1992 Es300

[Anovice]

Yesterday I noticed anti-freeze leaking under the car and the level in the overflow reservoir starting to go down. Fortunately (I guess) I was still able to see fluid in the reservoir. However, the first thing I did was add some anti-freeze and water to the reservoir and drove the 4 miles to the mechanics.

Late yesterday afternoon the mechanic took a quick look and felt it was the freeze out plug. Upon a more detail look this morning and after taking the exhaust manafold off, he now says it's the head gasket. He called the machine shop, which I don't quite understand, but said to machine the "heads" and he wanted to get me a maximum cost.

This morning he called me with the damage. First, please understand I know nothing about cars. The estimate is $1,830 wich includes the machine shop. He mentioned about 11 hours of time. It does not include a timing belt as that was changed last year. He said I get all new gaskets and seals from the head up...valve cover gasket, cam seals, head and exhaust gasket ansd so on. I guess this means nothing under the head is touched (oil pan and whatever else is there and I mention this because the car leaks oil).

My car has 145,000 miles on it and while I have changed all fluids religiously since day one, the car is aged...no radio, no dashboard lights, but more so and for some time now the car has leaked oil. Recently I have been adding about a quart of oil every two months and I can see smoke from oil burning off the manifold at the rear of the engine (near the firewall). I have no idea if I went forward and spent the $1,830 if all the oil leaks would be fixed. If not, why do it.

So to the questions. What do I do? It seems like putting $2,000 (with tax) in this car is a bit much. I am still left with a 1992 with a 145,000 miles and who knows what is next ready to go.

If the feelings are not to put the money in, I guess I could try to sell the car, of course disclosing the problem and hopefully I would be able to find a buyer. In that case, how do I come come to an asking price? Would one way be to find the blue book price and subtrack $2,000?

Your ideas and suggestions would be highly appreciated.

Anovice

[blk_on_blk]

Hey Anovice,

First things first, there are some simple things to look at regarding a blown head gasket:

1) If you check your oil and it's a bit 'milky' looking with cream-colored streaks/globs in it, that's a good indication of a blown head gasket (it means antifreeze is leaking past and into the oil).

2) A blown head gasket often leads to white smoke out of the exhaust. That is burning antifreeze that is seeping into the combustion chamber.

3) A compression check in each cylinder will also be a good indicator of a blow head gasket or cracked/warped head.

If it is truly a blown head gasket, you can repair it, but then you are breaking open a high mileage engine like you said and you'll want to do some maintenance stuff in there while it's apart, such as other gaskets/seals. In the end you'll still have a 145K mile engine with all the wear that entails.

The other route you can do is to source a used replacement engine, then just have the shop do the pull-n-replace swap. We had this done on our '95. I believe the "good running used" engine long-block was ~$600, and that was with a warranty. Install was maybe $1000. For that price, you can even have a new main rear seal put in for insurance while the engine is out. Then you'll be out ~$1600-$1700, but you'll have a newer, less mileage engine with a small warranty... a much better situation to be in. They will reuse all your intake manifold, electronics, etc., so the only thing that changes is the long block. Then there is no machining, no real reassembly of core engine components, and more. Here's a perfect example of an absolutely complete engine for $600: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...em=250308437781 This one even comes with a warranty. This vendor has a 100% seller's feeback with over 300 sales... sounds pretty reputable. Your shop should be able to source an engine of equal quality (or just have your shop work with this vendor). All you'd need then is the labor to do the swap. I'd call around different reputable independant shops and see what they bid to do an engine swap. I think you'd be better off in the long run, plus having a newer, lower mileage engine will help when you do go to resell the vehcile.

Good luck in what ever path you take!

[George_Jetson]

I'd have to agree, the mechanic sounds like he is giving it to you straight, but in the end at best you till have a engine that is half way thru it's lifetime. The ebay engine on the other hand is low mileage (Japanesse emissions laws are so strick, that they have to replace the engine and trany around 40 to 60 K miles). I have installed several of these engines, and trannys with no issues. You could probably save a few dollars replacing the engine, and you would end up with a low mileage engine, as a bonus, most of these engines come with all accessories, ALT, power steering pump, etc. In the long run these engines can save a considerable amount.

