02-06 Transmission hesitation problems

[aminklein]

After about a year of filing complaints about the transmission problem in my 2005 ES 330 with various government and private agencies, the Lexus area representative finally contacted me and stated that Lexus wanted to buy back the car. They did this after I filed a complaint with the MA Attorney General. She stated that within the next few weeks they would send me a letter with a formal offer. I don't have high expectations for a good offer.

I bought the car in August 2005. It had a MSRP of $35,259 plus transportation. It now has only about 3000 miles and is in virtually NEW condition. I've seen values ranging from $26,500 (trade-in) to $29,500 (dealer sale). How much do you think Lexus will offer me? I'll post the result, when received.

Incidently, among the organizations that I've filed complaints are:

NHTSA

Center for Auto Safety

MA Attorney General

Consumer Reports

[mikek753]

After about a year of filing complaints about the transmission problem in my 2005 ES 330 with various government and private agencies, the Lexus area representative finally contacted me and stated that Lexus wanted to buy back the car. They did this after I filed a complaint with the MA Attorney General. She stated that within the next few weeks they would send me a letter with a formal offer. I don't have high expectations for a good offer.

I bought the car in August 2005. It had a MSRP of $35,259 plus transportation. It now has only about 3000 miles and is in virtually NEW condition. I've seen values ranging from $26,500 (trade-in) to $29,500 (dealer sale). How much do you think Lexus will offer me? I'll post the result, when received.

Incidently, among the organizations that I've filed complaints are:

NHTSA

Center for Auto Safety

MA Attorney General

Consumer Reports

that would be interesting

I didn't complain to anyone, but Lexus service. They didn't fix the issue.

[aminklein]

Finally received my formal offer from Lexus. In spite of the fact that they are insisting that it is a voluntary repurchase, they are using the MA Lemon Law formula in computing the payment. Basically they're paying me what I paid for the car in August 2006 plus any associated fees (sales tax, registration fees, etc.) minus a small amount for miles driven. I'm very happy with their response. It took a year of complaints, but when they decided to take action, it moved fast. Suddenly I'm a great supporter of Lexus, but won't be so quick in the future to purchase one without a thorough inspection.

For all of you who have a state Lemon Law, use it. I get the message that Lexus will settle before the case reaches the adjudication state. Good Luck

[aminklein]

Correction to my last message. I purchased the ES 330 in August 2005 !

[wwest]

Impossible to believe...

Ford has the answer.....!

From the new 2007 Ford Edge PR..

"<i>The electronically shift controlled transmission also features a variable displacement pump, which matches the amount of fluid that gets pushed through the transmission to driver demand, making it more efficient.</i>"

At full lift-throttle all of the FWD Toyota/lexus vehicles begin an upshift just as the engine RPM drops to idle. With the engine at idle the upshift will exhaust/use most, or possibly all, of the pressurized ATF.

Now if you happen to re-apply foot pressure to the accelerator pedal just as the upshift begins the engine/transaxle ECU will "know" to delay the onset of engine until the low engine "idle" RPM can build enough ATF pressure to complete the corresponding downshift.

The most obvious answer would be to increase the volume of the fixed volume ATF pump so enough pressure/flow could be provided for two sequential QUICK shifts with the engine at idle. But then most of that added volume would be bypassed, disapated as heat, as the engine RPM rises above idle.

Ford's answer, apparently, is to have a variable displacement ATF pump so it can be switched to high volume when quick/SOLID shifting is required with the engine at idle. Makes me wonder if that allowed them to eliminate the ATF pressure bypass relief spring/valve also.

That would REALLY increase transaxle efficiency.

A second option would havre been to have an ATF pressure storage accumulator (like the ABS pumpmotor asembly). But putting one of those in an already "crowded" six-speed transaxle is probably out of the question.

Anyone know if any of the newer Toyota/Lexus transaxles have either? Absent one or the other the delay/hesitation issue will undoubtedly continue.

[SW03ES]

:whistles:

[wwest]

Just thinking out loud.

Why couldn't toyota use the DBW system to match engine RPM to current gear ratio/roadspeed upon FULL lift-throttle and thereby eliminate engine compression braking?

