Bluetooth Interface

[magic]

I am planning to buy a LS430(2001-2003) with navigation. Is there any way that a bluetooth phone can be integrated into the nav system? Or to use the car speakers and the muting system? I know that there is a company that does it for BMW so wondering if it is possible with Lexus as well?

[1990LS400]

I've followed this issue closely and have never seen anyone who was able to integrate an aftermarket Bluetooth kit to work with the 01-03 LS navigation like on the 2004-up LS430 or to use the steering wheel controls.

Jainla may respond eventually -- he added a Parrot Bluetooth kit to his 01 LS430 UL so it mutes the audio system and plays the call through the door speaker but the phone can not be dialed from the nav screen.

It's easy enough to add a phone kit to at least mute the audio system and there is plenty of space under the dash to hide a phone kit speaker. I've asked but no one has ever checked his 01-03 LS430 to see if it has phone connectors under the center console like the LS400 did for 11 years. The 01-03 LS430 was available, at least in the states, with a dealer installed Lexus phone. I connected my phone kit's mute wire to a mute pin under the center console of my 00 LS400 and hid the speaker under the dash.

Lexus and Toyota dealers in the UK and Europe currently sell the Motorola IHF1000 Bluetooth kit, rebranded with Lexus and Toyota logos, as official dealer installed accessories for Lexus and Toyota vehicles that do not already have Bluetooth. As sold there, the IHF1000 plays the call through the door speakers and has an optional phone charging cradle with external antenna connection.

There is at least one company, Connects2, that provides at least some integration of aftermarket phone kits into BMW and a few other vehicles, included a few Toyotas, sold in Europe: http://www.connects2.com/

[jainla]

Ahh the age old Bluetooth question-- If you search in the Audio Video forum you'll find my complete instructions on how I wired the '01 LS for bluetooth. I used a Parrot kit and it works great; but tapping into the OEM wiring harness for the left rear door speaker is hairy (the wiring is in the trunk--you'll have to be handy with a soldering iron and comfortable taking your car apart). I didn't try to use the steering wheel controls; they are integrated into the radio electronics and the whole business sits on the AVC-LAN network.

There isn't a muting lead in the armrest (to answer your question Jim B) ) but there is an antenna connection under there (for the roof antenna). There is a muting lead one on the back of the stereo behind the CD player/radio in the center stack; I think it's the yellow wire in the 20 pin connector. If you log onto techinfo.lexus.com you can download the wiring schematics that will tell you where this wire is; as well as the switched and non-switched power leads.

You can now get a harness adaptor that converts the non-standard Toyota radio wiring harness to an ISO (Parrot compatible) harness: http://www.quickconnectproducts.com/. You'll still need to connect the Parrot kit to an external speaker somewhere but it's a clean and easy way to tap into the muting and power leads.

Jim is right in that any aftermarket system won't integrate with the Nav (you won't be able to dial from the nav screen) but most aftermarket kits have more features than the standard Toyota integration; auto-syncing of contacts and the ability to voice dial with your phone's voice-dial capability or the kit's. Newer kits have speaker-independent voice recognition. There was also a company (I think it might have been Raytel) that made a kit that DID appear on the Nav screen; but it wasn't integrated with the Nav system and was really expensive.

I figured out that Lexus UK OEM's the BURY phone cradles as the 'phone fitting kit'; they have charging connections and inductive antenna hookups for a variety of phones; I've been thinking about getting one but they are hard to find here.

FWIW-- I think the BMW bluetooth retrofit you're talking about is actually an OEM BMW component; it integrates into the wiring for the BMW Assist system (your car needs to be pre-wired for it) and uses that functionality to tap into the radio.

Good luck!

[magic]

Ahh the age old Bluetooth question-- If you search in the Audio Video forum you'll find my complete instructions on how I wired the '01 LS for bluetooth. I used a Parrot kit and it works great; but tapping into the OEM wiring harness for the left rear door speaker is hairy (the wiring is in the trunk--you'll have to be handy with a soldering iron and comfortable taking your car apart). I didn't try to use the steering wheel controls; they are integrated into the radio electronics and the whole business sits on the AVC-LAN network.

There isn't a muting lead in the armrest (to answer your question Jim B) ) but there is an antenna connection under there (for the roof antenna). There is a muting lead one on the back of the stereo behind the CD player/radio in the center stack; I think it's the yellow wire in the 20 pin connector. If you log onto techinfo.lexus.com you can download the wiring schematics that will tell you where this wire is; as well as the switched and non-switched power leads.