[Anovice]

blk_on_blk,

First, I would like to say thank you for your reply and a detailed one at that.

Since my post, I have a little more information to offer. The mechanic did in fact pressure tested the system. He did it by taking off the radiator cap and I guess what amounts to blowing air in. By doing so he was able to see liquid come out. The intital problem he had was due to the exhaust manafold, he was not able to get a good view of where the liquid was coming out. He removed the exhaust manafold and concluded it was the head gasket.

That said, I called a few Lexus dealers in my general area. Interestingly, each one said they rarely have seen this happen on this car. What struck my attention was that each said the same thing. And, as you mentioned, each asked if I am seeing white smoke out of the exhaust. The answer is no. I was also asked if the car overheated and that answer is no too. In fact, the temperature guage did not even go up, but that could be because I made certain there was liquid in the overflow reservoir. But, when pressure tested, liquid did come out and knowing the mechanic I do not have a reason to question his honesty.

Tomorrow I will pick up the car, double check for white smoke and check the oil as you suggest. Am I correct to say that I can drive the car so long as I make certain antifreeze and water is in the overflow reservoir tank? The reason I ask beyond the obvious is that living in a city I am only putting on 4,000 miles per year. If it's only a question of insuring that there is liquid in the overflow reservoir and cleaning up a mess in my garage (I can put a turkey pan under the spot it is dripping and re-use the antifreeze ;-) them maybe I can get by for the time being. Based on yesterday it will be a headache, but that may just mean I cut down from 4,000 miles to 3,000 per year.

Assuming it is the head gasket, you have not given me any encouragememt on making the repairs. Thank you for your honesty. Yes, I will still have an engine with 145,000 miles and still one that leaks oil. I will check into the other route, that of a replacement engine. However, if I can do nothing for the time being except watch the fluid level, that may be my best short term option. Again, please give your thoughts in this regard.

I may have one other option. A good friends aunt recently passed away and she had a 1995 Lincoln Towncar "The Shark". Becuase she loved this car so much and was a bit crazy, two years ago put in a new engine, new suspension and new tires. Since, less than 5,000 miles have been put on. The interior and exterior are in excellent condition. I would be able to get this car for $2,000. Just another option.

Anovice

[Lexucan]

The other route you can do is to source a used replacement engine, then just have the shop do the pull-n-replace swap. We had this done on our '95. I believe the "good running used" engine long-block was ~$600, and that was with a warranty. Install was maybe $1000. For that price, you can even have a new main rear seal put in for insurance while the engine is out. Then you'll be out ~$1600-$1700, but you'll have a newer, less mileage engine with a small warranty... a much better situation to be in. They will reuse all your intake manifold, electronics, etc., so the only thing that changes is the long block. Then there is no machining, no real reassembly of core engine components, and more. Here's a perfect example of an absolutely complete engine for $600: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...em=250308437781 This one even comes with a warranty. This vendor has a 100% seller's feeback with over 300 sales... sounds pretty reputable. Your shop should be able to source an engine of equal quality (or just have your shop work with this vendor). All you'd need then is the labor to do the swap. I'd call around different reputable independant shops and see what they bid to do an engine swap. I think you'd be better off in the long run, plus having a newer, lower mileage engine will help when you do go to resell the vehcile.

^^ I agree 100% with blk_on_blk that an engine swap is the way to go. HERE is another reputable source for used engines from Japan - www.tigerjapanese.com

I found out about them through the Lexus ES300 forums quite a while ago, and from what I've read, no one who has bought from them has been disappointed.

