About To Buy A Hybrid Suv

[LauraW]

I'm shopping for a hybrid SUV, and right now I'm strongly leaning toward the RX400h. So far I've test-driven a Highlander hybrid (nice but huge), the 400h (even nicer and a more reasonable size), and the Escape hybrid (decent, but feels cheap and plasticy, maybe because I drove it after the Lexus).

I've read through the last couple months' worth of posts here and I've still got a few questions for you 400h owners out there...

• How usable is the nav system? It doesn't look like the UI is as nice as on the aftermarket Garmin units, but is it usable? A bit of poking around during a test drive didn't really answer this one very well. (I'll end up buying one of the lock picks, so I'm not worried about not being able to enter destinations while driving.)
  
• Has anyone done an a/b comparison of the sound of the standard audio package vs. the Mark Levinson one? The differences seem to be the CD changer (which I don't really care about because of my iPod) and the external amp plus extra speakers. Do the ML speakers sound significantly better than the standard ones?
  
• Is there a good approach to iPod integration? My main criterion here is a good user interface -- ideally as good as the iPod itself -- because I've been burned before. I bought an Alpine head unit for my current 4Runner a couple of years ago, and Alpine supposedly had the best iPod integration on the market, but its user interface basically stinks. I have a huge number of albums and songs on my iPod, and finding them via the Alpine interface is very frustrating. Do any of the aftermarket iPod interfaces for the 400h do a decent job of letting you browse through the artists, albums and songs when you have a large collection of them? Or am I better off just plugging in to the AUX jack provided by some of the lockpicks and controlling the iPod directly?
  
• I've seen a few threads on the lockpicks, but I haven't seen a definitive answer on which versions work with the '08 400h with and without the ML audio upgrade. Does anyone have the real info here?
  
• It looks like the dealers here in the Bay Area have almost all high-end models with the Nav and Premium Plus packages; the only real choice is whether you get the ML audio or not. A few of the items in the Premium Plus package seem a bit gimmicky and failure-prone to me, especially the Adaptive Front Lighting. What has everyone's experience with that been? Is it actually useful? Has anyone had it die on them? (Adding a motor to something as critical as headlights offends my "keep it simple, stupid" engineering sensibilities.)
  

Thanks for reading this far. If you have any other advice on purchasing a 400h, what to look out for, which dealers in the Bay Area (or salespeople at those dealers) to talk to, what accessories are must-haves, please respond and let me know.

Finally, I have an off-the-wall question: is anyone aware of plug-in conversion kits for hybrids other than the Prius and the Escape? If one of these were available for the Highlander or 400h it would probably clinch my decision either way. I have a short commute and the ability to plug in at work, so this would make my commute almost gas-free. But so far I haven't been able to dig up even rumors on this, even at work where there are people involved in rechargeit.org.

Thanks!

-- Laura

[LauraW]

Oh, and one more question I forgot: which tires should I get? The consensus seems to be that the Goodyears on most models from the factory are decent tires but kind of noisy, while the Michelins that some dealers have are quieter but prone to hydroplaning. Is that accurate?

Thanks!

[mrc88dal]

I'll speak to the tire question. I believe most here would say "definitely" opt for the Michelins over the OEM Goodyears. The Michelins will last longer and are quieter. My 400h came with the Michelins and I was reasonably happy with them except while driving in heavy rain. They easily hydroplane in my opinion. I likely could have gotten 30-35K out of them but elected to replace them at @25K with Bridgestone Alenzas which many of us have installed on our 400hs. I find the Alenzas to be quiet and their performance in wet/dry conditions superior to the Michelins. Maybe the dealer will let you put an alternative tire on your new car. Everything's negotiable. Best of luck and enjoy your new 400h!

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Welcome!

I'd 2nd the Michelins opinion, that they're hands down over the OEM Goodyears ... which some find ok ... but more often than not ~ folks find they simply wore out way too quick. As for NAV & sterio, those are more personal. Some find aftermarket NAV's more functional, but comparing it to our Garmin, it does everything it needs to, for us. Lexus hasn't been definative whether a new style w/ new goodies will be available of the '09 model year ... but it's all the rumor ... and if it DOES have SKS (versus the 75 year old technology - mechanicle ignition key) man I'd get that in a heartbeat.

[jrober]

I purchased a Rx 400h over a HiHy earlier this year. I liked the body style better and smaller size. The seats are very comfortable for me. The fit and finish is significantly better in the Rx. The warranty is better (this could prove to be a huge benefit). It is a quieter vehicle (big plus). The NAV system is all I need. The headlights are great. Don't take Goodyear tires (I negotiated for Michelins). There was virtually no negotiating on the HiHy but I got about $4k off list on the Rx. I just had the feeling that the Lexus would be a more dependable car in the long run (this was my primary concern). So far I am very satisfied. I can quite easily keep my mileage above 30 mpg with the majority of my driving (mostly city) and at least 27 mpg on the freeways. You have to earn good mileage though with good driving habits.

I am an audiophile and I have a $20k sound system with an acoustically corrected sound studio in my home. I didn't think the ML system was worth the extra money though in the Rx. There is a limit to how good music can sound in a car. The dealer would have dealt a little more though if I would have chosen the ML vehicles. Wasn't worth it to me. The only options are really the ML system and lasar cruise control and there were far more cars (including more color options) at the dealerships around here if you didn't want either of those. A towing package and hitch are good for resale even if you don't need them (this thing tows my boat great).

