In The Market For An Suv

[skassamali]

Hi all,

In the market for an SUV. Looking at the MDX, but the mileage blows. So I took a quick look at the 400h, but there some to be some issues with the battery (scarce). My question is that is it prudent to choose the 400h strictly because it gets better gas mileage than any other V6 suv out there?

Anything else I should keep in mind when considering this vehicle?

Thanks!

[wwest]

Hi all,

In the market for an SUV. Looking at the MDX, but the mileage blows. So I took a quick look at the 400h, but there some to be some issues with the battery (scarce). My question is that is it prudent to choose the 400h strictly because it gets better gas mileage than any other V6 suv out there?

Anything else I should keep in mind when considering this vehicle?

Thanks!

My guess would be that due to your locality you do not want/need AWD. The 400h will, generally, only yeild extraordinary FE with predomantly city (NYC) stop and go driving, slow moving, traffic when it can recover kinetic (rolling) energy via regenerative braking. If the majority of your daily commute is free and easy cruisng the 400h's FE advantage will be nominal.

If you could find a way to disable the turbo except at WOT the RDX might be worth a looksee.

There are SUV's with smallish I4 engines but since you're looking at the MDX those are probably to small to consider in comparison.

"battery (scarce)."

Where did you get this idea...??

Or do you simply mean that there are not many being produced due to hybrid battery scarcity.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

I too, have no idea what you mean by battery scarcity.

The traction batteries are warranted by Lexus 'till 100,000 miles. Ever kept a car that long? Not me. Not long enough? Some states like California warrant them 'till 150,000 miles.

The new EPA mileage for 2 wheel drive is 27mpg i think. The old EPA was 30mpg. Some here get worse, but some, including me, do better. That all depends (like with any car) how hearty you brake & gun it. My wife gets worse in town because she's a lead foot. Put her on the freeway on the cruise control, & her mpg's start sneeking up towards mine. Because it's was less smoggy than a non-hybrid, in CA & some other states, no smog check is necessary. Up in MT where ours is registered they don't seem to care about smog, as even the worst smog belchers need no smog check.

Oh! and welcome to the forum!

[katzjamr]

We tend to focus on mileage and it is important however the 400h also regenerates energy during each trip and has lower emissions. There is a calmness i feel driving a hybrid that at least i am getting 50% or more better gas mileage than the last SUV i drove for six years. Just sitting at the stoplight with no engine on makes so much sense. In the many many polls in the online groups at least half of the owners were getting 25mpg or better with the 400h. (especially in the warm climate of texas) The CVT transmission is the smoothest thing you will find out there, and yes it is louder during hard acceleration, i dont find that an issue. With few exceptions the RX hybrids have been very reliable and the hybrid system is guaranteed for 100,000 miles. Many of us were on waiting lists and paid list price, now there are RX's on many lots at a discount. Make sure your 400h has the Michelins on it, do not accept the Goodyears. You will not regret your decision.

P. S. There is a good chance that oil by the barrel will go higher than even the record prices we see now. Third world countries and the Soviet Union are pumping less oil due to corruption and not enough investment in infrastructure. Add in the high cost of recovering new oil finds and the unknown reserves in the middle east and its very likely without a major breakthrough near term energy costs will only rise. We are not building new refineries in the US and most of them are operating at high capacity. The oil companies responded to the previous energy 'crisis' by adding production. This kept fuel prices steady for the ten years after Carter. Currently the oil companies would rather reap huge profits with existing levels of production, adding little more.

[RX400h]

....good points by the above members! Yes, if your daily commute involves traffic, an RX400h is unmatched by any other luxury SUV out there. The more slow-moving and stop & go driving you encounter, the bigger the advantage. We average 24-25 MPG with both steady speed and slow-moving driving. And after 3 years of ownership, we have not had one problem. Take one for a drive and let us know what you think!

Dave

[skassamali]

Sorry didn't mean the battery itself was scarce...the problems of battery dying were scarce...

Hi all,

In the market for an SUV. Looking at the MDX, but the mileage blows. So I took a quick look at the 400h, but there some to be some issues with the battery (scarce). My question is that is it prudent to choose the 400h strictly because it gets better gas mileage than any other V6 suv out there?