You can now get a harness adaptor that converts the non-standard Toyota radio wiring harness to an ISO (Parrot compatible) harness: http://www.quickconnectproducts.com/. You'll still need to connect the Parrot kit to an external speaker somewhere but it's a clean and easy way to tap into the muting and power leads.

Jim is right in that any aftermarket system won't integrate with the Nav (you won't be able to dial from the nav screen) but most aftermarket kits have more features than the standard Toyota integration; auto-syncing of contacts and the ability to voice dial with your phone's voice-dial capability or the kit's. Newer kits have speaker-independent voice recognition. There was also a company (I think it might have been Raytel) that made a kit that DID appear on the Nav screen; but it wasn't integrated with the Nav system and was really expensive.

I figured out that Lexus UK OEM's the BURY phone cradles as the 'phone fitting kit'; they have charging connections and inductive antenna hookups for a variety of phones; I've been thinking about getting one but they are hard to find here.

FWIW-- I think the BMW bluetooth retrofit you're talking about is actually an OEM BMW component; it integrates into the wiring for the BMW Assist system (your car needs to be pre-wired for it) and uses that functionality to tap into the radio.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot guys. It was very informative. I would be perfectly happy if I can get the phone to work through the car speaker system and be able to mute the sound system.

UK and Europe I think is more advanced in electronics than over here. In UK even a 1998 car with an integrated phone would be GSM and over here, at least in Canada it was not.

Do a lot of pre 2004 LS430s, come with factory fitted phones?

Thanks once again.

[jainla]

Thanks a lot guys. It was very informative. I would be perfectly happy if I can get the phone to work through the car speaker system and be able to mute the sound system.

UK and Europe I think is more advanced in electronics than over here. In UK even a 1998 car with an integrated phone would be GSM and over here, at least in Canada it was not.

Do a lot of pre 2004 LS430s, come with factory fitted phones?

Thanks once again.

I drove 3 LS430s when i was shopping and none of them had an OEM phone. In mine the previous owner had taken apart one of those little speaker-in-a-box kits and installed the speaker in the center console box. It didn't mute anything but I bet it did the job (I could never figure out what phone it was for). You see them every once in a while on cars on Ebay but I don't think it was that popular.

GSM started in Europe as a way to get phones to work seamlessly across countries so for years they had much better coverage there than the US. Lexus was partnered with Sprint for the longest time; and the divorce was nasty. Apparently as soon as they went Bluetooth dealers threw out all the phone parts and stopped supporting the OEM units.

The '01-02 phones were Denso/Touchpoint 2200's. It's at best a crappy phone and I think they only run on the Sprint CDMA network. For '03 the phone was a Nokia 6300 series (for just that one year). I don't know if they partnered with a specific carrier or not; but those phones are still available for a variety of carriers. They also support bluetooth so you could use a headset with it when you're out of the car.

I know with Mercedes and BMWs the phones sold with OEM phone systems need special firmware to communicate with the electronics in the car; so I don't know if any Nokia 6300 phone would work with an '03. The electronics were similar so if you were really persistent you could try to find the hardware from an '03 and swap it into an '02. The Nav system in the '01 is slightly different so I'm not sure if it would work.

That's the advantage of going Bluetooth; if you change phones frequently it's a standard interface so almost any phone will work.

[1990LS400]

Thanks a lot guys. It was very informative. I would be perfectly happy if I can get the phone to work through the car speaker system and be able to mute the sound system.

UK and Europe I think is more advanced in electronics than over here. In UK even a 1998 car with an integrated phone would be GSM and over here, at least in Canada it was not.

Do a lot of pre 2004 LS430s, come with factory fitted phones?

Thanks once again.

I suggest that you not focus too much on getting the phone call audio to play through the car's door speakers. I suppose it is nice not to have to mount a separate phone kit speaker but like I said, there is plenty of room under the dash to put a speaker in most cars. Attached is a photo showing where I installed a phone kit speaker by the parking brake in my 2000 LS400. It can't be seen unless one gets on the hands and knees to look. An "add-a-circuit" connector, available at auto parts stores, could be used to pick up power for a phone kit from the under-dash fuse box.