Just an observation. Most of your questions are about the gadgets. It always seems odd to me that there are more questions and concerns here about Ipod connectors and GPS systems than there are about engines and transmissions. I love gadgets and own far too many of them but I would never choose a car based on these things. In my opinion, a good warranty, etc. is far more important. Good luck. You probably can't go wrong with either car.

[LauraW]

Just an observation. Most of your questions are about the gadgets. It always seems odd to me that there are more questions and concerns here about Ipod connectors and GPS systems than there are about engines and transmissions. I love gadgets and own far too many of them but I would never choose a car based on these things. In my opinion, a good warranty, etc. is far more important. Good luck. You probably can't go wrong with either car.

Good observation. There are several reasons for that, I think. One is that I'm an engineer (ok, a geek). Gadgets are fun! But a Lexus is a rather expensive iPod accessory. More importantly, after owning a Toyota for the last 9 years, I trust them to get the basic stuff like engines right on the Highlander and Lexus. (Ford, I'm not sure I'd trust so much.) And I know enough people at work with Priuses that I think Toyota is the reigning expert on Hybrid systems. (I work at Google, and there are Priuses everywhere on campus.) Also, I don't really know that much about the mechanics of modern cars and engines, so I just don't have the background to ask engine geek questions. I'm just taking it for granted that Lexus (and to a lesser extent Toyota) have great reliability and warranties, based on my own experience and reviews in various magazines like Consumer Reports. (And warranty info is pretty easy to find on the net and at the dealer.) But the little things like gadgets are harder to get info on and harder to really get a feel for during a test drive. And finally, I've found that on long trips (maybe 1/3 of my driving) the little stuff like noise levels, iPod hookups, etc. make a huge difference in how much I enjoy a car. I've enjoyed my old 4Runner a lot more since I got the Alpine stereo with its iPod hookup, crappy as it is.

Thanks for the answers! Keep 'em coming.

-- Laura

[wwest]

I'm shopping for a hybrid SUV, and right now I'm strongly leaning toward the RX400h. So far I've test-driven a Highlander hybrid (nice but huge),

For those that need the huge, (third row seats) that at least partially justifies 400HP (equivalence).

the 400h (even nicer and a more reasonable size), and the Escape hybrid (decent, but feels cheap and plasticy, maybe because I drove it after the Lexus).

I've read through the last couple months' worth of posts here and I've still got a few questions for you 400h owners out there...

• How usable is the nav system? It doesn't look like the UI is as nice as on the aftermarket Garmin units, but is it usable? A bit of poking around during a test drive didn't really answer this one very well. (I'll end up buying one of the lock picks, so I'm not worried about not being able to enter destinations while driving.)
  There is simply NO "captive" GPS/Nav system that can outshine the portable ones, say the Garmin Nuvi series. If you need to provide input while underway you can have your passenegr do so. Updates/downloads are provided via the internet and relatively inexpensively, no lining of the dealers pockets required.
  
• Has anyone done an a/b comparison of the sound of the standard audio package vs. the Mark Levinson one? The differences seem to be the CD changer (which I don't really care about because of my iPod) and the external amp plus extra speakers. Do the ML speakers sound significantly better than the standard ones?
  There is no reason to compare, except parked deep in a sub-basement QUIET parking area with the engine off and windows rolled up tightly. Ambient cabin noise in even the BEST cars insulated for sound is in the range of 60-70db. Not that I don't enjoy great, GREAT sounds, the MODERN MOSFET/DC-DC upconverter aftermarket system in my 1978 911 Targa works perfectly well at 100MPH even (especially..??) with the top removed.
  
• Is there a good approach to iPod integration? My main criterion here is a good user interface -- ideally as good as the iPod itself -- because I've been burned before. I bought an Alpine head unit for my current 4Runner a couple of years ago, and Alpine supposedly had the best iPod integration on the market, but its user interface basically stinks. I have a huge number of albums and songs on my iPod, and finding them via the Alpine interface is very frustrating. Do any of the aftermarket iPod interfaces for the 400h do a decent job of letting you browse through the artists, albums and songs when you have a large collection of them? Or am I better off just plugging in to the AUX jack provided by some of the lockpicks and controlling the iPod directly?
  Are you sure you're shopping for a car...???
  
• I've seen a few threads on the lockpicks, but I haven't seen a definitive answer on which versions work with the '08 400h with and without the ML audio upgrade. Does anyone have the real info here?
  Since I bought the Nuvi I simply keep the RX's nav CD door open all the time, to avoid the "I agree" and the potential for distraction via the moving map display. But back when I was using the RX's GPS/Nav I always kept the display turned off after "set-up" and relied only on the voice prompting. I felt that the last thing I needed was to come up to an intersection, decision point, be somewhat undecisive, and be tempted to look over at the display for additional guidance/DISTRACTION. I deemed it much better, SAFER, to simply "commit" and then pull over and check for correctness, or not, of my chosen "commit" path. Or else wait for the "nice lady" to tell me of my idiocy.
  
