Rx 350 Vs Rx 400h ?

[drgman350]

What are the pros and cons of each ?

[wwest]

What are the pros and cons of each ?

If it's the AWD version you're considering the Rx400h should be your only choice.

But have a serious look at the Acura RDX in that case.

[drgman350]

What are the pros and cons of each ?

If it's the AWD version you're considering the Rx400h should be your only choice.

But have a serious look at the Acura RDX in that case.

It would be the AWD ...

Why are you saying the 400h if I am talking about the AWD?

[wwest]

What are the pros and cons of each ?

If it's the AWD version you're considering the Rx400h should be your only choice.

But have a serious look at the Acura RDX in that case.

It would be the AWD ...

Why are you saying the 400h if I am talking about the AWD?

The RX350 is not really AWD as you/we might need it to be here in this area. For that matter neither is the RX400h, truly AWD that is. But the 400h comes out on top of the two insofar as AWD capability is concerned. The RX350 AWD is quite firmly FWD in normal operational conditions, 95/5 F/R, and can make use of tire chains ONLY on the front wheels absent an aftermarket modification.

Were I to purchase a 400h I would immediately modify the driving torque distribution so the initial, startup, start off, drive would be ONLY from the rear wheel electric drive. With the front drive only brought on line if an extraordinarily high level of acceleration rate were required. I would also add the same wheel spacers I now use on the RX300 which allows me to use tire chains on the rear FIRST and then add the front ones when/if the need arises.

Idiotic FWD, F/AWD, and F/awd systems, the RX series with the latter.

If you wish to buy an upscale AWD hybrid SUV for fuel efficiency then look at the Mercury Mariner hybrid and if not a hybrid the Acura RDX. With the Mariner hybrid you could increase the safety factor substantially (convert it to RWD) by removing one (or both) of the front halfshafts and apply a constant voltage to the rear driveline clutch. The SH-AWD system is the ABSOLUTE BEST for AWD implementation of vehicles with sideways mounted engines. When/if they put SH-AWD in the Ridgeline I'll be giving up my '01 AWD RX300 and my '93 Ford Ranger PU.

[initiald]

The RX350 is not really AWD as you/we might need it to be here in this area. For that matter neither is the RX400h, truly AWD that is. But the 400h comes out on top of the two insofar as AWD capability is concerned. The RX350 AWD is quite firmly FWD in normal operational conditions, 95/5 F/R, and can make use of tire chains ONLY on the front wheels absent an aftermarket modification.

That is incorrect. Please research before you post info like that. What you say maybe true to something like a CRV but not RX350.

"The RX 350's all-wheel-drive system drops the previous solid center differential, which relied on the traction-control system to shift power between the front and rear wheels. In its place is a limited-slip viscous coupling device that Lexus says offers quicker response. Under normal situations, power is split 50-50 between front and rear wheels; if slippage occurs, additional power can be sent to the front or back."

[wwest]

The RX350 is not really AWD as you/we might need it to be here in this area. For that matter neither is the RX400h, truly AWD that is. But the 400h comes out on top of the two insofar as AWD capability is concerned. The RX350 AWD is quite firmly FWD in normal operational conditions, 95/5 F/R, and can make use of tire chains ONLY on the front wheels absent an aftermarket modification.

That is incorrect. Please research before you post info like that. What you say maybe true to something like a CRV but not RX350.

"The RX 350's all-wheel-drive system drops the previous solid center differential, which relied on the traction-control system to shift power between the front and rear wheels. In its place is a limited-slip viscous coupling device that Lexus says offers quicker response. Under normal situations, power is split 50-50 between front and rear wheels; if slippage occurs, additional power can be sent to the front or back."

The RX series has NEVER had a "solid center differential".

The RX300 AWD series has a simple open center diff'l just like the rear diff'l for RWD of days long gone by, one wheel slips, you're DEAD in the water. The difference is that the RX300 series has a viscous coupling mounted "across" that open center diff'. Si if the two drivelines, front and rear, for some reason developed different "spin" rates, the VC would stiffen within a few seconds and thereby partially "lock" the center diff'l.

In 2001 the RX300 series got TC, Traction Control, along with VSC, and a few other ABS pumpmotor enabled "features". The mechanical LSD that had been available for previous AWD models was dropped since TC would now be used to provide a "virtual" rear LSD.

GOT that...??

