about your stability and your inability to separate fact from what is manufactured by publicity. IMO join a "I hate Lexus Forum" or get some therapy.

Paul

[smooth1]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Yeah cause GM didn't try to hide it's defective ABS systems for years, and years, and years...and I think they are still battling out. And that issue may or may not over shadow the spark plug ejecting cover up, and Ford has known about it's cruise control issues for way longer than it was covered in the news. Heck, Lincoln/Mercury paid millions in advertising hush money to keep their "unintended stuck accelerator trajedy out of the news when their car killed it's driver and passenger 7 years earlier. You do remember the media flogging they got right? Just like the one Toyota just got? Oh, that's right, it never happened. Toyota pulled their advertising dollars instead. That was Toyota's huge mistake here!

And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Well, it's good to see all those billions of dollars GM took from us to pay the magazines to recreate a new image for themselves is getting through. The only problem here is it's complete BS. If you take away just fleet sales, I'm talking car sales to Enterprise car rentals and Budget and those that purchase on short term price and by contracts alone, GM, Ford and Chrysler can not compete in sales, even in just the US market, or especially in the US market. It's the crippling labor unions that have locked up the car companies and hence they will never be able to truly level the playing field. When was the last time american car company innovated something? or lead the technology advancements in true automotive design? Not since the 60's.Unless, you count Lee Iococa's K car concept that did help bring the unibody construction to the forefront, but then again it made car building cheaper, so of course the american car companies jumped on that one! LOL!! take a real look around, for example, the 4 door mid size sedan market.

Lexus GS

Mercedes Benz E 350

BMW 5 series

Acura TL

Audi A6

Hyundai Genesis

Mazda 6

Toyota Camery

Volkswagen Passat

Honda Accord

Then we look at us,

Ford Taurus, really, this car just came back last year. It was discontinued for almost 10 years! Where's Ford loyalty?

Ford Thunderbird, (gone, discontinued.) after being turned into the retro POS!! and completely ruined the legacy.

Chevy Malibu ( You've got to be kidding me right? Until 2 or 3 years ago this wasn't even considered a real car any more. And even now, while yes, it does look alot better, it's still the same POS underneath!)

Buick Regal ( this just looks like a bad imitation of a real luxury car and what is up with the "retro" modern grill contraption thing?

Cadillac STS/ CTS This is the best I think we are doing right now, but it's still no where near to their Asian and European counterparts.

Dodge Charger I'm sorry, but these cars are just designed for kids. There is just no sophistication in anything here.

Chrysler 300- Look, it has 22's!!!

Frod Crown Vic- Discontinued. The real american car of all time, ended. with No evolution.

Why do all the american cars have to be a "gimmick." Look at the Camaro. Why does the interior of that car have to look like a matchbox car interior? Slide into a Nissan GTR and look at that interior! NOW YOUR TALKING! Even the Ford Mustang was all hokey until this last year it finally is starting to look like a real car inside!

Geeze, where to start with this one.........first mistake, Taurus was replaced by the Five Hundred for ONE year, not 10. Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality. Lexus? Innovative? The first Lexus looked EXACTLY like a Mercedes. You know it, we all know it. And the first ES? A tarted up Camry. Sophistication? No. The Lexus can't self-park on declines.......hell, even a Focus can do that. Cadillac is now considered by the press as being equal to Lexus. Charger? It fits its market. Crown Vic, being replaced by the Taurus. Lincoln? A 3 year-old Lincoln is more dependable than a 3 year-old Lexus. Lincoln was #1 in reliabilty. Read the study. The government will probably MAKE money from its loans to GM. Lexus is made in the US. Toyota/Lexus engineering is not what it's been hyped up to be. Too many recalls, too many deaths. I'll buy American from now on. Keep the money, jobs here. Please get your facts right before you make such untrue comments on this site. I for one am not drinking anymore Toyota/Lexus Kool-Aid. Too many have died.

.first mistake, Taurus was replaced by the Five Hundred for ONE year, not 10.