• It looks like the dealers here in the Bay Area have almost all high-end models with the Nav and Premium Plus packages;
  No kidding....BIG surprise, no $5,000 to $20,000 "market value" markups...??
  the only real choice is whether you get the ML audio or not. A few of the items in the Premium Plus package seem a bit gimmicky and failure-prone to me, especially the Adaptive Front Lighting. What has everyone's experience with that been? Is it actually useful? Has anyone had it die on them? (Adding a motor to something as critical as headlights offends my "keep it simple, stupid" engineering sensibilities.)
  While the AFL seems useless to me (what about as you exit the turn..??) I'm somewhat offended that you raise the issue, question, of reliability when considering a Lexus. "Motorized" headlights have been with us since the regulatory "self-leveling" feature at the introduction of HID headlights late in the last century. Then the "motor" for "bi-xenon" was added early in this century. Like the simplistic bi-xenon "motor"(solenoid...) the AFL motor is likely of the "bang-bang" servo type, no feedback required.
  

Thanks for reading this far. If you have any other advice on purchasing a 400h, what to look out for, which dealers in the Bay Area (or salespeople at those dealers) to talk to, what accessories are must-haves, please respond and let me know.

Finally, I have an off-the-wall question: is anyone aware of plug-in conversion kits for hybrids other than the Prius and the Escape? If one of these were available for the Highlander or 400h it would probably clinch my decision either way. I have a short commute and the ability to plug in at work, so this would make my commute almost gas-free. But so far I haven't been able to dig up even rumors on this, even at work where there are people involved in rechargeit.org.

Thanks!

-- Laura

Laura,

Just for pure FE you should seriously consider the Prius.

Assuming you are intent on buying an UPSCALE SUV primarily for FE I would look first and seriously at the Mercury Mariner hybrid. The RX400h and HH were designed from the get-go to appeal primarily to the "boy-racer", 0-60 crowd, PERFORMANCE considerations above FE.

Were I in the market for a hybrid SUV, currently the Mercury, even without VSC, would be my first and ONLY choice.

And I suspect the Mercury could easily be converted to CNG, and you can now "home-brew" CNG via "PHILL". No state/federal/roadway use fuel taxes.

Plug-in hybrids are a NON-STARTER. Not only is the power distribution grid already maxed out, but until we begin converting to nuclear power generation the US power generation capacity will also remain maxed out. Did you know that many power companies are using surplus night time power generation capability to pump water UPHILL to use the next day for "make-up" power generation.

Yes, we have a surplus of coal, but burning coal to supply power to you wall socket is only ~40% efficient at best, and will continue to destroy our living environment. Coal can be gasified and piped as NG.

I'm really hoping to see a Lexus HSD version of the RAV4 with a smallish I4 or even smaller I4 Miller cycle engine before "my" VSC equipped Mercury Mariner arrives. But at least with the Mercury I could easily convert it from F/AWD to a much more safe RWD.

And remember that the major advantage of a Toyota/Lexus HSD is in stop and go, city, driving wherein you can recover kinetic energy that would otherwise be lost. On the hwy the HSD may not do as well as a standard vehicle.

[RX400h]

...comparing a Mercury to a Lexus??? C'mon Doubleya, that's ludicrous! The RX would almost definitely be far more reliable over the years. We've got almost 3.2 years and 33,000 miles on our 06 RX400h and it has been flawless. Our Nissan Quest, which is identical to the Mercury Villager, was far less reliable, costing us many thousands in repairs over its 10-year life in our hands.

[katzjamr]

wwest usually i am enlightened by and always appreciate your posts, however advising anyone who could afford the 400h to buy the older hybrid technology of the Ford products doesnt make sense to me. (im not anti Ford, we drive their econoline vans) I do agree dollar for dollar the Prius is a better value, a proven car and is where fuel economy should be. I needed the larger vehicle for work and frankly i wish the prius was more attractive.

[firewire]

Safety too....compare the Lexus to the Mercury in crash ratings and standard safety features. Can't put a price on that if you ask me.

Seems like the Mercury had a 3 star driver (rest was 5 star) and the Lexus has 5 star all the way.

[wwest]

wwest usually i am enlightened by and always appreciate your posts, however advising anyone who could afford the 400h to buy the older hybrid technology of the Ford products

I realize that these days in the technology sense "older" can be only a matter of months, or even weeks for the likes of Intel and AMD, but calling the hybrid system in the Ford or Mercury seems to stetch things a bit since the HSD in those is the same as in my 2003 Prius, even a little more advanced in a few instances.

doesnt make sense to me. (im not anti Ford, we drive their econoline vans) I do agree dollar for dollar the Prius is a better value, a proven car and is where fuel economy should be. I needed the larger vehicle for work and frankly i wish the prius was more attractive.

Admittedly, the Mercury Mariner is not, can NEVER be, upscale as in the Lexus "class" nor likely as relaible.

But...BIG but...

Rather than encumbering the FEH/MMH with the horribly wasteful V6, touting the equivalent of 400 HP as does the Lexus and HH, the FEH/MMHt gets along "just find thank you", with a small (2.3L..??) I4 Atkinson Cycle engine. Also, if you need/want AWD the FEH/MMH does that with only ONE HSD electric drive "set".

Now, just what, which "geeky" components can be had on the RX400h that cannot be purchased as add-ons, possibly of better quality, more relaibility and certainly less expensive than the Lexus factory supplied ones.

Hint: My 2001 Ford E350 based Four Winds MH has grey leather '97 ES300 heated seats with full memory positioning and an aftermarket sound system that I would put up against your ML system any time.