As of 2001 TC would be used to implement a VIRTUAL REAR LSD.

With the introduction of the RX330 Lexus initially announced, and widely advertised, that the RX330 also included the VC.

That proved to be wrong, it did not.

With the advent of the use of TC to virtualize the functionality of a rear LSD someone apparently forgot to tell the firmware programmers not to do the same thing with the open center diff'l. So there was absolutely NO reason to include the manufacturing cost of the VC nor the added weight to the product once this implementation is done via TC firmware.

Actually this "feature" TC braking implemented rear and center (and "soft" front LSD..???) virtual LSD goes all the way back to my 2001 AWD RX300. I'm quite sure that the VC in my '01 AWD RX300 is useless. The instant wheelspin/slip occurs due to engine torque and road conditions the slipping wheel(s) are braked and the engine is dethrottled via EFI fuel starvation.

But now, here we are with the RX350 available in the marketplace. Almost anywhere you look, dealer printed materials or internet, Lexus.com, you will find marketing materials touting the center VC.

Almost.

The exception being the FACTORY shop/repair manuals for the '07, '08, and '09 RX300. All of these indicate that the MF2A "transfer", with no VC, continues to be used in the RX350 product series. In the shop/repair manual series available at techinfo.toyota.com if you look under NCF, New Car Features, it goes in detail in stating that the "new" RX350 again makes use of the VC, the VC NOT used in the RX330 series. The NCF says that this is done via use of the MF2AV "transfer". A search of the term MF2AV in the ENTIRE '07, '08, and '09 RX350 document set indicate that this term is only found in the above referenced '07 NCF statements.

Obviously all of you are free to believe either the marketing materials that state throughout that the VC is used vs the shop/repair manuals that indicate otherwise.

But if you come down on the side of it having a VC then ask yourself how is it possible for the VC to have functionality with a TC system that responds INSTANTLY to wheelspin/slip via braking and dethrottling.

There is yet one more consideration that you must give some thought if you intent to purchase an AWD RX350 and actually have need for AWD functionality.

And that's is the patently UNSAFE nature of FWD and F/AWD when operating on an adverse roadbed, slippery roadbed, surface.

Is there ANY AWD vehicle out there in the marketplace, excepting the SH-AWD system, that has a sideways mounted engine and is NOT natively front torque biased..??

Absent TC, FWD and F/AWD vehicles are a serious safety hazard on adverse roadbed conditions for all passengers.

[SmilingBoognish]

I drove both the 400h and the 350. I found the 400h to have an annoying vibration and it wasn't as smooth as the as the non-hybrid. I didn't buy a vehicle this big for it's gas mileage and it is primarily a highway cruiser for us so the hybrid wouldn't have helped much, anyway.

WWest,

What has been your real world experience with your RX in slippery conditions? If I've got to chain up I'm going to be livid! My previous snow experience has been with Subaru's, which I've never had to chain up in 8 years of Tahoe powder days.

[wwest]

I drove both the 400h and the 350. I found the 400h to have an annoying vibration and it wasn't as smooth as the as the non-hybrid. I didn't buy a vehicle this big for it's gas mileage and it is primarily a highway cruiser for us so the hybrid wouldn't have helped much, anyway.

WWest,

What has been your real world experience with your RX in slippery conditions? If I've got to chain up I'm going to be livid! My previous snow experience has been with Subaru's, which I've never had to chain up in 8 years of Tahoe powder days.

Even back when we had Jeeps, an '85 and then a '92, I never hesitated to chain up if the going got rough. By rough I'm talking snow, packed snow, and ice.

Remember that you're not the only driver out there, far from it, amd the clear majority of other drivers are sheer idiots (mostly coupled with FWD or F/AWD) when it comes to driving on the slippery stuff.

We don't get very much really adverse weather here on the eastside of Seattle so I've only had chains on the RX maybe 2 or three times. I don't remember ever using the second set for the front even with a few wintertime trips to north central MT, Lewistown.

Oh, I probably wouldn't chain up either on "powder days", but what we get around here mostly is something we refer to as Pacific Boiler-plate.

Oh, with chains just on the rear the VC reacts as if the front is continuously slipping....

[SmilingBoognish]

Even back when we had Jeeps, an '85 and then a '92, I never hesitated to chain up if the going got rough. By rough I'm talking snow, packed snow, and ice.