Actually, they discontinued the Taurus, then came out with the 500, which was a completely different chassis and drivetrain, then renamed the 500 with the Taurus name again. Which it's been the "500" ever since. So, ok, about 6 years.

Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality. Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality.

This thing? Oh, that's right, you probably wanted to forget this travesty as much as the rest of us!

The first Lexus looked EXACTLY like a Mercedes.

Which even today is still years ahead of anything GM, Ford and Chrysler have done! Maybe the Detroit 3 need to pay attention! What you just said is exactly part of the problem! American cars are ugly! Even to Americans!

The Lexus can't self-park on declines.......hell, even a Focus can do that.

After Lexus showed them it was possible in the first place. Lexus atleast had an original idea.

Lincoln? A 3 year-old Lincoln is more dependable than a 3 year-old Lexus. Lincoln was #1 in reliabilty. Read the study

Well, funny you should bring this up, because in 2007 the only american based Lincoln Murcury factory closed down, and the only two left are 1 in Ontario Canada and the other is in Hermosillo, Sonora Mexico. So, I would imagine that in the last 3 years their reliability rating have gone up. And by the way, the Ford Focus you mentioned is imported by Ford from Hai Duong Vietnam, Azambuja Portugal, Santa Rosa, Laguna Philippines, St. Petersburg Russia, Norlane, Victoria Australia, Valencia Spain, and also in Sonora Mexico. That car isn't even made in the US!

Here's the Wall Street Journals report on total car sales for the last 30 days. http://online.wsj.co...-autosales.html

Now heres the Fleet sales reports for the same 30 days. http://www.automotiv...Up-in-July.aspx

So if you subtract those numbers from their total sales, Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai would all be kicking GM, Ford and Chrysler's butt in sales by people who actually CHOOSE what car they want. And guess who's buying those fleet vehicles to keep the numbers up? You and I are! We buy them with our tax dollars as we HAVE to use Ford, GM or Chrysler for all the police cars, mail trucks, government vehicles, etc. etc. So how exactly did I make any money off the whole GM bail out thing again? Just think about the 1,000's of cars and trucks we buy from companies that know you have to buy them. Yeah, this formula never works and their line up shows it. GM and Ford have catered to the Fleet vehicle sales for years. While all the other car mfgr's have been evolving thier ergonomic designs, actually responding to the consumers like real families and the next generation car buyer. Advancing safety and technology and making them appealing to us. The service centers and the dealership themselves need to be completely revamped and a new philosophy needs to be established. I don't wanna haggle with some coffee breathe chain smoker in the parking lot! I don't want to look forward to cheap hard plastic chairs in the service waiting room and a cheap 19'' TV with rabbit ears pulling in Oprah reruns, while getting my side messaged by the vending machine I need to lean on to make room for the mom and 4 kids and a baby buggy. The Lexus waitng room is paradise in comparison! Yeah, I bought all this with the car just as much as I bought the niegborhood my house is in! Our Lexus dealership in my opinion is a model for how I think all dealership service centers should be. The next time I go there I'll take pictures of the waiting room. I'm not kidding. I'ts like 2 really huge living rooms! Big screen Hi Def TV's with cable, all carpeted and softly and warmly lit. Huge couches and recliners with pillows. A seperate internet cafe, and they provide the computers at seperate stations, or you can use your own laptop, theres a glass "quiet" room for book readers, and there's a seperate "noise proof" room for the kids to go in and play. They have a cafeteria with complimentary drinks and snacks, heck they've even brought and offered me warm baked cookies while I was in the waiting room! and then went around and offered everyone else that was there as well. This is a car service center? Man does GM and Ford have alot to learn.

So what in the last year or two, suddenly GM and Ford and Chrysler now really care about me huh? And I'm just supposed to jump right back on and buy for the purpose of american pride. Well, where's the pride in making a car that I actually want to buy? I pay my taxes. So I already buy american cars because they make us. Where the spirit of free market in that? How is this more American? They made the game rules not me. I now refuse to buy a GM period. Ford atleast is trying, and Chrysler will hopefully let Fiat "design" a car for a change.