The UK and Europe didn't have a bizillon different phone companies each with there own network like we have in the US. I don't know haw many cell phone companies you have in Canada. I'm thinking my phone said I was on the Rogers network when I was at a family reunion near London, Ontario last summer. I got a kick out of the fixed Lexus phones in the UK 98-00 LS400 -- one could take a SIM card out of a hand held cell GSM phone, slip it into the SIM card slot of the Lexus phone and you were good to go.

I'm doubting that many Lexus phone systems were installed in the 2001 - 2003 LS430 here in the US. (The phones were installed by Lexus dealers and not at the factory. Most Lexus cars prior to 2004 were prewired at the factory for phone systems.) By 2001, anyone who would be buying a new Lexus LS would likely already have a handheld cell phone and the phone that came with the Lexus system was not exactly state of the art. I'll attach the installation instructions for the 2001 LS430 phone system for it's humor value.

While I'm at it, I'll attach the audio system diagrams for the 2001 LS430.

2001_LS430_dual_mode_phone_install_doc.pdf

2001_LS430_audio_1.pdf

2001_LS430_audio_2.pdf

[jainla]

I'm doubting that many Lexus phone systems were installed in the 2001 - 2003 LS430 here in the US. (The phones were installed by Lexus dealers and not at the factory. Most Lexus cars prior to 2004 were prewired at the factory for phone systems.) By 2001, anyone who would be buying a new Lexus LS would likely already have a handheld cell phone and the phone that came with the Lexus system was not exactly state of the art.

None of the OEM systems had great phones; I believe the last Mercedes OEM phone was a Motorola V60. That's in 2005 when that phone was almost 6 years old. Also BMW was using some kind of timeport phone until 2004; another 5-6 year old phone.

I guess they design the phone systems with whatever phone are about to come out at that time; and then stick with it until the car electronics get revised. God help you if you lose one of those special OEM phones; I think they are like $1000 from the dealer.

[1990LS400]

GSM started in Europe as a way to get phones to work seamlessly across countries so for years they had much better coverage there than the US. Lexus was partnered with Sprint for the longest time; and the divorce was nasty. Apparently as soon as they went Bluetooth dealers threw out all the phone parts and stopped supporting the OEM units.

Jainla, you are one quick dude! Sprint - the company pretending to be a phone company. Yep, I visited my Lexus dealer in fall 2003 right after I bought my 2000 LS400 used and I was told they had just put all their spare phone parts and documentation in the dumpster. They just didn't want to talk about it. Or they were *BLEEP*ed that I didn't buy the 2004 LS430 I was offered by the salesman they fired during the negotiation or that I instead went off and bought a used 00 LS from another dealer. In fall 2003, the local Lexus people were unable to demonstrate that they could make a Bluetooth phone work with the 2004 LS430 Bluetooth system -- they told me to buy the car and trust that they would eventually be able to make it work. I may have said something like "Bull$#!+".

For '03 the phone was a Nokia 6300 series (for just that one year). I don't know if they partnered with a specific carrier or not; but those phones are still available for a variety of carriers. They also support bluetooth so you could use a headset with it when you're out of the car.

I think it was the Nokia 6310i which was GSM only and the carrier was Cingular. The problem was that, at the time, GSM hardly worked anywhere except in metro areas and along the interstate. Cingular finally offered the Nokia 6340i in January 2004 after its intro had been delayed for months - I got the very first one sold in Kansas City. The 6340i is virtually identical in appearance to the 6310i except without Bluetooth and with AMPS and TDMA in addition to two GSM bands. Unlike the 6310i Lexus was pushing, the 6340i seemed to work "everywhere".

I know with Mercedes and BMWs the phones sold with OEM phone systems need special firmware to communicate with the electronics in the car; so I don't know if any Nokia 6300 phone would work with an '03. The electronics were similar so if you were really persistent you could try to find the hardware from an '03 and swap it into an '02. The Nav system in the '01 is slightly different so I'm not sure if it would work.

I know that the old Qualcomm handsets used in the Lexus phone system used special firmware. A few people reported on forums that they bought Qualcomm handsets without the Lexus logo, couldn't make them work and Lexus wouldn't help them by providing the special phone software.

Jainla,

Speaking of Mercedes, I forgot that Mercedes offers charging cradles with antenna connections which are very similar to the ones from Bury and Lexus/Toyota dealers in the UK/Europe. It's the simpler "MHI Hands-Free Communication System - Telephone Cradle" -- you can see it on the US Mercedes website.