Remember that you're not the only driver out there, far from it, amd the clear majority of other drivers are sheer idiots (mostly coupled with FWD or F/AWD) when it comes to driving on the slippery stuff.

Oh, I probably wouldn't chain up either on "powder days", but what we get around here mostly is something we refer to as Pacific Boiler-plate.

Thanks for the response. My Subaru had proper winter tires, with the snowflake emblem, and in my experience they stopped and turned better than all-seasons (M+S stamp) with chains. I will definitely be looking into a second set of wheels to wear winter tires on the Lexus, as well. Just for clarification, when it snows in the Sierras, CalTrans is right there scraping the roads and folks are busy driving on them. It gets packed and icy pretty quickly, and you the biggest danger is the person in their SUV who has never driven on snow before plowing into you. That is precisely why I spend the extra dough on proper tires - it increases my chances that I can maneuver out of the way of such an idiot.

[wwest]

Even back when we had Jeeps, an '85 and then a '92, I never hesitated to chain up if the going got rough. By rough I'm talking snow, packed snow, and ice.

Remember that you're not the only driver out there, far from it, amd the clear majority of other drivers are sheer idiots (mostly coupled with FWD or F/AWD) when it comes to driving on the slippery stuff.

Oh, I probably wouldn't chain up either on "powder days", but what we get around here mostly is something we refer to as Pacific Boiler-plate.

Thanks for the response. My Subaru had proper winter tires, with the snowflake emblem, and in my experience they stopped and turned better than all-seasons (M+S stamp) with chains. I will definitely be looking into a second set of wheels to wear winter tires on the Lexus, as well. Just for clarification, when it snows in the Sierras, CalTrans is right there scraping the roads and folks are busy driving on them. It gets packed and icy pretty quickly, and you the biggest danger is the person in their SUV who has never driven on snow before plowing into you. That is precisely why I spend the extra dough on proper tires - it increases my chances that I can maneuver out of the way of such an idiot.

Since I have gotten by for so long (back to 87 at least) running nice and quiet and comfortably riding summer tires throughout, summer, fall, winter & spring here on the eastside of Seattle, and you're being in the bay area I would advise the same. Hereabouts we rarely have snow and ice "events", and for those few I don't mind making the chain-up effort.

I am also of the opinion that since my summer tires have more tread contact area than almost any, if not all, specialty "winter" tires they actually give me better performance on ice or packed snow. IMMHO winter specialty tires are only advantagous if the surface "stuff" is loose enough for tread "bite".

So, most of the time my RX is nice and quiet riding and comfortably so.

[SmilingBoognish]

I am also of the opinion that since my summer tires have more tread contact area than almost any, if not all, specialty "winter" tires they actually give me better performance on ice or packed snow. IMMHO winter specialty tires are only advantagous if the surface "stuff" is loose enough for tread "bite".

You must be talking about all-season tires, not summer tires. Summer tires turn to hockey pucks somewhere around 35-40F and are insanely dangerous in any type of winter conditions. Having driven the same vehicle in snow on different tires, I can assure you that winter specific tires are vastly superior to all-seasons in ice and packed snow. It has more to do with the tire compound than actual tread pattern, but the effectiveness is both real and profound.

[Messerchmidt]

do not waste your $ on a pointless hybrid - pocket the cash and get the rx350. Burns a tad bit more gas, but its far cheaper, and I think - reliable

[ilovelexus2007]

do not waste your $ on a pointless hybrid - pocket the cash and get the rx350. Burns a tad bit more gas, but its far cheaper, and I think - reliable

It depends on what kind of driving condition you'll be using your RX. If you live in big city where the traffic is always congested or you use a lot of local strees or you plan to keep the car more than 7 years, then a hybrid is JUSTIFIED.

But people like us buying an RX400h not to save gas, here are a few things different between 400h and 350.

400h means 4.0 liter, V8 equivalent power with the fuel economy of a V6 Camry. 350 means only 3.5 liter, V6 power, that's it!

400h has CVT

400h has much lower EPA emission

400h weights 300lbs heavier, much the vehicle a lot more stable when driving in freeway.

and finally....how many 400h do you see out on the streets? Not many. So far I've only seen 2 this whole year. I lose count of how many times I've seen the 350s on the road. It has become way too common that it reminds me of a Honda Civic or Toyota Camry.