You know, I'm not going to sit here and tit for tat over adjacent points. The truth is we taught the Japanese everything we know, and they are kicking our butt's with it, and using the same tactics we showed them back against us, and now we're sniveling and crying fowl as a tool to try and talk people into buying american made cars again. And somehow if your the "largest car mfgr. then that must mean your the best" mentality will continue. It's the only way GM can survive.

Let me say something here about myself so when you need to insult me you have a little more insight. I am an old Chevy man! My dad is one of the areas most respected Ford race engine builders around. We have a 7 second Mustang. There is nothing more that I would like to see is a real car roll off the GM or Ford lines again. But the truth is the truth, and I live my life in the real world. So I drive a Mercedes Benz ML 350, a Lexus IS 350, a Lexus IS 300 Turbo, and a Volkswagen Jetta 2.5. I have a 1969 Camaro convertable in the waiting to rebuild some day rack, and a 71 Cuda that was wrecked and sold to me cheap. Why is it that when we all talk about american cars, the conversation always goes to the 60 and 70's?

[pj8708]

What's truly crazy is that Toyota and Lexus hid safety data then denied there were problems with our cars. One of their own execs said they "needed to come clean" on safety. Toyota/Lexus was fined $64 million for taking months, not the five days as required by law, to notify our government of safety issues. Some issues had been documented for 12 years. Say what you want, Lexus/Toyota only cares about money, not our lives. They've shown that. That SOB's Ranger is probably safer than most of our vehciles. And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Yeah cause GM didn't try to hide it's defective ABS systems for years, and years, and years...and I think they are still battling out. And that issue may or may not over shadow the spark plug ejecting cover up, and Ford has known about it's cruise control issues for way longer than it was covered in the news. Heck, Lincoln/Mercury paid millions in advertising hush money to keep their "unintended stuck accelerator trajedy out of the news when their car killed it's driver and passenger 7 years earlier. You do remember the media flogging they got right? Just like the one Toyota just got? Oh, that's right, it never happened. Toyota pulled their advertising dollars instead. That was Toyota's huge mistake here!

And the highest rated manufacturer in dependability after 3 years of ownership? It wasn't Lexus, Audi, MB, BMW, Acura......it was an American brand.

Well, it's good to see all those billions of dollars GM took from us to pay the magazines to recreate a new image for themselves is getting through. The only problem here is it's complete BS. If you take away just fleet sales, I'm talking car sales to Enterprise car rentals and Budget and those that purchase on short term price and by contracts alone, GM, Ford and Chrysler can not compete in sales, even in just the US market, or especially in the US market. It's the crippling labor unions that have locked up the car companies and hence they will never be able to truly level the playing field. When was the last time american car company innovated something? or lead the technology advancements in true automotive design? Not since the 60's.Unless, you count Lee Iococa's K car concept that did help bring the unibody construction to the forefront, but then again it made car building cheaper, so of course the american car companies jumped on that one! LOL!! take a real look around, for example, the 4 door mid size sedan market.

Lexus GS

Mercedes Benz E 350

BMW 5 series

Acura TL

Audi A6

Hyundai Genesis

Mazda 6

Toyota Camery

Volkswagen Passat

Honda Accord

Then we look at us,

Ford Taurus, really, this car just came back last year. It was discontinued for almost 10 years! Where's Ford loyalty?

Ford Thunderbird, (gone, discontinued.) after being turned into the retro POS!! and completely ruined the legacy.

Chevy Malibu ( You've got to be kidding me right? Until 2 or 3 years ago this wasn't even considered a real car any more. And even now, while yes, it does look alot better, it's still the same POS underneath!)

Buick Regal ( this just looks like a bad imitation of a real luxury car and what is up with the "retro" modern grill contraption thing?

Cadillac STS/ CTS This is the best I think we are doing right now, but it's still no where near to their Asian and European counterparts.

Dodge Charger I'm sorry, but these cars are just designed for kids. There is just no sophistication in anything here.

Chrysler 300- Look, it has 22's!!!

Frod Crown Vic- Discontinued. The real american car of all time, ended. with No evolution.