Adverse effect on FE so probably not.

Then again look how rare these instances seem to be, FULL lift-throttle coastdowns vs partial lift-throttle for entering cruising mode. If nothing else this technique could be used for the first few hundred milliseconds of FULL lift-throttle, thereby delaying the transaxle upshift, in case a quick return to acceleration is indicated.

But then how would drivers react to the resulting engine RPM "flare" during FULL lift-throttle events?

Worrisome.

[steviej]

:whistles:

it's like a dog with a bone. . . . . . . . . .just won't let go.

[SW03ES]

LOL!

[wwest]

Bit into the marrow...??

Details....

At ~40k miles my 2001 AWD RX300's ATF was looking/smelled burned and appeared to be contaminated. I changed it out twice, 4 qts first time and 5 the second, after I discovered the second ATF drain plug in the diff'l case.

Am now at ~60K miles and the ATF still looks mostly pristine.

I became suspicious of the possibility of the VC heating to operational levels so I checked the condition of the gearcase oil in the transfer case and it looked okay, clear.

I have always checked the ATF fill/condition at each DIY oil change and I don't remember taking note of any ATF problems/indications prior to the 40k mark.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should revise my theory of the proposed sequence of events that led to all of these early transaxle failures and then engine/transaxle downshift delay/hesitation issues problems.

Suppose...

In about 99 Toyota and Lexus started using the FULL lift-throttle upshift sequence in order to A), improve FE, B), prevent engine compression braking from interfering with ABS activity, C), reduce the potential for loss of

directional control due to engine compression braking, and D), any or all of the above.

Apparently the ATF oil pressure pump in these earlier models did not have the capacity to provide enough pressure/flow for two gear changes in quick succession so

these transaxles begin to fail due to the unexpected rate of clutch frictional surface wear from slippage.

So the ATF oil pressure pump in the later models (2000, 2001 RX300??) had more pumping capacity.

The problem that arises (arose?) from that fix is the fact that providing this extra volume/flow pump capacity with the engine at idle meant bypassing HUGE volumes of pressurized ATF at high engine RPM even when no volume, or very little volume, at all was/is required.

Not only HIGHLY INEFFICIENT, but generates lots, TONS, of extra heat in the process. (Was the trailer towing package, including external ATF cooling heat exchanger, in my 2001 REALLY an option?)

Overheated ATF resulting in the requirement that (thoroughly BOILED) ATF be changed out on a 15,000 mile schedule.

So by 2004, the RX330, the lower capacity ATF pump was back in use and DBW was being used to delay engine torque development until the required downshift was completed. Note that the VC was also dropped for the entire

RX330 run.

Now I know why Ford has just announced they are using a variable displacement ATF pump in the new (FWD) Ford Edge "for improved transaxle operational efficiency".

That would allow them to have HIGH volume/displacement capacity when gearshifts are commanded at low engine RPM, and proportionately lower volume/displacement depending on engine RPM at other gearshift times. And only enough volume to overcome system leakage and provide computing power

(valve body) otherwise.

Highly efficient and no requirement to use DBW to delay the onset of engine torque...

Do you suppose Toyota is listening...??

Or given that the engine "flare" issue seems to have more recently come about has Toyota already begun to use a variable displacement ATF pump but the firmware is not yet been quite correctly "tuned" toward having enough volume, pumping capacity, at all the "correct" times.

Does anyone have co-existence of the 3-4 shift engine flare problem and the engine/transaxle downshift delay/hesitation problem?

[SW03ES]

Bit into the marrow...??

Huh?!?

[wwest]

Bit into the marrow...??

Huh?!?

The "meat" of the bone is the marrow....

[wwest]

Possible method of avoiding downshift delays...

Higher octane allows the engine to operate in a Taller gear ratio at a low(er) RPM without "lugging", knock/ping.

So with a higher octane when you initially re-apply pressure to the gas pedal shortly after/during the lift-throttle upshift the transaxle may (more often) remain, briefly, in the "taller" gear ratio since the ECU "knows" that will not result in a seriously detrimental level of Knock/Ping. The ECU would therefore allow the DBW system to immediately begin raising engine RPM, generating additional drive torque, as a result of the new, re-applied, gas pedal pressure.