And if Lexus is so great, and it is, just why has it now taken them more than ten, that's TEN, years to solve the transaxle problem..?? The very same problem that the new Ford Edge addresses very adequately. And why are they continuing to lie, blatently and explicitly LIE, about the RX350 having the same AWD capability as the RX300..??

And I suppose I shouldn't bring up the issue of the horrible automatic climate control design of ALL Lexus and Toyota vehicles. It may well be that the FEH/MMH now uses Denso US as the climate control design/supplier. So the FEH/MMH mightl have the same propensity to suddenly and unexpectedly fog over the interior surface of the windshield as the Lexus products have had going all the way back to the beginning...

[RX400h]

wwest usually i am enlightened by and always appreciate your posts, however advising anyone who could afford the 400h to buy the older hybrid technology of the Ford products

I realize that these days in the technology sense "older" can be only a matter of months, or even weeks for the likes of Intel and AMD, but calling the hybrid system in the Ford or Mercury seems to stetch things a bit since the HSD in those is the same as in my 2003 Prius, even a little more advanced in a few instances.

doesnt make sense to me. (im not anti Ford, we drive their econoline vans) I do agree dollar for dollar the Prius is a better value, a proven car and is where fuel economy should be. I needed the larger vehicle for work and frankly i wish the prius was more attractive.

Admittedly, the Mercury Mariner is not, can NEVER be, upscale as in the Lexus "class" nor likely as relaible.

But...BIG but...

Rather than encumbering the FEH/MMH with the horribly wasteful V6, touting the equivalent of 400 HP as does the Lexus and HH, the FEH/MMHt gets along "just find thank you", with a small (2.3L..??) I4 Atkinson Cycle engine. Also, if you need/want AWD the FEH/MMH does that with only ONE HSD electric drive "set".

Now, just what, which "geeky" components can be had on the RX400h that cannot be purchased as add-ons, possibly of better quality, more relaibility and certainly less expensive than the Lexus factory supplied ones.

Hint: My 2001 Ford E350 based Four Winds MH has grey leather '97 ES300 heated seats with full memory positioning and an aftermarket sound system that I would put up against your ML system any time.

Ha, I'll put my factory ML system up against your factory Ford land barge stereo, any day!

And if Lexus is so great, and it is, just why has it now taken them more than ten, that's TEN, years to solve the transaxle problem..?? The very same problem that the new Ford Edge addresses very adequately. And why are they continuing to lie, blatently and explicitly LIE, about the RX350 having the same AWD capability as the RX300..??

The fact remains that Lexus vehicles are far more reliable than Ford vehicles - THAT you cannot deny!

And I suppose I shouldn't bring up the issue of the horrible automatic climate control design of ALL Lexus and Toyota vehicles. It may well be that the FEH/MMH now uses Denso US as the climate control design/supplier. So the FEH/MMH mightl have the same propensity to suddenly and unexpectedly fog over the interior surface of the windshield as the Lexus products have had going all the way back to the beginning...

...not a significant issue with Lexus!

[wwest]

"The fact remains that Lexus vehicles are far more reliable than Ford vehicles -- THAT you cannot deny!"

"More" reliable, yes, I agree.

"FAR" more reliable....hmmm...no so sure.

I have a 1993 Ford Ranger PU, 2.3l I4, stick shift, with over 140,000 miles. Other than regular maintainance issues I have had to clean the idle air bypass at least twice to get it to pass emissions. My 1994 AWD Aerostar now has over 135,000 miles and I had to adjust the transmission bands at about 125,000 miles. My 2001 Four Winds category C motorhome is on a Ford E350 chasis and only has about 90,000 miles, but with no problems of Ford origin.

So I guess in the end I wind up being a champion of both, Lexus and Ford.

in 1992 I would have said different.

"..Not a significant issue with Lexus! "

Insofar as sudden/surprising instances of windshield fogging and prevention thereof Lexus is the worse of the worse.

Of the half dozen or so suggestions for fixing these systems I made back in ~'93 they have up to now now implemented about half.

Passionate Pursuit of Perfection

More (fixes, climate control) to come, you can be sure, certain.

[jrober]

It is best to stop feeding the troll. I seriously doubt that Laura came to the Lexus forum to hear about those fabuluous Ford and Mercury cars.

[Jim Clark]

We really like our '08 400h. A loaded Highlander Hybrid is only a few $K less and not as luxurious.

Virtually ALL 400h's come loaded, Lexus buyers want that. When you go to re-sell it, the buyer will want a loaded one.

The nav system is OK. You shouldn't be entering addresses on the go (unless it's the passenger), it's dangerous.

I seriously doubt the ML sound system is worth the price, the standard system sounds fine to us, we are not "audiophiles".

We have the Michelins, from what I've heard they are the best, lots of complaints about the Goodyears.

If you want an upscale SUV hybrid, there is really no competition for the Lexus.

[wwest]

It is best to stop feeding the troll. I seriously doubt that Laura came to the Lexus forum to hear about those fabuluous Ford and Mercury cars.

No one used "fabulous" to describe a Ford or Mercury car.

And if you re-read and make just a tad more effort to comprehend Laura's opening post she was clearly asking for advice regarding the Lexus vs the Ford.

And I remain of the opinion that the Mercury Mariner hybrid should be given serious consideration.

Unless there is a Lexus hybrid version of the RAV4 when I next go car shopping the Mercury will likely top my list.