Why do all the american cars have to be a "gimmick." Look at the Camaro. Why does the interior of that car have to look like a matchbox car interior? Slide into a Nissan GTR and look at that interior! NOW YOUR TALKING! Even the Ford Mustang was all hokey until this last year it finally is starting to look like a real car inside!

Geeze, where to start with this one.........first mistake, Taurus was replaced by the Five Hundred for ONE year, not 10. Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality. Lexus? Innovative? The first Lexus looked EXACTLY like a Mercedes. You know it, we all know it. And the first ES? A tarted up Camry. Sophistication? No. The Lexus can't self-park on declines.......hell, even a Focus can do that. Cadillac is now considered by the press as being equal to Lexus. Charger? It fits its market. Crown Vic, being replaced by the Taurus. Lincoln? A 3 year-old Lincoln is more dependable than a 3 year-old Lexus. Lincoln was #1 in reliabilty. Read the study. The government will probably MAKE money from its loans to GM. Lexus is made in the US. Toyota/Lexus engineering is not what it's been hyped up to be. Too many recalls, too many deaths. I'll buy American from now on. Keep the money, jobs here. Please get your facts right before you make such untrue comments on this site. I for one am not drinking anymore Toyota/Lexus Kool-Aid. Too many have died.

.first mistake, Taurus was replaced by the Five Hundred for ONE year, not 10.

Actually, they discontinued the Taurus, then came out with the 500, which was a completely different chassis and drivetrain, then renamed the 500 with the Taurus name again. Which it's been the "500" ever since. So, ok, about 6 years.

Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality. Thunderbird was on most recommended lists because of its quality.

This thing? Oh, that's right, you probably wanted to forget this travesty as much as the rest of us!

The first Lexus looked EXACTLY like a Mercedes.

Which even today is still years ahead of anything GM, Ford and Chrysler have done! Maybe the Detroit 3 need to pay attention! What you just said is exactly part of the problem! American cars are ugly! Even to Americans!

The Lexus can't self-park on declines.......hell, even a Focus can do that.

After Lexus showed them it was possible in the first place. Lexus atleast had an original idea.

Lincoln? A 3 year-old Lincoln is more dependable than a 3 year-old Lexus. Lincoln was #1 in reliabilty. Read the study

Well, funny you should bring this up, because in 2007 the only american based Lincoln Murcury factory closed down, and the only two left are 1 in Ontario Canada and the other is in Hermosillo, Sonora Mexico. So, I would imagine that in the last 3 years their reliability rating have gone up. And by the way, the Ford Focus you mentioned is imported by Ford from Hai Duong Vietnam, Azambuja Portugal, Santa Rosa, Laguna Philippines, St. Petersburg Russia, Norlane, Victoria Australia, Valencia Spain, and also in Sonora Mexico. That car isn't even made in the US!

Here's the Wall Street Journals report on total car sales for the last 30 days. http://online.wsj.co...-autosales.html

Now heres the Fleet sales reports for the same 30 days. http://www.automotiv...Up-in-July.aspx

So if you subtract those numbers from their total sales, Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai would all be kicking GM, Ford and Chrysler's butt in sales by people who actually CHOOSE what car they want. And guess who's buying those fleet vehicles to keep the numbers up? You and I are! We buy them with our tax dollars as we HAVE to use Ford, GM or Chrysler for all the police cars, mail trucks, government vehicles, etc. etc. So how exactly did I make any money off the whole GM bail out thing again? Just think about the 1,000's of cars and trucks we buy from companies that know you have to buy them. Yeah, this formula never works and their line up shows it. GM and Ford have catered to the Fleet vehicle sales for years. While all the other car mfgr's have been evolving thier ergonomic designs, actually responding to the consumers like real families and the next generation car buyer. Advancing safety and technology and making them appealing to us. The service centers and the dealership themselves need to be completely revamped and a new philosophy needs to be established. I don't wanna haggle with some coffee breathe chain smoker in the parking lot! I don't want to look forward to cheap hard plastic chairs in the service waiting room and a cheap 19'' TV with rabbit ears pulling in Oprah reruns, while getting my side messaged by the vending machine I need to lean on to make room for the mom and 4 kids and a baby buggy. The Lexus waitng room is paradise in comparison! Yeah, I bought all this with the car just as much as I bought the niegborhood my house is in! Our Lexus dealership in my opinion is a model for how I think all dealership service centers should be. The next time I go there I'll take pictures of the waiting room. I'm not kidding. I'ts like 2 really huge living rooms! Big screen Hi Def TV's with cable, all carpeted and softly and warmly lit. Huge couches and recliners with pillows. A seperate internet cafe, and they provide the computers at seperate stations, or you can use your own laptop, theres a glass "quiet" room for book readers, and there's a seperate "noise proof" room for the kids to go in and play. They have a cafeteria with complimentary drinks and snacks, heck they've even brought and offered me warm baked cookies while I was in the waiting room! and then went around and offered everyone else that was there as well. This is a car service center? Man does GM and Ford have alot to learn.