Anything else I should keep in mind when considering this vehicle?

Thanks!

My guess would be that due to your locality you do not want/need AWD. The 400h will, generally, only yeild extraordinary FE with predomantly city (NYC) stop and go driving, slow moving, traffic when it can recover kinetic (rolling) energy via regenerative braking. If the majority of your daily commute is free and easy cruisng the 400h's FE advantage will be nominal.

If you could find a way to disable the turbo except at WOT the RDX might be worth a looksee.

There are SUV's with smallish I4 engines but since you're looking at the MDX those are probably to small to consider in comparison.

"battery (scarce)."

Where did you get this idea...??

Or do you simply mean that there are not many being produced due to hybrid battery scarcity.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Oh! If you mean that the little 'starter' battery is subject to being drained, and then it dies, that's because some folks fail to shut a door all the way, the dome lights stay on, and the battery drains down. It has happened. The 400h (and other Toyota / Lexus hybrids) don't have a starter, so you don't have to have 100's of cranking amps as with most cars. All you need is 12v and a few watts of power to boot up the system's computers, then the high voltage system takes over. The plus side for a jump start is you only need 8 'D' batteries to jump the car! ... or simply make sure the doors are all closed.

Yes, lexus should have put in an auto off function, like the headlights do. Others have installed the Optima Yellow Top Battery, which is the same size as the OEM. We did that on our Prius, but only because the battery is almost 5 years old ... simple preventive maintenance ... plus the Optima Yellow Top is WAY cheeper than the stock battery from Toyota. So yes, that's an issue ... but overall, easily overcome-able. I'd have still bought the 400h, even if I'd have known about the tiny battery issue, and when the OEM DOES get a couple years older ... off we go to get another optima. But YES, take a test drive. Our Local dealer lets people rent them FREE for a week (charged off the top, if/when you buy) and if you try it, you'll never look back.

[mrc88dal]

Emissions and fuel economy aside, the 400 hybrid is a blast to drive compared to many other SUV's and it's sibling(RX350). Lots of torque to pull out into traffic and "Porsche Cayenne S" like acceleration. The CVT transmission is extremely smooth and I think I'd be hesitant to go back to a conventional transmission. With some good tires(many suggestions on this forum, I have Alenzas), handling is more than adequate and better than many other SUV's. Best of luck with your decision!

[Jim Clark]

Many good points.

Just make sure the doors are all closed and the battery will not be an issue.

Acceleration and ride are excellent. Some people think the ride is too soft and handling is less than optimal. We think it's fine.

Creature comforts and gadgets are great. It also has plenty of room for passengers and cargo.

The AWD system is a joke compared to many others out there. BUT, get it for the resale, the next buyer will want it.

Gas mileage is not a great reason to get the 400h. If you compare it to the RX350, based on 12,000 miles per year, $3.80 per gallon, 25 mpg for the 400 and 19.5 mpg for the 350, your savings are $513 per year. The base price difference is $3,680. That's over 7 years or 84,000 miles for payback and doesn't even consider the interest factor on the savings.

The emissions are considerably lower for the 400h than non-hybrid SUV's. In the DC area, the 400h qualifies to use HOV lanes with only the driver aboard. That's the real reason we bought it, my wive saves a lot of time in her commute.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

Many good points.

. . . . snip

Gas mileage is not a great reason to get the 400h. If you compare it to the RX350, based on 12,000 miles per year, $3.80 per gallon, 25 mpg for the 400 and 19.5 mpg for the 350, your savings are $513 per year. The base price difference is $3,680. That's over 7 years or 84,000 miles for payback and doesn't even consider the interest factor on the savings.

. . . . snip

Better recalculate Jim :D

It's aint coming back down. Near our So Cal home the average is over $4 / gallon, and next year, we'll all be lamenting, "remember when gas was only $5 a gallon?" So if you have to have a SUV, the 400h mpg's is about as good as you can get.

[Jim Clark]

Many good points.