In my opinion, if you are going to spend close to $2k just to replace the head gaskets, then why not spend about the same amount for a lower mileage engine? My service shop told me something that makes sense. He said doing a head gasket job on a high mileage engine will fix the head gasket leak but you still have a high mileage engine. And with new head gaskets installed, the compression will increase and this could potentially lead to extra stress on other parts of the old engine. :(

[blk_on_blk]

Hmm... now I'm starting to think you just have a leak in your cooling system, not a blown head gasket. Pressurizing the cooling system is a good way to check for a leak in the cooling system, but not for a blown head gasket. A "compression check" means taking out each spark plug and !Removed! in a gauge and turning over the engine and checking compression in each cylinder. If one is low, then that could be an indication of the compression blowing past the head gasket. You should have your mechanic run a compression check of each cylinder. If you don't have any smoke, you don't have milky oil, and your compression is good in each cylinder, then I HIGHLY doubt you have a blown head gasket. It would be very strange to have coolant weeping out the side of the head and not have any kind of combustion chamber issues (which it doesn't sound like you do). I would think that would be a cracked head, but then that would be a very strange failure... very strange.

I'm not sure how the ES engine is configured, but you've got ports for coolant on the block (usually a pair of ports for the heater core: one incoming and one outgoing, and primary cooling at the water pump... could be some peripheral ports, too). I have a feeling you've got a leak at one of those fittings... and I bet it's leaking into the groove where the head meets the block and propagating along that interface, probably looking like the leak is coming from there. I would have your mechanic check all the coolant fittings and really see if one of those isn't the origin of your leak.

I don't think you are risking anything by continuing to drive your vehicle, unless the leak is coming from a rotted and failing heater core or radiator hose, which could burst on you. I would keep the coolant topped off, and keep to see if the leakage is the same amount. If the amount increases, then stop driving it. It sounds like just a small leak.

Again, I would have your mechanic run a cylinder compression check and then search the coolant ports for the source of the leak. If your compression is good, then I'd really be looking at one of the coolant ports as the source.

[SRA]

If you have not already done so, then maybe u can try the following.

If you have access to the factory service manual for the 1993 ES 300 (which u can download from this site), then on page EG 254 you will find the procedure to inspect the cooling system for leaks. I have cut and paste this procedure here for ur convenience. You can try to get your mechanic to try it out to confirm or rule out a leak in the cooling system.

2. INSPECT COOLING SYSTEM FOR LEAKS

(a) Fill the radiator and engine with engine coolant and attach a radiator cap tester to the water outlet.

(B) Warm up the engine.

© Disconnect the reservoir hose from the radiator overflow pipe.

(d) Install a rubber cap onto the radiator overflow pipe, then fix the rubber cap in place with a clip.

(e) Pump it to 127 kPa (1.3 kgf/cm2, 18.5 psi) and check that the pressure does not drop. If the pressure drops, check for leaks from the hoses, radiator or water pump. If no external leaks are found, check the heater core, cylinder block and head.

(f) Remove the radiator cap tester and install the radiator cap to the water outlet.

(g) Remove the clip and rubber cap from the radiator overflow pipe.

(h) Connect the reservoir hose to the radiator overflow pipe.

Please update this thread with your findings for the rest of us.

Hope this helps.

[Anovice]

Again, thanks so much for your posts.

I called the mechanic this morning and I got the feeling I am running the course with him, albeit I do know another mechanic.

He said that he visually saw the leak and it is from the head gasket. He futher said since it is an "external" leak and not an "internal" one, that I the oil would not look milky and I would not see whote smoke from the exhaust. For the same reason, he said a compression test would not tell us anything.

Asa a long shot he mentioned a polymer sealer product by the name of Blue Devil or Blue something. I put the name in Google, but came up empty. For use he would need to drain the radiator (I think he said twice) and to me it sounds like throwing good money after bad. Does anyone have any familiarity with this product or any other sealer?

Unless I go to the other mechanic I know, it looks like the only other option I have is to replace the engine on ebay or tigerJapanese.com. Since buying one online is WAY over my head, can someone spend a few more minutes educating me. For instance, are these motors rebuilt? Low mileage? Then, how do you know if they really are low mileage and so on.