So now the engine RPM is no longer at idle and should you continue to increase the pressure on the gas pedal such that a downshift is required to keep the engine in a proper, non-lugging, operating range there is now much more likelihood that there will be be enough ATF pump pressure/flow volume to accommodate the upcoming downshift.

The above might also be an indication that a fairly s..l...o....w re-application of pressure to the gas pedal after a FULL lift-throttle event might often alleviate the downshift delay/hesitation regardless of octane. Whereas a quick/fast/heavy re-application would almost always result in a serious level of knock/ping absent an immediate downshift.

Counter-intuitive, huh..??

Go SLOW, to GO QUICKLY...!!

Okay...??

[SW03ES]

The "meat" of the bone is the marrow....

I understand that, I still have no idea what you're talking about...

[wwest]

:whistles:

it's like a dog with a bone. . . . . . . . . .just won't let go.

[rickshobbies]

I put this in another thread I had going but since this is stickied, I thought I'd put it here in case it helps someone on day.

I took it to the dealer today for maintenance and asked them to check to see if the car had the flash. When I came to pick the car up, they told me they had flashed it. As it turns out, I had the non "R" version of the flash and they said that they when they see these they update them to the "R" automatically. I asked why and he just said that that's what Lexus wants them to do. He also said that it addresses the problem that I was experiencing but it doesn't eliminate it.

So, I figured I would report what I experienced since I am now part of the flash club (that sounds bad somehow). Basically, my problem with the rolling stop and acceleration jerk is actually noticably better. It's not gone, but it's better. Otherwise, the tranny shifts smooth but I notice that it definately wants more r's from the engine before it shifts. What it did fix is something I didn't like but didn't really think of a problem per se. The tranny stays in 2nd gear a lot longer. Where it used to stay in second for a very short time, it now wrings it out a bit more. Maybe just a little longer than I'd like, actually, but I can get used to it. The car feels much peppier but it's also not as quiet. That's something a lot of people mentioned in other posts.

So, we'll see how it goes. The Lexus mechanic did give me the story about the drive-by-wire thing being the issue. His opinion was that the cars needed a faster computer to process the sudden changes the driver makes quicker. He also mentioned the bit about needing premium fuel, but he said that is the case with and without the flash. He also cleared the "learned" data from the ECU. He said that the tranny absolutely freaked out with the flash using what was learned before and had to be completely wiped. Interesting.

Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback. At least I understand the limitations of the tranny now. Hopefully getting the updated flash will turn out to be a good thing and at least better than with the first version of the flash that the car had.

[wwest]

I can't think of any easy way to prevent the upshifting upon lift throttle but if enough folks are interested we could come up with a "warning", LOUD Beep-Beep-Beep, when the throttle servomotor is not following the accelerator pedal positioning as quickly, as responsively, as "normal".

[logic]

The 5 speed transmission on my new '03 seems a little strange. If I drive about 35mph and then slow down to about 5mph and than try to accelerate there is a hesitation. It's as if the transmission can not decide on what gear to go into. When it finally does there's a slight lurch forward. Can this be adjusted?

Alan

Clean your throttle body and change the gas filter, also check tranny fluid level. Do not touch or remove any sensors on the throttle body...Happy trails.

[wwest]

The 5 speed transmission on my new '03 seems a little strange. If I drive about 35mph and then slow down to about 5mph and than try to accelerate there is a hesitation. It's as if the transmission can not decide on what gear to go into. When it finally does there's a slight lurch forward. Can this be adjusted?

Alan

Clean your throttle body and change the gas filter, also check tranny fluid level. Do not touch or remove any sensors on the throttle body...Happy trails.

SOP, Standard Operating Procedure...

Operating as designed.

Read the TSB issued for your car.

[amf1932]

The 5 speed transmission on my new '03 seems a little strange. If I drive about 35mph and then slow down to about 5mph and than try to accelerate there is a hesitation. It's as if the transmission can not decide on what gear to go into. When it finally does there's a slight lurch forward. Can this be adjusted?