. . . . snip

Gas mileage is not a great reason to get the 400h. If you compare it to the RX350, based on 12,000 miles per year, $3.80 per gallon, 25 mpg for the 400 and 19.5 mpg for the 350, your savings are $513 per year. The base price difference is $3,680. That's over 7 years or 84,000 miles for payback and doesn't even consider the interest factor on the savings.

. . . . snip

Better recalculate Jim :D

It's aint coming back down. Near our So Cal home the average is over $4 / gallon, and next year, we'll all be lamenting, "remember when gas was only $5 a gallon?" So if you have to have a SUV, the 400h mpg's is about as good as you can get.

Holy price gouging Batman!!!

We're still about $3.80-3.90 here for premium. At $4.50 per gallon, the savings is $608. that lowers payback to 6 years or 72,000 miles. At $5.20 for premium, the savings is $702 per year which lowers payback to a little over 5 years or 60,000 miles.

It's still a long payback.

[SOMEONE ELSE'S GOT MY NAME]

You know what I say, when folks ask me "how long for the payback"?

I ask, "how long is the payback for your Pickup" . . . or your Vet? Or your harley? or Expedition, or your Hummer or Porsche? Point being that folks don't seem to feel compeled to 'crunch numbers' for OTHER transportation (over the minimum cost of say, a little hyundai, or some equally tiny / minimum transportation) and SOME of the OTHER transportation is just dumb ... but when you talk a hybrid ... all of a sudden it has to make money for you, like fort Knox, or it's not worth it. That's what I don't get.

[wwest]

Oh! If you mean that the little 'starter' battery is subject to being drained, and then it dies, that's because some folks fail to shut a door all the way, the dome lights stay on, and the battery drains down.

One of the first things I discovered when I purchased my first Lexus, a new 1992 LS400, was taht the door ajar, dome light switch, had been moved from the hinge section of the door jam to the lock section. The result of this was that the door NOW had to be COMPLETELY closed to turn off the dome lights, interior lighting, door ajar dash icon.

"It has happened..."

Some of us, ME, had to learn this the HARD way, repetitive episodes of dead battery.

The 400h (and other Toyota / Lexus hybrids) don't have a starter, so you don't have to have 100's of cranking amps as with most cars.

Starting the ICE doesn't only involve AMPS, the full equation requires VOLTS. The bottom line is that it takes just as much electrical POWER, AMPS TIMES VOLTS, to start (and restart, and restart again, etc, etc, etc,...) a hybrid ICE as it does to start a non-hybrid.

All you need is 12v and a few watts of power to boot up the system's computers, then the high voltage system takes over. The plus side for a jump start is you only need 8 'D' batteries to jump the car! ... or simply make sure the doors are all closed.

Yes, lexus should have put in an auto off function, like the headlights do. Others have installed the Optima Yellow Top Battery, which is the same size as the OEM. We did that on our Prius, but only because the battery is almost 5 years old ... simple preventive maintenance ... plus the Optima Yellow Top is WAY cheeper than the stock battery from Toyota. So yes, that's an issue ... but overall, easily overcome-able. I'd have still bought the 400h, even if I'd have known about the tiny battery issue, and when the OEM DOES get a couple years older ... off we go to get another optima. But YES, take a test drive. Our Local dealer lets people rent them FREE for a week (charged off the top, if/when you buy) and if you try it, you'll never look back.

Before I would buy a higher capacity battery due to the need to close the doors more firmly and/or consistently I would probably add a switch at each door, the OLD way/position, to independently control the interior lighting.

[RX400h]

You know what I say, when folks ask me "how long for the payback"?

I ask, "how long is the payback for your Pickup" . . . or your Vet? Or your harley? or Expedition, or your Hummer or Porsche? Point being that folks don't seem to feel compeled to 'crunch numbers' for OTHER transportation (over the minimum cost of say, a little hyundai, or some equally tiny / minimum transportation) and SOME of the OTHER transportation is just dumb ... but when you talk a hybrid ... all of a sudden it has to make money for you, like fort Knox, or it's not worth it. That's what I don't get.

i agree. If the RX350 were EXACTLY the same in every other way, you can talk payback only, but this is not the case. The RX400h has the equivalent of 650 lbs-ft of torque at low engine speed. This and the CVT really set it apart from its gas-only brethren.

