Brake Noise Tsbs

[RX in NC]

Any 2004 RX330 owners out there who have successfully resolved intermittent "clunk" or "groan" noises originating in the front brakes when braking fairly quickly from about 40 mph or so? I noticed a clunk/groan or two last weekend while driving my wife's RX. These noises are NOT due to the brake pads wearing down to the point where they are beginning to chirp - I pulled the wheels and checked the pads; they have at least half of their original pad thickness remaining.

After doing some research I learned that there are two Technical Service Bulletins on the 2004 RX330 that may be involved in this particular issue. One TSB involves replacing the original rotors with a better designed-and-engineered rotor that is less prone to warping (TSB 004-04), and the other TSB involves replacing the original transmission oil cooler tube assembly with one that is better designed for a tighter fit to eliminate noise upon braking (TSB 002-04).

Has anyone out there had either or both of these TSBs done to their 2004 RX330? If so, did it eliminate the annoying noises upon quick braking?

My wife's RX goes into the dealership this coming Monday for a list of warranty repairs and this particular problem is by far the most important (and annoying). I'll update this thread on what was determined and what actions were taken once I have the results. In the meantime, if you've dealt with this problem and had it resolved, please post here as well. Thanks.

[RX in NC]

As expected, our local Lexus service manager readily agreed to perform both TSB upgrades that I requested yesterday. We'll see if that resolves the front brake noise issue once and for all, and it will be nice to have a brand-new set of front rotors before my wife passes the 50,000-mile mark later on this summer. Should have the vehicle back by Wednesday or Thursday since we're having several other warranty issues addressed during this same visit to the dealership. They are making second attempts to quiet a couple of back-seat rattles and fix the drivers seat heater that has consistently tended to heat for awhile and then lose effectiveness. So we'll see how that goes....

[lenore]

Hey RX, hope you are well, brake noise? What do the tsb say? You know our old RX300 were pretty quiet so what gives with the RX330.....

[RX in NC]

I've described the two individual TSBs in my initial post that leads off this thread. One provides new front rotors, the other provides a new transmission oil cooler tube assembly. The new front rotors are supposedly better-made, and the new tube assembly supposedly fits better and tighter to prevent noise. We'll see....

There are a number of RX330 owners on this forum who have complained about short brake pad life and warping rotors, so obviously something changed between the RX300 and RX330 since it was well-known that RX300 brakes lasted a very long time (usually more than 75,000 miles for careful, average drivers). Perhaps Lexus attempted to cut costs on the rotors for the RX330, went to a different supplier, and therefore created problems where there didn't used to be any. As long as these new front rotors will keep quiet and not wear out so quickly, I'll be satisfied with this particular issue. Right now it is the only major issue on my wife's vehicle. But she is getting annoyed with the various interior rattles that have required multiple trips to the dealership to finally get resolved.

All in all I still believe that the RX330 is a better vehicle than the RX300 is. But it remains quite inferior to a number of other all-wheel-drive SUV choices that she could have made including the Acura RDX, the Mazda CX7, the Subaru Outback, or another Jeep Grand Cherokee....

[lenore]

I've described the two individual TSBs in my initial post that leads off this thread. One provides new front rotors, the other provides a new transmission oil cooler tube assembly. The new front rotors are supposedly better-made, and the new tube assembly supposedly fits better and tighter to prevent noise. We'll see....

There are a number of RX330 owners on this forum who have complained about short brake pad life and warping rotors, so obviously something changed between the RX300 and RX330 since it was well-known that RX300 brakes lasted a very long time (usually more than 75,000 miles for careful, average drivers). Perhaps Lexus attempted to cut costs on the rotors for the RX330, went to a different supplier, and therefore created problems where there didn't used to be any. As long as these new front rotors will keep quiet and not wear out so quickly, I'll be satisfied with this particular issue. Right now it is the only major issue on my wife's vehicle. But she is getting annoyed with the various interior rattles that have required multiple trips to the dealership to finally get resolved.

All in all I still believe that the RX330 is a better vehicle than the RX300 is. But it remains quite inferior to a number of other all-wheel-drive SUV choices that she could have made including the Acura RDX, the Mazda CX7, the Subaru Outback, or another Jeep Grand Cherokee....

Oh boy, I am not reading this morning. thanks for the info, Have a great day...

[wwest]

I've described the two individual TSBs in my initial post that leads off this thread. One provides new front rotors, the other provides a new transmission oil cooler tube assembly. The new front rotors are supposedly better-made, and the new tube assembly supposedly fits better and tighter to prevent noise. We'll see....