That's the advantage of going Bluetooth; if you change phones frequently it's a standard interface so almost any phone will work.

Unless it's an iPhone!

[BillyShaft]

They just didn't want to talk about it. Or they were *BLEEP*ed that I didn't buy the 2004 LS430 I was offered by the salesman they fired during the negotiation or that I instead went off and bought a used 00 LS from another dealer.

ok

There is a juicy story here...GIVE! :D

[jainla]

Jainla, you are one quick dude! Sprint - the company pretending to be a phone company. Yep, I visited my Lexus dealer in fall 2003 right after I bought my 2000 LS400 used and I was told they had just put all their spare phone parts and documentation in the dumpster. They just didn't want to talk about it. Or they were *BLEEP*ed that I didn't buy the 2004 LS430 I was offered by the salesman they fired during the negotiation or that I instead went off and bought a used 00 LS from another dealer. In fall 2003, the local Lexus people were unable to demonstrate that they could make a Bluetooth phone work with the 2004 LS430 Bluetooth system -- they told me to buy the car and trust that they would eventually be able to make it work. I may have said something like "Bull$#!+".

LOL! It's probably your post I remembered! I'm not that quick but I do have a good memory. :)

The 6340i is virtually identical in appearance to the 6310i except without Bluetooth and with AMPS and TDMA in addition to two GSM bands. Unlike the 6310i Lexus was pushing, the 6340i seemed to work "everywhere".

That sounds like a cool phone. My old AT&T Timeport AMPS/TDMA phone did work everywhere. Even in the back of beyond in rural Connecticut where nobody else had service. I miss that phone sometimes.

Jainla,

Speaking of Mercedes, I forgot that Mercedes offers charging cradles with antenna connections which are very similar to the ones from Bury and Lexus/Toyota dealers in the UK/Europe. It's the simpler "MHI Hands-Free Communication System - Telephone Cradle" -- you can see it on the US Mercedes website.

The MHI system is really cool. It's a standard interface that connects to the radio or the COMMAND system; as well as providing antenna and and power leads. Inside the cradles are electronics that interface with the MHI box and link to COMMAND; it downloads the phone book, call lists, etc and makes the phone work with the audio system. They have Motorola & Nokia cradles and an iPhone cradle, for an OEM system it's a surprising array of phones. It's probably why the cradles are so expensive.

They also have a couple Bluetooth adaptors that plug into the MHI connector; and one of them comes with a privacy handset. In Europe they even support rSAP (which almost no phone here supports) so that you can use the car's antenna without actually connecting your phone. BMW has a similar (maybe the same) system; I hate to say it but on technical sophistication it's probably one of the best OEM systems out there right now. The only problem is that it's expensive; the MHI prep (prewiring and the box for the MOST fiber network) is ~$1000; and then the cradles or BT adaptor is another $350. The reseller's site is here.

There is also a way to retrofit the pre- MHI system to work with bluetooth-you buy a 'puck' that plugs into the old V60i cradle and takes the place of the phone (someone also makes a firmware hack to make it work with the BMW and Audi systems). It's basically a bluetooth connection point for whatever phone you want. I bet sooner or later someone will do that for the Nokia 63XX phones; they were very popular and there's probably a large installed base that would like to upgrade without ripping out the existing system.

The hard-wired cradles still seem to be really popular in Europe; I know that for a while in the UK Bluetooth was technically illegal because you were 'broadcasting' on a band that needed a license to operate! Maybe also going down the Autobahn at 100+ mph you pass through the cells so quickly you need an external antenna? Who knows.

That's the advantage of going Bluetooth; if you change phones frequently it's a standard interface so almost any phone will work.

Unless it's an iPhone!

That might be changing; that's why the Gen 6 nav system is such big news. Parrot says that they can get the phone's address book to sync on the iPhone; the kit itself pulls the phonebook instead of waiting for you to send it from the phone (which of course Apple won't let you do). My old 8700 BB had a crippled bluetooth implementation very similar to the iPhone's and it did also sync with the Parrot kit. I think the G6 nav system might use the same protocol as I was able to pull out my entire address book without doing anything on the phone itself. This would put it on par with the MB and BMW systems which also support autosync.

Jim- I attached the photo of the connector under the LS 430 armrest; all the way on the top is the coax for the antenna (it's covered in tape). The big white one is the connector that terminates in the truck under the parcel shelf.