[Messerchmidt]

the sales guy tried to push me on the 400h - almost killed the deal...complete waste of $. If your a tree huge - ride a bike or get a prius, not an suv, even a

"hybrid" one. Mind you, a 4L v8 would be a nice touch for the rx...but again so would cylinder deactivation on the v6...

you see tons a rx330/350s on the road for good reason. great suv overall.

mercedes *BLEEP*ed me off else i would have gotten the ml320cdi - at least there you have some fuel economy - much better than any hybrid & torque to boot. Mind you, I do like the LED lighting on the 400h better than whats on my 350.

[wwest]

I am also of the opinion that since my summer tires have more tread contact area than almost any, if not all, specialty "winter" tires they actually give me better performance on ice or packed snow. IMMHO winter specialty tires are only advantagous if the surface "stuff" is loose enough for tread "bite".

You must be talking about all-season tires, not summer tires. Summer tires turn to hockey pucks somewhere around 35-40F and are insanely dangerous in any type of winter conditions. Having driven the same vehicle in snow on different tires, I can assure you that winter specific tires are vastly superior to all-seasons in ice and packed snow. It has more to do with the tire compound than actual tread pattern, but the effectiveness is both real and profound.

NO, I truly, really, meant SUMMER tire.

"Summer tires turn to hockey pucks somewhere around 35-40F....."

Assuming tire manufacturers have a rubber formulation that allows winter "specialty" tires to remain "soft" in cold weather what makes you of the mind that the same formulation would not be used for summer ONLY tires..??

Not too many years ago it was an accepted fact that winter specialty tires had shorter tread life than their summertime counterparts.

Have you checked those tread mileage wear ratios lately...??

"Insanely dangerous....."

I might say that about your winter specialty tires running on hard packed snow or ice.......

Again, my need for running on really adverse road conditions is fairly rare, 2 or 3 days most winters provided I don't go off snow skiing or travel off to central MT. So, for those rare times of need it is FAR more practical for me to simply install tire chains and be on my way, on my way around and generally passing anyone that thinks their 4WD/4X4, with the absolute BEST winter specialty tires, can go where I can.

Oh, when was the last time you saw a winter specialty tire tested other than on the "loose" stuff, or up against a "summer use" only tire on packed snow or ice..??

All I have ever seen, going back maybe 10 years, is one winter tire against another brand or type of winter tire and always with the ability to "fling" that loose surface stuff to the side.

Marketing, showmanship.....

[SmilingBoognish]

Assuming tire manufacturers have a rubber formulation that allows winter "specialty" tires to remain "soft" in cold weather what makes you of the mind that the same formulation would not be used for summer ONLY tires..??

Oh, when was the last time you saw a winter specialty tire tested other than on the "loose" stuff, or up against a "summer use" only tire on packed snow or ice..??

The formulation of both the tread and sidewall is different in summer tires vs. winter tires. It's a fact, and if you choose not to believe it, that is your business. But for the sake of everyone around you, I hope that you do chain up at the slightest hint of a snow flurry. I can guarantee you that appropriate tires on packed snow and ice are superior and safer than summer specific tires. I have seen it, and independent organizations test it.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/snow_tires.htm

http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?m...v=TractionTires

[wwest]

Assuming tire manufacturers have a rubber formulation that allows winter "specialty" tires to remain "soft" in cold weather what makes you of the mind that the same formulation would not be used for summer ONLY tires..??

Oh, when was the last time you saw a winter specialty tire tested other than on the "loose" stuff, or up against a "summer use" only tire on packed snow or ice..??

The formulation of both the tread and sidewall is different in summer tires vs. winter tires. It's a fact, and if you choose not to believe it, that is your business. But for the sake of everyone around you, I hope that you do chain up at the slightest hint of a snow flurry. I can guarantee you that appropriate tires on packed snow and ice are superior and safer than summer specific tires. I have seen it, and independent organizations test it.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/tires/snow_tires.htm

http://www.tripcheck.com/Pages/RCMap.asp?m...v=TractionTires

"It's a fact..."

Facts are almost always printed in hardcopy somewhere but try as I might I cannot find any references that indicate that summer tires are any less capable of remaining "soft" than are winter specialty tires.

Granted, there is lots of documentation indicating that many winter tires have specially formulated rubber compounds so as to keep their grip in COLD weather. But where does it say that those special rubber formulations are not used in "summer use only" tires...???