Anovice.

[SRA]

If you would like to try a different mechanic, you can go to www.cartalk.com (these guys have a weekly car show on NPR) and enter your zip code and find a mechanic (relatively a more reliable one). Once you do that, u can tell the new mechanic all you want him to do is to inspect the cooling system for leaks using the procedure from the repair manual. That way you have a second opinion and in my experience it has always been worth the trouble to get a second opinion. Even if u replace the engine, but if the radiator is bad, it may not solve your cooling problem even with the new engine in place. Just a suggestion.

[blk_on_blk]

Yeah, I know what your mechanic is talking about... he's talking about using 'form-a-gasket', and the Blue-whatever is a brand name (I think the blue is a Permatex product). Either way, it's a band-aid, albeit a usually pretty effective one, where the liquid sealant is spread over the leak and I believe it's moisture activated and cross-links to form a solid polymer sealant. It's been used for years, but if you don't cover all the leak, then it doesn't work.

Now, if you have an exterior 'head-based' coolant leak with no leakage into the oil, no leakage into the combustion chamber, and your compression is good.... then something is very strange. That just doesn't really happen, unless you've got a crack in your head/block somewhere at the interface, and that would be a strange, strange failure. I mean, there is so much pressure in the combustion chamber, and there is a good amount of pressure in your cooling system when it's hot, that if there was a weak spot in the gasket, it would be sharing fluids across all chambers. Just an external leak is bizarre. Now if it is a crack in the head, then no amount of machining is going to fix that.

I still go back and question how the mechanic can pinpoint an external coolant leak on the head of a full assembled and in-the-vehicle engine. The interface of the head and block is a long planar contact, and due to the propagation properties of water due to it's surface tension characteristics, it's going to 'wick' down the groove interface before it fully starts to drip down (unless it's at a low point already or your leak is excessive enough the coolant isn't seeping out, but rather flowing out).

Did your mechanic say which head it was? Towards the front of the car, or to the firewall? If it's toward the firewall, I would be really curious how he can track down a leak back in that tight space. And if he thinks it's the head gasket, how is he going to ensure he got the leak with the form-a-gasket? Is he planning on sealing the entire perimeter of the head? He's going to have to take off a lot of peripheral equipment to get a clean run at the head... and then that 'fix' might not even get the leak.

I also remember you noting that your leaking oil and it's smoking off the exhaust manifold. That's a potential fire hazard, but then at this point maybe the leaking coolant will quench any fire risk :) .

I would say at this point you've got some unknown stuff going on in your engine, and if your head ends up being cracked when they pull the engine apart, your repair 'estimate' is going to increase quickly. I just have that gut feeling that cracking open your engine is going to be a can of worms... I just don't know if you are going to like what they find in there. To top it all off, when you machine your head, as your mechanic is suggesting, it is usually because it's warped a bit, and that's never a good starting point to work from when rebuilding an engine. To top it all off, machining the head means taking off a set amount from the mounting surface where it connects with the block. If you don't account for the amount of material machined away with a thicker head gasket, you could have fit-up problems meaning the entire engine assembly doesn't quite match up with the change in tolerances. I don't know what that does to your valve timing or other interfaces, but from past experience, even something a 'crude' as a Chevy small block V8 doesn't like to go together well once heads or the block has been machined down. The Lexus engine is much more precise, and I'm willing to bet fit up would be even more sensitive.

So, that leaves you with your two options... go for the Town Car and take on a new-to-you vehicle and start working out what ever gremlins it has (for we all know used cars have some sort of gremlins to deal with), or go for the replacement engine. Lexucan and George Jetson are a couple guys who know their stuff and aren't going to steer you wrong. As George Jetson noted, emissions standards in Japan are strict and they mandate engine replacements at certain levels... we tried to get a variant Japanese engine for a race team I was on several years ago, but the one we wanted we couldn't find an importer for, but they did have the complete engine pulled and replaced due to emissions laws, but the pulled engine was super clean and in perfect condition. If you read Tiger's FAQ section on their site, they state they actually are there when they pull the engines in Japan and know what mileage is on the engine when it comes out. They've been around for quite some time with excellent reviews, so that's a good indication of being reputable.