[magic]

Thanks guys. Where I live in Canada, the only GSM provider is Rogers. The easier option is I guess to use one of those bluetooth rearview mirrors but the down side is that then I loose the auto dimming mirror. I think I will go with Parrot if thats the best choice.

The European models, with the factory installed phones, though not bluetooth was handy. Since all you need is change the sim card, you can use it with any provider.

[magic]

I guess the LS430 earlier models do not come with steering wheel controls either? Also what is the best Parrot system around? If Parrot is the best?

Thanks guys.

[jainla]

I guess the LS430 earlier models do not come with steering wheel controls either?

They do but they are tough to get to. The 'hook' button is actually hidden under the Voice Command button; there was an insert that replaces the Vol + - and Voice Command buttons with a new set of keys that include the phone button as well as replacing the volume +/- with the Phone's 1,2,3 speed dial buttons. Then you have to reprogram the radio to use those buttons for the phone instead of the radio volume control

I think the 'hook' button signal can be found on lead 5 of the 20 pin junction connector in the trunk but I can't be sure. The 1,2,3 commands might go over the AVC-LAN network somehow so who knows how you would trap those signals.

Also what is the best Parrot system around? If Parrot is the best?

It depends. If you are going to have an installer do the job then go with the systems they recommend; they're probably more comfortable installing what they sell.

For the DIY the 3 big options seem to be Motorola, Nokia and Parrot. I think Sony dropped their system.

The Motorola IHF 1000 is really popular and it's been around for a while. Audi and Lexus seem to be offering it as a retrofit option on their pre-bluetooth cars. I've seen several people on these forums, the Audiworld and MB forums fit them successfully.

Nokia makes some really nice systems but they are expensive and some of them aren't sold here.

Parrot is good about releasing firmware updates and car kits are a major line of business for them; they seem to release new models regularly and they aren't too expensive. I liked the Parrot b/c the little screen fits in the center console box; I didn't want to to be left out as a temptation for thieves. Raytel (now Ego Hands Free) and Bury also make kits of varying complexity but they not as common; the Raytel kits from what I remember are also expensive.

Screens are also becoming more common; some kits integrate them nicely with the control buttons. The Parrot was the first kit with a color screen when I did my install but now Nokia, Bury and Ego kits also have them. They are really useful during setup phase and for the caller ID. Some of the controller/screen combos might fit nicely on the lid of the sunglasses box; but I had the Lexus Link switches there and didn't want to remove them.

[magic]

Thanks. I will look at all these then. I need to use the speaker system in the car and for it to mute automatically when calls come through.

[jainla]

If you could find the '03 with the Nokia kit this might work:

http://www.viseeo.com/ugC_ShowroomItem_Det...p;hidClickNum=Y

Not so sure about the firmware though; but if you were to find one it might be worth a try.

[magic]

Don't the Parrot system have auto muting and the sound through the main car speakers?

[1990LS400]

If you could find the '03 with the Nokia kit this might work:

http://www.viseeo.com/ugC_ShowroomItem_Det...p;hidClickNum=Y

Not so sure about the firmware though; but if you were to find one it might be worth a try.

Jainla has an interesting idea. The phone cradle in the 03 LS430 with the dealer installed phone appears to be the same cradle that is part of the Nokia CARK-91 phone kit. Here is another adapter that converts a Nokia CARK-91 handset cradle to Bluetooth: http://www.foneshop.com/accessories/description/2358 I would be surprised if it worked with the 03 LS430 phone system but there is a chance.

[1990LS400]

Don't the Parrot system have auto muting and the sound through the main car speakers?

Virtually all phone kits, including Parrot, have a mute wire (industry standard color "yellow") and can be connected to play the phone call audio through a car's door speakers. It's usually up to the installer to understand how to connect the phone kit to the car -- either with an adapter harness or by wiring the kit directly by hacking into the car's wiring.

Installers in the U.S. tend to use external speakers with phone kits because "mute leads" with car speaker interfaces are rare for U.S. cars. The installation of hands free phone kits in Europe is more advanced -- perhaps because laws prohibiting the use of hand held phones while driving are more common .... and perhaps because audio systems in Europe are more standardized using ISO and DIN standards ... and perhaps because cell phones were more common earlier in Europe than in the U.S. There has long been a thriving industry in the U.K. and Europe producing interface products for phone kits.