There are a number of RX330 owners on this forum who have complained about short brake pad life and warping rotors, so obviously something changed between the RX300 and RX330 since it was well-known that RX300 brakes lasted a very long time (usually more than 75,000 miles for careful, average drivers). Perhaps Lexus attempted to cut costs on the rotors for the RX330, went to a different supplier, and therefore created problems where there didn't used to be any. As long as these new front rotors will keep quiet and not wear out so quickly, I'll be satisfied with this particular issue. Right now it is the only major issue on my wife's vehicle. But she is getting annoyed with the various interior rattles that have required multiple trips to the dealership to finally get resolved.

All in all I still believe that the RX330 is a better vehicle than the RX300 is. But it remains quite inferior to a number of other all-wheel-drive SUV choices that she could have made including the Acura RDX, the Mazda CX7, the Subaru Outback, or another Jeep Grand Cherokee....

"All in all I still believe that the RX330 is a better vehicle than the RX300 is."

NOT...!!!

The most likely reason or possibility for extraordinary brake wear, especially at the front wheels of the ALL-WHEEL-DRIVE RX330 is the fact that the viscous clutch was eliminated for the entire RX330 product run. That left it ENTIRELY the "responsibility" of TC, Traction Control, for re-allocating, apportioning, engine torque to the rear wheels upon front wheelspin/slip via the use of moderate, modulated, front braking and subsequent (instant?) engine dethrottling.

It is probable that the RX300 brake rotors/pads/calipers were carried over, at least to the earlier RX330's, without realizing that they might not, wouldn't, stand up to the EXTRA duty of TC braking resulting from the loss of the viscous clutch capability, for whatever that VC was actually worth. WORTHLESS IMMHO.

Since there was no VC it is also highly probable that the TC firmware was "retuned", sensitized, above its operational level in the RX300 to take up some of the slack from the VC loss. They may have even added a "virtual" front LSD capability using TC. Althought I notice that some of the newer Toyota/Lexus FWD and front torque biased AWD vehicles make use of TC to implement a "virtual" front LSD capability have a manual on/off control and with the most appropreate note of caution along with. So if your RX330 (RX350??) does have front LSD capability it is probably almost ("virtually") un-noticeable.

"But it remains quite inferior too..."

Not just quite inferior too, but NOT even in the same class, NOT NEARLY.

The RX series AWD system is only a PRETEND AWD system, used as a "point" of marketing only.

The only one you mention that might be classed with the RX series is the Mazda, and that's only because I don't know one way or another personally. But I do KNOW that the JEEP Cherokee belongs in an entirely different, STELLAR, AWD class, as likely does the RDX's SH-AWD system.

And the RX300, at least my 2001 (no DBW), didn't come with the RX330's random possibility of 1-2 second engine/transaxle downshift delay/hesitation nor the additional aspect of the Rx350's engine 3-4 upshift surging/flare along with. On the other hand I do expect to see premature transaxle failure in my 2001 AWD RX300 within the first 80-100,000 miles arising from the same base design flaw. But at least that premature failure shouldn't be considered a safety concern.

Put the GS350's DFI V6 engine/drivetrain and its AWD system in the 2009 RX series and I'll be first in the market to trade up.

Or move the RXh ICE to the rear (smallish boxer "4" with electrically controlled CVT {infinitely variable} driving an SC) with ICE/MG1 rear drive and MG2 front electric drive/regen.

But I do wish some of the new c-best options for the RX350 were available on my RX.

[SW03ES]

I had the TSIB done for my ES300, different vehicle but the same basic issue of the rotor being incompatible with the pad causing the groaning. I never had the noise return once it was done and the pad life has been on par with what I expect.

wwest, his issue has nothing to do with any of that. Its a well known TSIB on the 03-04 ES300/330 and the 04 RX330.

[RX in NC]

Say what you want, wwest, but the RX330 is indeed an all-around better-built vehicle than the early RX300 is. It has more engine power and does not suffer from the oil gelling issue, it has not shown a tendency to be prone to transmission failure, it does not suffer from the rear main seal oil leak issue, it is not prone to exhaust manifold cracking, it does not burn through oxygen sensors as the RX300 does, and it does not have improperly designed strut mount bushings. It also delivers a better ride and improved steering control (especially in tight turns). And it even achieves slightly better gas mileage.