All in all, if I were to give you my 2c's on which way to go, I would stick with your ES that you know, replace the engine with a Tiger engine (and your mechanic should be able to handle all the interfacing, dealing, shipping, etc. with Tiger), and that way you'll have a vehicle you know to be solid, that will fix your oil leak, it will fix your coolant leak, it will increase your resale, it will give you a limited warranty for a while, and best of all you'll be back on the road nearly trouble free. ...and the beauty of the whole engine swap thing? You get newer injectors, newer water pump, newer power steering, newer alternator, newer sensor, newer exhaust manifolds, intake butterfly assembly.... all those wonderful things that age and fatigue and gum-up over time with higher mileage engines. You'll get all those with under 60K for less than the price of the head gasket repair... and that choice trumps the Town Car option in my opinion.

[Lexucan]

^^ I concur whole-heartedly!

[Anovice]

Good morning guys,

blk_on_blk, I will try to address you comments and answer the questions the best I can.

The oil leak(s) I have are long persisting. Of course, it get worse over time, but I have learned to live with that...put cardboard down and add a quart about every two months. The smoke only come from under the hood. I especially notice it when I get off the highway and I think that's because there is no airflow. I can see the smoke burning off the rear of the engine, somewhere below the PCV (I think that's the name of the changeable valve). But my point is, two seperate problems, but there is clearly no purpose in spending good money to fix one problem only to have the oil leak(s) still there.

The mechanic dropped the exhaust manafold and tried to show me with a mirror where the headgasket was leaking and did so when he was pressure testing it. I really could not see, but everytime he pumped air into the radiator, he kept say "see, see, see". So it was in the front. I first noticed the problem by see a 'stream' of liquid coming from under the car. When I looked under, it was "flowing" from the lowest point. It looked like I had a hole in my oil pan. And, it was not a drip, drip, drip, but rather a continous flow. Like when you turn your sink water on and get just past the point of drips.

Now here is where it gets more interesting. After picking up the car yesterday, I went to Pep-Boys and picked up a stop leak product. I think it was Bars, but definately in a pellet form. Six per package, 3 per gallon of liquid and each pellet was tan in color and bigger than a nickle and smaller than a quarter. I crushed them up as they were a bit too big to put in whole and the instructions were to run the car for 15 minutes. I did that yesterday and thus far the leak has stopped. Now, I am not optimistic the problem is solved, but the leak has stopped for the moment.

Moving forward, I think we all agree it makes little sense to replace the head gasket on this car. The machanic did say to me yesterday that we could try to stop leak product he was talking about. The process definately entails a number of steps of draining and refilling the radiator. And, it will take some hours. However, whatever this stuff is, based on the process, it is some liquid that is put in through the radiator. He said the manufacturer (I am wondering if it was the distributor) said he would refund the cost of the product if it did not solve the problem. The cost of the polymer product is $120 and the labor is $180. So, if it works, I pay $300 and if not, $180. But, this is getting a bit crazy. Yesterday it cost me $120 for 2 hours of labor and if I do this, it's another $300 for a total of $420. And for that, it seems like I only bought some time, which maybe I already have with the pellets I put in yesterday.

Anyhow, I wanted to update you. I will be using the car today and I will re-post tomorrow or Monday. All in all however, I think I need to start looking toward a long term solution which is either the new engine from Tiger (I guess that's the place you guys think is best) or "The Shark".

I am real interested in hearing some thoughts as to what the pellets did to stop the leak, at least from yesterday to today.