[vinovelo]

I've owned a 08 400h for near 6 months now and am also in the Bay Area. So far the vehicle has been flawless.

I'm not sure which dealerships you may have talked with but I can highly recommend Magnessens in Fremont.

I got my best low/no pressure deal there. See George Neal.

Here are a few of my observations.

- Fuel efficiency. Certianly the wrong reason to buy this car but everyine that does get one focuses on

how well (or not) it does. I notice that with very careful driving I can get about 27+ in it. Stop & go

is bad for any vehicle but slow rolls (think highway 880, etc) it can do quite well if you are gentle on

it to keep the ICE from engaging. I notice that it has the tendency to flatten out large hills. I routinely

drive over highway 17 to Aptos and 92 to Half Moon Bay. I end up with the same average MPG

after the climb. Sometimes better. Wednesday after climbing 92 it registered 29.2 MPG (the

computer seems to be about 1 mpg higher than actual calculations). If you are heavy footed you

are probably going to get about 22. After two tripe to downtown Fremont (5 miles) it was back

down to a horrile 27.5 MPG. Drat.

- Drivetrain. The other reason to own one for traffic is the CVT transmission. No hunting for gears

in slow stop & go traffic. No more shift points. The transmission is always geared for the highest

efficency needed at any moment. It has a very calming effect (at least on me). It just glides

along.

- Ride. Some find the ride too soft. I find I like it very much. A good balance. But I do not normally

drive agressively. On mountain roads it feels fairly sure footed. I have the Michelin tires.

- Power. Unbelievable power. At any speed. Instant torque at any time. Want to pass a semi going

up a steep hill? No problem at all. Yeah, your fuel will suffer but... Under full acceleration it is a

bit noisy and rough sounding but how much are you doing that anyway? Under normal driving

conditions it is very quiet. If anything I wish that a slightly smaller engine were used for better

FE but Lexus goes the performance route.

- Fit and finish inside and out is industry standard setting.

For the less important stuff:

- NAVI. Not as good as my 7 year old Acura. But sufficient. I have had no real problems with it and use it

frequently.

- Headlights. Once aimed properly the automatic headlights are GREAT. I can't tell you how nice it is comming

down highway 17 in the dark at midnight. They just turn where you are thinking (OK, well, turning).

- Stereo. It's pretty good. Not as good as the Bose system in my 7 year old Acura TL but OK. I would not

spend the extra on an ML system upgrade.

This is a great vehicle for anything from trips to Costco or the local garden nursery or long road trips.

For me I find the styling elegant. Unlike the majority of SUV vehicles on the market.

There are hundreds of details to critique. I plan to do a one year critique. There will be some features

that will be rated low but overall I would buy it again.

/Steve

Newark, CA

[RX400h]

...and the Escape hybrid (decent, but feels cheap and plasticy, maybe because I drove it after the Lexus).

This is the key statement that suggests Ford products are out of the loop. Yes, the Mariner may have more options than the Escape, but it can't compare to the RX400h.

WWest, you certainly have no problem bashing a vehicle with which you have no direct day-to-day experience. Theoretical criticism will get you only so far before it becomes very annoying to people who actually own a hybrid Lexus. As an old tool&die maker used to tell me, "Quit yer belly-achin!"

In other news, there is a vehicle called the XH-150 that is made by a company called AFS Trinity. According to this company, the XH-150 gets 150 mpg and can travel 40 miles on battery power alone.

Currently, AFS is taking its "extreme hybrid" on tour in an 18-wheeler.

Who knows how reliable this vehicle is? I certainly wouldn't buy one until I see some actual long-term test results.

Dave

[LauraW]

I pulled the trigger and bought a 400h today, at Stevens Creek Lexus in Santa Clara (or maybe San Jose; I'm not sure). It's the fully loaded version (which is all the dealers seem to stock, unsurprisingly) in the Bamboo Pearl color. So far, I'm very happy with it, though I've only put about 25 miles on it in the 6 hours since I bought it.

I actually would have preferred a Breakwater Blue 400h, or maybe the Matador Red, but those seem to be very rare around here. The folks at Stevens Creek actually told me that both colors have been discontinued, which I have a hard time believing since they're the best ones. :-) But the only person locally who could promise me a blue one was the internet manager at Magnussens in Fremont, and I couldn't talk him down very far on the price. The folks at Stevens Creek gave me a fairly good deal on a Bamboo one that they had on the lot. It's sort of an off-silver color with just a hint of green in it, which I can barely see because I'm a bit color-bline. (They also had a silver one on the lot, but there are too many silver cars out there and I didn't want yet another one. :-)

Other tidbits and ramblings:

- I ended up with the ML audio package, but to be honest I can't really tell the difference between it and the standard one. It happened to be equipped on the car I wanted, and since they knew I wasn't very impressed by it they knocked off quite a bit on the price for the "upgrade" to it. After I picked it up I took an audiophile friend of mine for a ride and she sneered at the sound, but it sounds good enough to me, and it's certainly better than the sound in my old 4Runner. Given the road noise, which is much better than in other SUVs I've driven but still audible at higher speeds, I don't think it makes sense to try to get perfect sound (whatever that means) in a 400h, or probably in any car.