That certainly doesn't infer that it is a world-class SUV because it is far from that. Look at the choices I've already listed that are definitely better all-wheel-drive vehicles than any RX. Yes, the RX330 still has many weaknesses including what I consider to be less-than-desirable brakes, a weak AWD system, a transmission that still doesn't shift nearly as smoothly as my 8-year-old Dodge Ram pickup does, and a proclivity to develop interior rattles that is inexcusable for a vehicle in its price range.

But it is better than the lousy 1999 and 2000 RX300s that preceeded it. We've owned a 2000. We now own a 2004. I've had enough experience with each to know that the 2004 should present fewer serious problems over its lifespan in our household. And at this point, that's what I care about. It's not my vehicle - I never would have chosen it - but I have to maintain it. I'd rather be stuck with a 2004 RX330 AWD than our old 2000 RX300 AWD, hands down....

[RX in NC]

My wife picked up her vehicle yesterday afternoon from our local Lexus service department. Both previously-mentioned TSBs were performed and the intermittent front brake "groans" and "clunks" generated upon quick, hard stops have disappeared. It's good to have a brand-new set of supposedly redesigned rotors up front.

If you own a 2004 RX330 and you haven't yet had these two TSBs performed, do yourself a favor and schedule an appointment. The front brakes are quieter and stronger immediately afterwards.

It's too soon to tell if the dealership's third attempt to quiet several annoying interior rattles have rectified those particular problems, but time will tell.

I also had the HVAC servo motor behind the dashboard replaced because I've been hearing it pop and crackle as it would hunt back and forth between operations. This action stopped that problem as well.

They also had to replace the drivers seat heater switch. Previously they had to replace both the drivers and passengers seat heater elements. Seat heating may turn out to be a persistent problem in this vehicle. I don't care because I never turn the damn things on, but my wife regards seat heaters as one of her "must-have" options in her primary vehicle.

So this vehicle certainly has its quirks and tendencies, but nothing major thus far. It's still under warranty and our local service manager has approved everything I've asked them to do based upon my research of the individual problems that have popped up. Couldn't ask for better support from her at this point....

[wwest]

I had the TSIB done for my ES300, different vehicle but the same basic issue of the rotor being incompatible with the pad causing the groaning. I never had the noise return once it was done and the pad life has been on par with what I expect.

wwest, his issue has nothing to do with any of that. Its a well known TSIB on the 03-04 ES300/330 and the 04 RX330.

Pardon me, but..

What is it about the wording of the TSB that results in your conclusion that in the case of the AWD Rxes the carry over of the previous generation brake rotor/pads did not result in early/premature wear/failure due to a higher level of TC use being required?

Why can't both be true?

[newtoncd]

RX, glad you got it all fixed.

I hope you don't experience the brake warping I have gone through on our 04 RX330. I have been back at the dealership or independent specializing in Toyota/Lexus at 26K, 55K and 74K to fix the rotors. This is with the TSB's applied.

[RX in NC]

newtoncd,

I would be furious if I had your vehicle. Something is seriously wrong. Either they're sticking the same defective rotors back on there while telling you that they gave you the new-and-improved version, or some goon is putting far too much torque on your lug nuts, or perhaps some idiot installed ceramic brake pads when your rotors are designed to handle only semi-metallic pads. I wish I had the answer for you because I couldn't stand to put up with a vehicle that goes through brakes every 25,000 miles....

[newtoncd]

RX, trust me, I am not pleased.

I always take the RX to Discount Tire for rotation and I watch them hand-torque the lug nuts.

On the repair order, the indy shop said they used OEM parts with TSB BR004-04 at 62K (correction to my previous post which stated 52K); at 62K, I thought it was all fixed, but we were driving up in the mountains one weekend and it started up again, this time at 74K. We very seldom drive up in the mountains, so it isn't like we do this on a continuous basis.

I went to Kuni Lexus in Denver and wrote to Lexus of America to see about a long-term fix or at least reimbursement for the costs of getting the same part fixed multiple times; no luck. This is our third Toyota/Lexus product and I can't see purchasing another one.

[wwest]

RX, trust me, I am not pleased.

I always take the RX to Discount Tire for rotation and I watch them hand-torque the lug nuts.

On the repair order, the indy shop said they used OEM parts with TSB BR004-04 at 62K (correction to my previous post which stated 52K); at 62K, I thought it was all fixed, but we were driving up in the mountains one weekend and it started up again, this time at 74K. We very seldom drive up in the mountains, so it isn't like we do this on a continuous basis.

I went to Kuni Lexus in Denver and wrote to Lexus of America to see about a long-term fix or at least reimbursement for the costs of getting the same part fixed multiple times; no luck. This is our third Toyota/Lexus product and I can't see purchasing another one.