Anovice

[blk_on_blk]

That stuff you put in is kind of like 'Fix-a-Flat'. It'll make the inside of your cooling system a gummy mess to clean out, but your engine already has so many little issues that I would be doing the same thing you are right now, which is try every band-aid out there to give me a few more miles out of it before I had to do the inevitable, which is a major overhaul. For this situation, the pellets aren't a bad option. It sounds like the mechanic wants to try a more industrial version of what you bought at Pep Boys (and it sounds like it's a different material than what I thought it was; the Permatex stuff is externally applied), but if the Pep Boys stuff works, get the most out of it that you can.

The stop-leak stuff you used is like a 'glue'. You break up the tablets and dissolve them in your cooling system. It leaves your whole cooling system a flowing glue, and as soon as it seeps out somewhere, it dries and seals at that leak. It keeps flowing internally because it's solvated in the water/glycol. The nice thing about that stuff is that if the seal ruptures again, then the new 'glue' flows out and seals it up again.

Yeah, you can see how trying to chase down issues on an older engine can quickly get costly... nickel-n-dime you until your bank account is empty. Sometimes it's better to take that big bite and get the whole thing replaced so you don't have to mess with it any more.

Again, it sounds like you've found a decent temporary fix. I would drive it as is for a while until you are ready to make a decision regarding the engine or the Shark.

[Anovice]

Thanks again for all the help :-)

I figured that anything that could POSSIBLY stop a leak could not be good for the other components, but I also figured there was nothing to loose. If it holds for a while, hopefully it will not gum up my heater core. It's getting cold!

I did drive the 1995 Lincoln yesterday (The Shark). It has 105,000 original miles and a new engine, suspension and tires with only a few thousand. The interior and exterior are in outstanding condition. Truely a car driven by an "old lady". The blue book on it is about $2,500 and I think I could get it for $2,000. I don't like the idea that it eats gas, but based on 4,000 miles per year, that's not a great big deal.

I need to weigh this against the car I have emotional connections to, or shall I say connections I need to seperate myself from. It seems clear that if I am going to keep my 1992 ES 300 I will need to buy the new engine online. It looks like with shipping that will be in the area of $700-$800 and probably the same for installation. So yes, for about $1,500 I have a new engine, but the rest of the car has 145,000 miles. And again, no dashboard lights, no radio, an ABS problem (probably the sensor), leather seats that require seat covers in the front and who know what else. Based on blue book, if I sell, it looks like I might be able to get $1,500-$2,000.

I sometimes think that time kills a car as much as mileage. All the proper maintenance was done on my car and it was never driven hard. However, the first six years of its life were spent in south Florida and I can't help but to think that the hot temperatures affected the seals.

Anyhow, if you have any last words of wisdom, I certainly would appreciate hearing them. I will use my car and with a little luck the leak will hold. If the leak holds for any lenght of time and the shark is sold, then I will be left with the option of buying a new engine for my ES300. If I get to that point, please be ready to give me some more of your good advice ;-)

[blk_on_blk]

It sounds like you've thought this through well and know your options/situation. It'll end up being a personal call on what works best for you. If your ES is truly on its way out as a whole, then it's probably not a smart move to put any money into it. As a rule of thumb, a fully functioning/running car, no matter the year/make/model, is roughly worth $1000-$1500. If putting $1500 into it brings you up to being able to sell it for $2000K at best, then it's probably not the best move. It may be wise to sell it running as-is and move on to something else... maybe the 'shark', or some other deal may come your way. Either way, it sounds like you've got a good gasp of what your options are and how they translate financially.

BTW, if it were my call, I would sell the ES as is, for it sounds like it's a ticking time bomb, but a decent running car at the moment. If it were in great condition except for the engine issue, I would hang on to it if I were you, but it sounds like it might be ready to donate itself and it's parts to help others keep their early model ES's up and running. The Town Car sounds like it's in better condition overall and a good price... if you don't mind driving it and you have two parking spots to moor the thing, then it sounds like a decent option. You probably aren't going to get many other better options for ~$2000.

[DUBBCEE]

I also remember you noting that your leaking oil and it's smoking off the exhaust manifold. That's a potential fire hazard, but then at this point maybe the leaking coolant will quench any fire risk

LOL