- I made sure the '08 400h had the "Gen 5" audio / nav system so that I can put a good iPod adapter in it. The two I'm thinking of are the Vaistech SL2i (with the new firmware) and the USA Spec PA20 TOY, which a local car audio shop recommended. The Vaistech one looks more attractive since you can browse artists and folders from the nav screen. (Has anyone played with the new firmware on one of these yet?) I'd also

love to find an HD tuner that worked in the 400h (perhaps in place of the satellite tuner) but I don't think such a thing exists.

- The dealer seems to have partially unlocked the nav system. There's no "I Agree" screen, though the first time I switch to the nav view after the car has been powered off for a while it does show me a legal disclaimer screen for a couple of seconds. I can select pre-programmed destinations while driving, but I haven't tried entering new ones while driving (which doesn't seem very safe anyway).

- The sales guy said that some 400h's seem to have problems setting up Bluetooth sync with Treo smartphones. Mine old 700p worked fine, though.

- I haven't yet figured out the right "touch" to keep the ICE from kicking in. Even when I try to accelerate very slowly, it engages pretty quickly. But I've only driven the thing for an hour or so, and it will probably take quite a while to get used to it.

- I also haven't figured out coasting / gliding yet. When I take my foot off the accelerator, the car starts to do very mild regenerative braking. From what I've read, pressing very lightly on the accelerator should put it into a mode where it's just coasting without using either the engine, motor, or brakes. I think I need a lighter touch.

- I think I got something like 26 or 27 mpg driving around town running errands this afternoon, which is impressive for a brand-new car and a driver not used to hybrids. It's way better than my old 4-runner, though as Steve said mileage isn't the primary reason for buying a car like this. (It's a good excuse, though. :-)

- I'm very impressed with the power. I'm not a very aggressive driver, but when I merged onto the freeway a couple of times it was great.

- The fit and finish is much better than anything else I looked at. The Highlander came close, but it wasn't quite as nice and didn't have as many bells and whistles. The Ford Escape and the Subaru Forester a friend of mine just bought don't come close. (Though my friend's Forester is a very nice car for its price.)

- Up above, someone trashed the idea of plug-in hybrids. I think the jury is still out on them, but in California they might make sense. Our power here is fairly green, at least compared to other states in the US. And drivers tend to recharge plug-ins at night, when there's not much stress on the power grid. But if everyone bought them, the grid might indeed collapse. I don't think they're practical on a wide scale until / unless we get serious about alternative ways of generating electricity like solar, wind, tidal, more nuclear, etc. It would be economical for me, though, because I can recharge it for free at work off of our solar-powered electrical system. Some of the folks at work who have Prius plug-ins as part of the rechargeit.org work are getting 100 mpg, though I'm not sure if anyone's done the math to see if it really has a lower environmental impact once you factor in the electricity generation, toxics in the batteries, and so on.

- So far the navigation seems adequate, but I haven't played with it much. Some of the routes it suggested were bizarre, though, like wanting me to go from Los Altos to Sunnyvale on El Camino instead of taking a short detour to get on the much faster Central Expressway. I haven't adjusted the route preferences at all yet, so hopefully there's a way to make this better.

- The salesman kept telling me that the nav system has maps for "the entire country, including Canada", which I'm posting just for the benefit of any Canadians reading these forums. :-)

Thanks for all the responses to my original post!

-- Laura :D

[Jim Clark]

Congrats Laura. You'll love the car.

The Nav does have route preferences. It should also give you 3 route choices, at least one of those should be mostly highway. Our Nav also doesn't have the I Agree screen, just the warning screen when you first turn it on.

The ICE always starts when starting from a stop unless you're in a parking lot going very slow and it's pretty much always on unless you're coasting or braking. I wouldn't sweat trying to eek out every last mpg. Normal light-footed driving should get you 27 mpg. Extreme measures will not improve that much.

We have found the 400h to be VERY quiet even at highway speeds, the only exception is under heavy acceleration.

We have a 6-disc in-dash CD changer but it's not Mark Levinson, at least I'm pretty sure it's not. Does yours say Mark Levinson on the head unit? If you go to the website, Mark Levinson is no longer offered as an option. The ONLY option packages are three Nav packages, the Premium Plus is now part of the Nav Packages. The three Nav packages are essentially the same, the additional two just add some accessories.

Matador Red and Breakwater Blue are on the website. I'm afraid the salesman lied to you so you'd drive out in the Bamboo Pearl he had in his inventory. When we went to the dealer JUST to take a test drive, we saw a Matador Red one out front and immediately loved it. I had originally thought I'd like the Brandywine, but when I saw both in person, it had to be Matador Red, and we ended up driving it home. The Bamboo Pearl is also a very nice color. Please post some pics.

I didn't realize Canada was now part of the entire country. ;)

[wwest]

I pulled the trigger and bought a 400h today, at Stevens Creek Lexus in Santa Clara (or maybe San Jose; I'm not sure). It's the fully loaded version (which is all the dealers seem to stock, unsurprisingly) in the Bamboo Pearl color. So far, I'm very happy with it, though I've only put about 25 miles on it in the 6 hours since I bought it.