Do you know if, or not, the rotor warpage involved both rotors in all three cases. And if not, which one, left, right, or alternate? A poorly lubricated, gauled, or worn brake caliper guide pin can result in only one brake pad primarily providing the braking (caliper doesn't fully "float") and thereby result in premature rotor warping and/or wheel bearing failure.

Otherwise have you at all thought about, considered, the possibility of disabling the DBW throttle opening servomotor unless the brake lights are OFF..?

[newtoncd]

Do you know if, or not, the rotor warpage involved both rotors in all three cases. And if not, which one, left, right, or alternate? A poorly lubricated, gauled, or worn brake caliper guide pin can result in only one brake pad primarily providing the braking (caliper doesn't fully "float") and thereby result in premature rotor warping and/or wheel bearing failure.

Otherwise have you at all thought about, considered, the possibility of disabling the DBW throttle opening servomotor unless the brake lights are OFF..?

Neither the dealership nor the indy ever came back and said it was only one side or the other.

I have no idea how to disable the DBW servomotor, I am not even sure what that would do for me.

[wwest]

Do you know if, or not, the rotor warpage involved both rotors in all three cases. And if not, which one, left, right, or alternate? A poorly lubricated, gauled, or worn brake caliper guide pin can result in only one brake pad primarily providing the braking (caliper doesn't fully "float") and thereby result in premature rotor warping and/or wheel bearing failure.

Otherwise have you at all thought about, considered, the possibility of disabling the DBW throttle opening servomotor unless the brake lights are OFF..?

Neither the dealership nor the indy ever came back and said it was only one side or the other.

I have no idea how to disable the DBW servomotor, I am not even sure what that would do for me.

Just in case someone is unconsciously "resting" their left foot on the brake pedal.

[SW03ES]

Pardon me, but..

What is it about the wording of the TSB that results in your conclusion that in the case of the AWD Rxes the carry over of the previous generation brake rotor/pads did not result in early/premature wear/failure due to a higher level of TC use being required?

Why can't both be true?

Then why is the FWD ES300 included in the same TSB? And the FWD RX330? The TSB specifically lists the problem as being an incompatibility between the material of the pad and the finish of the rotors.

You just make everything so complicated. If you want to pretend its something as convoluted as that, have at it.

[wwest]

Pardon me, but..

What is it about the wording of the TSB that results in your conclusion that in the case of the AWD Rxes the carry over of the previous generation brake rotor/pads did not result in early/premature wear/failure due to a higher level of TC use being required?

Why can't both be true?

Then why is the FWD ES300 included in the same TSB? And the FWD RX330? The TSB specifically lists the problem as being an incompatibility between the material of the pad and the finish of the rotors.

You just make everything so complicated. If you want to pretend its something as convoluted as that, have at it.

My point is...

The wording, implementation, of the TSB does not preclude there also being an issue, problem, with the RX AWD models in the manner I described. Yes, the proposed RX AWD rotor problem would not result or lead directly to the TSB being issued, but...

[SW03ES]

You're absolutely right, that must undoubtedly be the cause. :whistles:

Maybe it was aliens...or global warming...

[RX in NC]

My wife's 2004 RX330 AWD is back at the Lexus dealership today and I won't be surprised if it spends the rest of the week there. Since the TSB was done to replace the transmission oil cooler tube assembly in late May, the engine has run a bit rougher and gas mileage has dropped by 1.5 to 2 mpg. I suspect that the service techs may have left a vacuum hose only partially connected or perhaps an electrical connection undone somewhere. We'll see. And since the HVAC servo motor was replaced during the same service visit, her radio reception has been lousy. I suspect they may have disconnected the antenna cable when getting to the servo motor in the dashboard. Again, we'll see. Also, the rear seat console rattles have returned, so this will be their third attempt to quiet this problem. I don't hold out much hope for them ever resolving this one and it continues to annoy the hell out of my wife. I think she'll finally learn to turn up the CD player....

The one piece of good news is that the TSB that was applied to replace the front brake rotors has indeed silenced the intermittent groaning that would suddenly occur during a hard stop. So apparently the Lexus techs didn't screw that one up....

So we're batting one-for-four right now on the issues with her RX330 and the dealership's attempts to get them resolved. Any bets on whether that indeed happens during this particular stay in the shop?!! They carelessly left a couple of shop tools in the vehicle last time which my wife was kind enough to return before she drove away. If this keeps up, I won't be as apt to return them in the future....