And keep in mind that it is in the industries BEST interest to sell EVERYONE two sets of tires.

And I see NOTHING in the links you supplied that refutes my overall position.

The Oregon link was especially interesting to me because not too many years ago we would often pile into the car about noon on Friday and head south to Mt Hood or Mt Bachelor. As I remember it in those days the Oregon "road patrol mounties" didn't give a nat's behind about the type of tires you had just that you had to have chains on if/when required. If road conditions ahead required additional traction then it became chain up time regardless of drive types (our Jeep had RWD/AWD/4WD and 4X4 modes) or tire tread.

And front tire chains alone DID NOT SUFFICE for FWD vehicles. I remember at least one time that the Oregon "mounties" required me to take my front chains off the front of my Jeep and install them on the rear before they would allow me to proceed.

Anyone out there that can give us the latest approved procedure for the road to Mt Bachelor beyond the Sun River cutoff when extra traction is required...??

[SmilingBoognish]

"It's a fact..."

Facts are almost always printed in hardcopy somewhere but try as I might I cannot find any references that indicate that summer tires are any less capable of remaining "soft" than are winter specialty tires.

Granted, there is lots of documentation indicating that many winter tires have specially formulated rubber compounds so as to keep their grip in COLD weather. But where does it say that those special rubber formulations are not used in "summer use only" tires...???

And I see NOTHING in the links you supplied that refutes my overall position.

The links I provided talked about the snowflake emblem and that in order for a tire to have it, it must past certain performance tasks which prove they meet certain minimum criteria for winter traction. Why you continue to post this opinion of yours that summer tires are just fine in packed snow and ice conditions is beyond me and actually dangerous to anyone stupid enough to believe you.

Evidently, figuring out that summer tires get hard in the cold is pretty tough. Here are the first four hits I got from a google search:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ti...n-the-cold-406/

Summer tires are out of their element when it gets cold and slippery and shouldn't be driven on ice or snow because they are designed for dry and wet conditions. Their performance rubber compounds are stiff in cold temperatures, and their treads lack the slits, called sipes, that bite into snow.

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/t_inside.c...312&pgNum=2

This compound's makeup will likely tend to become "harder" (the rubber will tend to become more like plastic) when exposed to temperatures below 32 degrees F, which detracts from tractional properties. Winter tires utilize special compounds that remain pliable in cold temperatures.

http://www.dailypilot.com/articles/2008/04...71918167798.txt

Keeping it simple, the basic thing to know, according to Vandewater, is that summer and winter tires are specifically built for those seasons, temperatures and driving surfaces. All-season tires, on the other hand, are a compromise between both since the properties of a good summer tire and a good winter tire contradict each other in nearly every aspect, from tread design and softness of the compound (which used to be made of rubber but is now a blend of synthetic ingredients) to sidewall construction.

http://www.freshalloy.com/site/features/te.../001/home.shtml

If you use a summer tire with its specially designed compound in the winter, the compound makes the tire very hard and it won't conform as well to the road conditions.

To try and take this thread back to some semblance of it's original intent, I'll sum and say don't let the AWD system be the deciding factor between a hybrid or non-hybrid. Tires are much more important.

[wwest]

"It's a fact..."

Facts are almost always printed in hardcopy somewhere but try as I might I cannot find any references that indicate that summer tires are any less capable of remaining "soft" than are winter specialty tires.

Granted, there is lots of documentation indicating that many winter tires have specially formulated rubber compounds so as to keep their grip in COLD weather. But where does it say that those special rubber formulations are not used in "summer use only" tires...???

And I see NOTHING in the links you supplied that refutes my overall position.

The links I provided talked about the snowflake emblem and that in order for a tire to have it, it must past certain performance tasks which prove they meet certain minimum criteria for winter traction. Why you continue to post this opinion of yours that summer tires are just fine in packed snow and ice conditions is beyond me and actually dangerous to anyone stupid enough to believe you.

Evidently, figuring out that summer tires get hard in the cold is pretty tough. Here are the first four hits I got from a google search:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ti...n-the-cold-406/

Summer tires are out of their element when it gets cold and slippery and shouldn't be driven on ice or snow because they are designed for dry and wet conditions. Their performance rubber compounds are stiff in cold temperatures, and their treads lack the slits, called sipes, that bite into snow.