I actually would have preferred a Breakwater Blue 400h, or maybe the Matador Red, but those seem to be very rare around here. The folks at Stevens Creek actually told me that both colors have been discontinued, which I have a hard time believing since they're the best ones. :-) But the only person locally who could promise me a blue one was the internet manager at Magnussens in Fremont, and I couldn't talk him down very far on the price. The folks at Stevens Creek gave me a fairly good deal on a Bamboo one that they had on the lot. It's sort of an off-silver color with just a hint of green in it, which I can barely see because I'm a bit color-bline. (They also had a silver one on the lot, but there are too many silver cars out there and I didn't want yet another one. :-)

Other tidbits and ramblings:

- I ended up with the ML audio package, but to be honest I can't really tell the difference between it and the standard one. It happened to be equipped on the car I wanted, and since they knew I wasn't very impressed by it they knocked off quite a bit on the price for the "upgrade" to it. After I picked it up I took an audiophile friend of mine for a ride and she sneered at the sound,

The ML sound system is quite good, not outstanding, but...

But if you wish to impress your audiophile friend with the ML then find a nice sub-terrainian parking garage, close the windows tightly, shut off the engine and then show her, let her hear the system, the full decibel range of the system. My bet is that she will be impressed.

There is no way an automative evironment would allow one to truly appreciate the fidelity of ANY upscale, well designed and integrated, audio system such as is the ML.

but it sounds good enough to me, and it's certainly better than the sound in my old 4Runner. Given the road noise, which is much better than in other SUVs I've driven but still audible at higher speeds, I don't think it makes sense to try to get perfect sound (whatever that means) in a 400h, or probably in any car.

- I made sure the '08 400h had the "Gen 5" audio / nav system so that I can put a good iPod adapter in it. The two I'm thinking of are the Vaistech SL2i (with the new firmware) and the USA Spec PA20 TOY, which a local car audio shop recommended. The Vaistech one looks more attractive since you can browse artists and folders from the nav screen. (Has anyone played with the new firmware on one of these yet?) I'd also

love to find an HD tuner that worked in the 400h (perhaps in place of the satellite tuner) but I don't think such a thing exists.

- The dealer seems to have partially unlocked the nav system. There's no "I Agree" screen, though the first time I switch to the nav view after the car has been powered off for a while it does show me a legal disclaimer screen for a couple of seconds.

Probably a new feature.

I can select pre-programmed destinations while driving, but I haven't tried entering new ones while driving (which doesn't seem very safe anyway).

- The sales guy said that some 400h's seem to have problems setting up Bluetooth sync with Treo smartphones. Mine old 700p worked fine, though.

- I haven't yet figured out the right "touch" to keep the ICE from kicking in. Even when I try to accelerate very slowly, it engages pretty quickly. But I've only driven the thing for an hour or so, and it will probably take quite a while to get used to it.

It seems to me that the entire Lexus line, since about the turn of the century, has has an engine "surge" right at throttle "tip-in" at initial startuo, start-out.

- I also haven't figured out coasting / gliding yet. When I take my foot off the accelerator, the car starts to do very mild regenerative braking. From what I've read, pressing very lightly on the accelerator should put it into a mode where it's just coasting without using either the engine, motor, or brakes. I think I need a lighter touch.

I think, don't remember for sure, most HSD drivers develop the habit of shifting into neutral to prevent regen braking during "glide" to accommodate the "pulse" and glide technique.

- I think I got something like 26 or 27 mpg driving around town running errands this afternoon, which is impressive for a brand-new car and a driver not used to hybrids. It's way better than my old 4-runner, though as Steve said mileage isn't the primary reason for buying a car like this. (It's a good excuse, though. :-)

- I'm very impressed with the power. I'm not a very aggressive driver, but when I merged onto the freeway a couple of times it was great.

That's why the V6 was chosen above a more sensible 4 cylinder, even LARGE (relatively speaking) 4 cylinder, that could have the additional efficiency of the Atkinson cycle.[/d]

- The fit and finish is much better than anything else I looked at. The Highlander came close, but it wasn't quite as nice and didn't have as many bells and whistles. The Ford Escape and the Subaru Forester a friend of mine just bought don't come close. (Though my friend's Forester is a very nice car for its price.)

- Up above, someone trashed the idea of plug-in hybrids. I think the jury is still out on them, but in California they might make sense. Our power here is fairly green, at least compared to other states in the US. And drivers tend to recharge plug-ins at night, when there's not much stress on the power grid. But if everyone bought them, the grid might indeed collapse. I don't think they're practical on a wide scale until / unless we get serious about alternative ways of generating electricity like solar, wind, tidal, more nuclear, etc. It would be economical for me, though, because I can recharge it for free at work off of our solar-powered electrical system. Some of the folks at work who have Prius plug-ins as part of the rechargeit.org work are getting 100 mpg, though I'm not sure if anyone's done the math to see if it really has a lower environmental impact once you factor in the electricity generation, toxics in the batteries, and so on.

- So far the navigation seems adequate, but I haven't played with it much. Some of the routes it suggested were bizarre, though, like wanting me to go from Los Altos to Sunnyvale on El Camino instead of taking a short detour to get on the much faster Central Expressway. I haven't adjusted the route preferences at all yet, so hopefully there's a way to make this better.

When we purchased our '01 w/nav I was a bit frustrated that the nav didn't seem to "know" some of the routing, roads, I knew would be a shorter distance., even with two disc upgrades ($300 each, thank you) over the years. My wife gave me a portable GPS/nav two years ago for Christmas and that led me to discover that Lexus nav "knew" of the shorter distance road streets, but would simply never select them unless I was following the Garmin's SHORTEST route and then the Lexus nav would endlessly recompute and "follow" the Garmin as we drove along.