I know all this might sound complicated but it will seem simpler the more you read about phone kits and read their installation instructions. I probably did 100+ hours on research before I installed a phone kit in my 2000 LS. My install was especially complex and took about 16 hours -- a very long day.

I'm sure Jainla or I would be willing to come and help you if you buy one of us an airline ticket! ;)

[magic]

Yes, I have realised that it was a lot easier in UK and Europe with cell phones. I do not want a separate speaker installed so will look for an installation that can use the car speakers and the muting.

Thanks

[blake918]

That's the advantage of going Bluetooth; if you change phones frequently it's a standard interface so almost any phone will work.

Unless it's an iPhone!

So true. My iPhone is the reason I haven't put a carphone in my 99 since there are always new bluetooth problems with every firmware release. I'm thinking about getting a CK7Wi (which has bluetooth and pop-port hook-ups) so that if/when the iPhone and bluetooth don't work, I can get a pop-port Nokia that will, and it won't be a total waste of money!

[1990LS400]

I do not want a separate speaker installed so will look for an installation that can use the car speakers and the muting.

Thanks

You may not "want" a separate speaker but you should know that 99+% of aftermarket phone kit installations in the North America use a separate speaker. It's just not a big deal -- the phone call audio from an external speaker is as good and sometimes far better than if the call is placed through the door speakers.

In fact some car kit manufacturers recommend that their kits be connected to the car's door speakers only as a last resort and only if the car has no place to mount a dedicated phone kit speaker.

[magic]

Maybe I should have rephrased my statement. I want the sound( music) to be muted when a call comes through. Whether they install a separate speaker or not is alright with me.

1990LS400, I am kind of surprised that they are doing this still here. Even in 1999 any decent aftermarket phone installer, certainly in the UK would be easily able to fit the system to the car speaker and the sound system.

[1990LS400]

Maybe I should have rephrased my statement. I want the sound( music) to be muted when a call comes through. Whether they install a separate speaker or not is alright with me.

1990LS400, I am kind of surprised that they are doing this still here. Even in 1999 any decent aftermarket phone installer, certainly in the UK would be easily able to fit the system to the car speaker and the sound system.

Installers in the U.S. just don't want the liability of frying a multi-thousand dollar audio system. My car was under warranty when I installed my kit in 2003 and none of the many installers I called would begin to consider looking for a mute wire on the audio system. That's when I spent a 100+ hours figuring it out myself and why I connected everything up without cutting into any wires -- I didn't want to fry my expensive Nak audio.

Views on this subject are completely different in the UK and Europe... different expectations ... its weird.

[jainla]

Maybe I should have rephrased my statement. I want the sound( music) to be muted when a call comes through. Whether they install a separate speaker or not is alright with me.

1990LS400, I am kind of surprised that they are doing this still here. Even in 1999 any decent aftermarket phone installer, certainly in the UK would be easily able to fit the system to the car speaker and the sound system.

This is true if it's a simple DIN radio that's all in the dash; and the Parrot and Nokia kits include the ISO connectors that would let you do that. But with satellite radio, Nav systems etc the sound systems of today are much more complex than they were back then. Also many luxury cars (the Ls 430 included) spread the parts out all over; the radio tuner and power amp for the Pioneer and ML sound systems is actually in the trunk (next to the NAV computer). This makes tapping into the speakers a royal pain unless you want to run wiring back and forth to the head unit; or unless the installer splices into the car's wiring harness.

Jim is right the replacement parts for the ML are unbelievably expensive if you buy them new from the dealer; i think the amp itself is several thousand bucks.

[jainla]

That's the advantage of going Bluetooth; if you change phones frequently it's a standard interface so almost any phone will work.

Unless it's an iPhone!

So true. My iPhone is the reason I haven't put a carphone in my 99 since there are always new bluetooth problems with every firmware release. I'm thinking about getting a CK7Wi (which has bluetooth and pop-port hook-ups) so that if/when the iPhone and bluetooth don't work, I can get a pop-port Nokia that will, and it won't be a total waste of money!

I saw someone (they might be called Mobile fun?) ) makes a bluetooth cradle replacement for the Nokia CARK series kits. It replaces the original cradle with a bluetooth enabled universal cradle that lets you upgrade without ripping everything out.

In the last year or so everybody seems to have gotten their act together on the bluetooth front; the hands=free profile has been around for a while now and finally seems to have stabilized. Streaming stereo audio and higher data rates seem to be what everybody is excited about now.