Alan

Clean your throttle body and change the gas filter, also check tranny fluid level. Do not touch or remove any sensors on the throttle body...Happy trails.

Did you, by any chance notice that you responded to a post that was made on 'May 20 2003, 08:45 PM'!!!

I don't own that car anymore, and besides there have been 643 replies since then!!! You should read before you post!!! Your suggestions have absolutely nothing to do with the transmission operation on a "BRAND NEW CAR"!! :chairshot:

[dbj]

Anyone driving a 330 '06 with transmission problems? My wife has an early 06 and her complaints are similar to what I've seen posted in this thread. It's been into the dealer a few times with much disbelief on their part, "never heard of anyone complaining about the transmission in this car..." Bottom line, she hates the car and I see this becoming very expensive. Any advice, help, suggestions appreciated. Thanks dbj

[X72]

Anyone driving a 330 '06 with transmission problems? My wife has an early 06 and her complaints are similar to what I've seen posted in this thread. It's been into the dealer a few times with much disbelief on their part, "never heard of anyone complaining about the transmission in this car..." Bottom line, she hates the car and I see this becoming very expensive. Any advice, help, suggestions appreciated. Thanks dbj

We have an 03 ES300 and an 05 ES330. Both transmissions perform similarly. I drive the 03 and have adapted to the car, but that doesn't mean I like the transmission. If your wife already has her mind set on another car, you are probably sunk with a depreciation hit when you trade this car in sooner than later.

Have her try driving the car around in 4th gear when around town instead of D to see if that is enough to pacify her. What is her specific complaint about the car?

[Firewalker]

You know, I have a 2002 Lexus ES300, I can make my car do the hesitation thing, but it simply does not happen on a regular basis, enough to complain? No. I know its very late in the posting, my 2 cents is, this is a great car, with a much better than average resale value, exceptional longevity records etc. It is not difficult to go to any car forum and find a problem that is unaddressed by the automaker or reported by a few hundred owners, I am not making light of this issue, rather I am asserting that this is a great car, I love driving it and feel confident that she and I will have many years together. So for any potential Lexus buyers out there reading these forums to base a buying decision on, buy it, drive it.....enjoy it.

[amf1932]

You know, I have a 2002 Lexus ES300, I can make my car do the hesitation thing, but it simply does not happen on a regular basis, enough to complain? No. I know its very late in the posting, my 2 cents is, this is a great car, with a much better than average resale value, exceptional longevity records etc. It is not difficult to go to any car forum and find a problem that is unaddressed by the automaker or reported by a few hundred owners, I am not making light of this issue, rather I am asserting that this is a great car, I love driving it and feel confident that she and I will have many years together. So for any potential Lexus buyers out there reading these forums to base a buying decision on, buy it, drive it.....enjoy it.

I'm happy you're happy with your car and adjusted your driving habits to the transmission quirks, but I, for one didn't want to deal with this. I started this thread in the Spring of 2003 and finally decided in the Spring of 2006 to trade in this car for an '07 ES350....w/a new 6 speed transmission! I am now completely satisfied with the operation of this new car. You can't say I didn't try every conceivable method to be happy with the '03 ES300, but I did! I have spoken to 100's of owners of the '02 thru '06 ES's and the vast majority were definitely NOT happy with this transmission. Some have even tried to start a class action suit against Lexus, and some have even brought this to court as individuals, and some were successful in Lexus giving them buybacks.

[TA8575]

I have an 04 330 and it does the same thing. When I brought it in for routine service. I asked the service advisor about this problem. His answer to me was "That is common with the 04" I then said well my mother in law has an 02 and sister in law has an 06 and they do the same thing. He pretty much had no clue on what to say except that Lexus continually comes out with updates and they are not sure how to fix the problem right now. I then told him if that was the case I am sure I will not buy another Lexus until the problem is corrected. Needless to say he didn't really care. I guess there motto is "We are Lexus, we don't have to care" or is it "Lexus, small enough to screw you, large enough not to care"