- The salesman kept telling me that the nav system has maps for "the entire country, including Canada", which I'm posting just for the benefit of any Canadians reading these forums. :-)

Thanks for all the responses to my original post!

-- Laura :D

Was it also the AWD model....??

[wwest]

...and the Escape hybrid (decent, but feels cheap and plasticy, maybe because I drove it after the Lexus).

This is the key statement that suggests Ford products are out of the loop. Yes, the Mariner may have more options than the Escape, but it can't compare to the RX400h.

"suggests..""

Hmmm...

It that like an assumption or theory of yours..??

"can't compare to the RX400h.."

In many respects I agree, but as I have tried to point out, in some respects, MAJOR respects for some of us, the RX400h doesn't compare to the Mercury Mariner, not even CLOSE. Note that I said Mercury Mariner, not the Ford Escape that "feels cheap and plasticy".

WWest, you certainly have no problem bashing a vehicle with which you have no direct day-to-day experience.

I guess I find it surprising, quite surprising, that a forum SUPER MODERATOR would think it would take direct day-to-day experience in order to become an EXPERT (at least moreso that the majority of actual owners) on a given vehicle model.

And...

BASHING..?? Oh, have I insulted your "ride".

Theoretical criticism.

Which, what,...where....?? Tell me and I go correct it, or label it as such immediately.

will get you only so far before it

becomes very annoying to people who actually own a hybrid Lexus.

Sounds like a bit of buyer remorse to me.

But.

The lady asked for our advice and both you, as an owner, and me, should be willing, fully willing, to open the book fully.

As an old tool&die maker used to tell me, "Quit yer belly-achin!"

Hey, you're the owner, I have no reason to "belly-ach", if the shoe fits.....

In other news, there is a vehicle called the XH-150 that is made by a company called AFS Trinity. According to this company, the XH-150 gets 150 mpg and can travel 40 miles on battery power alone.

Currently, AFS is taking its "extreme hybrid" on tour in an 18-wheeler.

Who knows how reliable this vehicle is? I certainly wouldn't buy one until I see some actual long-term test results.

Dave

[LauraW]

Matador Red and Breakwater Blue are on the website. I'm afraid the salesman lied to you so you'd drive out in the Bamboo Pearl he had in his inventory.

Yep, that's about what I figured, but I decided that the pretty blue color wasn't worth an extra $2,500 to me at the other dealer. And I'm not a very good negotiator, so I didn't feel like doing the "Well if you could find a blue one, how much would it be?" dance with the local dealer. It's not that big an issue, really.

But if you wish to impress your audiophile friend with the ML then find a nice sub-terrainian parking garage

You don't know my friend. It's not impressive unless she herself spent lots of money on it. Everything else "sucks". She's not quite the "spend $1,000 on a cable" sort of audiophile, but she "hears" things that nobody else I know can perceive.

That's why the V6 was chosen above a more sensible 4 cylinder, even LARGE (relatively speaking) 4 cylinder, that could have the additional efficiency of the Atkinson cycle.

I mostly agree. I wish there were a Lexus-grade hybrid SUV that was a bit more fuel efficient even at the expense of a bit of the power (maybe an upscale, hybrid Rav4). But there's not, so the 400h seemed like the best compromise given what I was looking for. I hadn't heard of the Atkinson Cycle before. The wikipedia article on it is interesting.

My wife gave me a portable GPS/nav two years ago for Christmas and that led me to discover that Lexus nav "knew" of the shorter distance road streets, but would simply never select them unless I was following the Garmin's SHORTEST route and then the Lexus nav would endlessly recompute and "follow" the Garmin as we drove along.

Yeah, I saw some of that yesterday. I drove the route I knew was fastest (central expressway from Mtn. View to Sunnyvale) and it kept suggesting that I turn right and cut over to El Camino (and all of its traffic lights) until I got almost to the street that goes by my house. It definitely knew Central and all its intersections were there. It may be that the "expressways" in Santa Clara County make the system confused. They're semi-limited-access roads that are not quite freeways but have higher speed limits and fewer traffic lights than most surface streets. If it's treating Central like a normal surface street, I can see it thinking El Camino would be faster because it cuts across diagonally. Map routing is a hard CS problem, but it's also obviously solvable by people like Garmin and Google Maps.

-- Laura

[RX400h]

Congrats, Laura! I, too, have a Bamboo Pearl color and it is probably the only color that changes noticably as ambient lighting shifts. The other huge advantage of having a light color vehicle is its incredible ability to hide dirt. Darker color vehicles show dirt much more readily and I'd rather be doing other things besides washing my cars for hours.

I was able to use a Garmin NUVI 660 for many hours, last year and I still prefer the Lexus NAV. I like the way it reminds you to stay on a particular interstate, just before a split to an alternate route is possible. The Garmin just isn't good with such instances.

[RX400h]

WWest,

You can be sure that if I, as an owner of a C5 Corvette, continuously posted in a C6 Corvette forum that a Mustang Cobra is much better than a C6 and how awful the C6 is on a racetrack (despite not having one, myself), etc, etc, I would be banned from the site for starting a flame war. Well, this situation is not much different. You were banned before for doing a similar thing (yes, I remember), so please, if you are a fan of Mercury, you might find a less irritated atmosphere in a Mercury forum. You do present some excellent technical details and we appreciate that, but going into a biker bar and insulting Harleys is not the best way to change the occupants' minds about that particular brand.

Dave