And come on, what RX350, when driven in a mixed cycle that favors lots of city driving, will average 19.5? From what I've heard from RX330 owners, 16-17 MPG is closer to the norm. If the RX350 owners have to pump premium, the fuel factor changes considerably, since we can use regular in most areas, without issue.

[wwest]

Many good points.

Just make sure the doors are all closed and the battery will not be an issue.

Acceleration and ride are excellent. Some people think the ride is too soft and handling is less than optimal. We think it's fine.

Creature comforts and gadgets are great. It also has plenty of room for passengers and cargo.

The AWD system is a joke compared to many others out there.

No, in my opinion the RX400h AWD system is second best only to the RDX SH-AWD system insofar as AWD vehicles with sideways mounted engines are concerned. Otherwise the only true, fully functional ,and safe, SAFE,, AWD systems are those that have a definite rear torque bias, say the BMW X3 or X5.

On the other hand if you were talking about the RX, HL, or Sienna AWD system as being a JOKE I would whole-heartedly agree.

BUT, get it for the resale, the next buyer will want it.

Gas mileage is not a great reason to get the 400h. If you compare it to the RX350, based on 12,000 miles per year, $3.80 per gallon, 25 mpg for the 400 and 19.5 mpg for the 350, your savings are $513 per year. The base price difference is $3,680. That's over 7 years or 84,000 miles for payback and doesn't even consider the interest factor on the savings.

The emissions are considerably lower for the 400h than non-hybrid SUV's. In the DC area, the 400h qualifies to use HOV lanes with only the driver aboard. That's the real reason we bought it, my wive saves a lot of time in her commute.

Only your future grandkids will be able to tell you if purchasing todays hybrid was a wise choice.

[Statman]

Some additional food for thought. My wife has a 400h, I just traded my GX470 for a Highlander Hybrid. I am getting 28 mpg and it is not yet broken in. Not quite the finish of a lexus, but really quite nice.

[Jim Clark]

You know what I say, when folks ask me "how long for the payback"?

I ask, "how long is the payback for your Pickup" . . . or your Vet? Or your harley? or Expedition, or your Hummer or Porsche? Point being that folks don't seem to feel compeled to 'crunch numbers' for OTHER transportation (over the minimum cost of say, a little hyundai, or some equally tiny / minimum transportation) and SOME of the OTHER transportation is just dumb ... but when you talk a hybrid ... all of a sudden it has to make money for you, like fort Knox, or it's not worth it. That's what I don't get.

That's an apples and oranges analogy. You have to compare the SAME vehicle with both non-hybrid and hybrid versions which is what I did. My simple point was that increased gas mileage is not a compelling reason to get the more expensive hybrid version. My analysis assumed premium fuel in both vehicles. We knew when we bought the 400h that we would not get a payback based on gas mileage for a very long time, if ever.

I think the only two significant reasons for the hybrid are the improved low-end torque and lower emissions. The CVT tranny is also a nice benefit. I assume the 350 can be equipped with basically the same options as the 400h. The improved gas mileage is a good thing but not reason enough by itself for the hybrid. Add up all the things I just mentioned and I think it is worth it.

[RX400h]

Does anyone know if the RX350's owner's manual states that 87 octane fuel may be used? If it doesn't that certainly accelerates payback for the Rx400h, since the cost difference between regular and premium can be substantial. 87 octane fuel is an option in the 400h.

[wwest]

Does anyone know if the RX350's owner's manual states that 87 octane fuel may be used? If it doesn't that certainly accelerates payback for the Rx400h, since the cost difference between regular and premium can be substantial. 87 octane fuel is an option in the 400h.

With the advent of EFI, Electonic Fuel Injection, there is no longer an issue of our high compression ratio engines in our cars not being able to run on regular, low octane fuel. The engine controlling ECU simply enriches the mixture in order to compensate for the use of regular fuel vs premium.

[RX400h]

I believe the RX350 engine has higher compression to attain its advertised HP, whereas the RX400h doesn't require this with the electric motor boost. Also, I believe timing is retarded as well, when knocking is detected, either from lower octane or from high intake air temps.