You're quoting consumer reports as an authority on tire tread compounds...? Or worse yet you seem to expect us, ME, to believe them..??

Is there ANY indication that their statements were well founded, maybe based on some actual testing..??

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/t_inside.c...312&pgNum=2

This compound's makeup will likely tend to become "harder" (the rubber will tend to become more like plastic) when exposed to temperatures below 32 degrees F, which detracts from tractional properties. Winter tires utilize special compounds that remain pliable in cold temperatures.

"tend to become "harder"." "tend to become more like plastic"

ALL tires will "tend to" become harder as they cool. Sounds, reads like, "marketeer" statement/wording under the advice of a barrister.

http://www.dailypilot.com/articles/2008/04...71918167798.txt

Keeping it simple, the basic thing to know, according to Vandewater, is that summer and winter tires are specifically built for those seasons, temperatures and driving surfaces. All-season tires, on the other hand, are a compromise between both since the properties of a good summer tire and a good winter tire contradict each other in nearly every aspect, from tread design and softness of the compound (which used to be made of rubber but is now a blend of synthetic ingredients) to sidewall construction.

Now you want us to take Vandewater's words as "truth"

http://www.freshalloy.com/site/features/te.../001/home.shtml

If you use a summer tire with its specially designed compound in the winter, the compound makes the tire very hard and it won't conform as well to the road conditions.

To try and take this thread back to some semblance of it's original intent, I'll sum and say don't let the AWD system be the deciding factor between a hybrid or non-hybrid. Tires are much more important.

Look, all you need do to prove to the "world" that you're right and I'm wrong is find "someone" who has tested non-ABS stopping distances for summer only tires vs ANY winter tire on an ice rink surface.

Simple, right...??

[SmilingBoognish]

Um, the "world" has been convinced. Quit being an idiot. Here's an ice rink test done by one of the sponsors of this site:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=80

If you want to believe that the world is flat, that the Easter Bunny hides eggs for you and that drilled brake rotors are better in the rain than vented rotors, that is your business. It really doesn't affect anyone else. But advocating the use of summer tires in winter conditions is dangerous and irresponsible. We all have to share the road with you. I don't give two shiny shytes about proving anything. What I do care about is someone believing your drivel and consequently crashing into an innocent driver.

[skywagon]

Um, the "world" has been convinced. Quit being an idiot. Here's an ice rink test done by one of the sponsors of this site:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=80

If you want to believe that the world is flat, that the Easter Bunny hides eggs for you and that drilled brake rotors are better in the rain than vented rotors, that is your business. It really doesn't affect anyone else. But advocating the use of summer tires in winter conditions is dangerous and irresponsible. We all have to share the road with you. I don't give two shiny shytes about proving anything. What I do care about is someone believing your drivel and consequently crashing into an innocent driver.

:( After 23 posts and you are calling people Idiots??? You are the total idiot period!!!!!!! :chairshot:

[SmilingBoognish]

:( After 23 posts and you are calling people Idiots??? You are the total idiot period!!!!!!! :chairshot:

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

At least I'm not posting patently false information.

[wwest]

Um, the "world" has been convinced. Quit being an idiot. Here's an ice rink test done by one of the sponsors of this site:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=80

If you want to believe that the world is flat, that the Easter Bunny hides eggs for you and that drilled brake rotors are better in the rain than vented rotors, that is your business. It really doesn't affect anyone else. But advocating the use of summer tires in winter conditions is dangerous and irresponsible. We all have to share the road with you. I don't give two shiny shytes about proving anything. What I do care about is someone believing your drivel and consequently crashing into an innocent driver.

Tirerack..Ice rink testing.

Do I get this right..? The testing simply involved how quickly you can accelerate straight ahead for the initial 60 feet from a dead stop...??

Most of us, I think, would consider stopping distance as of primary importance and turning ability as second...

How fast can I accelerate on a "known" slippery surface...just what does that go to proving...??

As I said before, how fast can a specific car STOP on a FROZEN ice rink surface with "summer only" use tires and with ABS disabled vs ANY winter tire.

[SmilingBoognish]

How fast can I accelerate on a "known" slippery surface...just what does that go to proving...??

traction.

I'm done trying to entertain any rational discussion on this topic. I think anyone who is reading this has enough information to make an intelligent choice. Good luck out there.