So what in the last year or two, suddenly GM and Ford and Chrysler now really care about me huh? And I'm just supposed to jump right back on and buy for the purpose of american pride. Well, where's the pride in making a car that I actually want to buy? I pay my taxes. So I already buy american cars because they make us. Where the spirit of free market in that? How is this more American? They made the game rules not me. I now refuse to buy a GM period. Ford atleast is trying, and Chrysler will hopefully let Fiat "design" a car for a change.

You know, I'm not going to sit here and tit for tat over adjacent points. The truth is we taught the Japanese everything we know, and they are kicking our butt's with it, and using the same tactics we showed them back against us, and now we're sniveling and crying fowl as a tool to try and talk people into buying american made cars again. And somehow if your the "largest car mfgr. then that must mean your the best" mentality will continue. It's the only way GM can survive.

Let me say something here about myself so when you need to insult me you have a little more insight. I am an old Chevy man! My dad is one of the areas most respected Ford race engine builders around. We have a 7 second Mustang. There is nothing more that I would like to see is a real car roll off the GM or Ford lines again. But the truth is the truth, and I live my life in the real world. So I drive a Mercedes Benz ML 350, a Lexus IS 350, a Lexus IS 300 Turbo, and a Volkswagen Jetta 2.5. I have a 1969 Camaro convertable in the waiting to rebuild some day rack, and a 71 Cuda that was wrecked and sold to me cheap. Why is it that when we all talk about american cars, the conversation always goes to the 60 and 70's?

Well thought out and expressed Smooth.

[smooth1]

We've been thinking about trading the Prius in on an SUV...I went and drove the new Jeep Grand Cherokee and the new Ford Explorer. I had a very annoying Ford salesman (man...you really do slum it when you go down to a non-luxury brand in the dealer network). We were driving the Explorer, drove it around the block. He asked me what my wife drove...told her a Prius. He asked me what I drove...told him a Lexus. He looks at me and says "Shame on you, how can you drive foreign cars and put Americans out of work?" Now...this guy could barely speak english...

I put the car in park and told him that I worked hard for my living and bought what I wanted, and if Ford and GM could build a car that wasn't a complete peice of !Removed! and lost 70% of its value in 3 years, serviced and sold by dealership personnel who could put a complete sentence together and didn't look like they belonged working in a shipyard...I'd be happy to drive one. Got out of the Explorer...got in my Lexus...and drove away LOL

Amen brother!!

Remember when I went to the GM dealerships to look at SUV's? The jerk salesman their made it sooooo easy for Mercedes Benz to sell me an even more expensive SUV! LOL!! But it was, and has been worth it!

[smooth1]

Well thought out and expressed Smooth.

Thank you sir. Sometimes I get a little annoyed and can't help myself.

[SW03ES]

If you want to take your business to GM...go for it. They're making far better vehicles now than they were. They don't make anything yet that really appeals to me. If however you don't expect a pro-Lexus/Toyota attitude on a Lexus/Toyota forum...don't know what to tell you about that.

As for Toyota "killing people", you do realize how the inquisition into the issue by the government would up right? No design or product flaws in the vehicle. Any accidents were simply caused by operator error.