02-06 Transmission hesitation problems

[steviej]

I just got back from Scottsdale, AZ for a little vacation. I traveled all around with a Hertz rental, a 2005 Hyundai Sonata. This car was equipped with a V6, 4-Speed SHIFTRONIC(like an autostick) transmission, and I must say I was very impressed with the performance of this under $20K automobile. Up and down the mountains it went with flawless, smooth shifting in ALL types of circumstances......and NO rattles....a very quiet car!

Now, I'm not trying to compare it to the luxury of an ES, but how come Hyundai can produce a car with a beautiful tranny that responds to your every whim, for a lot less money than I suppose Lexus spent on their dog of a tranny?

I don't want to hear about ULEV standards, and electronic throttle that's incorporated in the Lexus! All I know is, I wish I could switch out my Lexus transmission for the Hyundai's and then I'd be completely happy with my Lexus.

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Alan, then your question is totally rhetorical.

My cousin just bought a 2005 Honda Accord 4 cyl. I got to drive it at Xmas. I was a little suprised that it too demostrated a lag upon hard acceleration.

steviej

[amf1932]

Yes Steve, I realize that it's rhetorical, but I had to unload a bit 'cause I found this 'cheapy' auto rentals performance much more satisfying, since the accelerator followed my input perfectly. This is how my '94ES worked, always, so I am still disappointed when driving my '03ES 300, or for that matter the ES330's (about 10 different 330's) that did not respond like I expected.

Believe me, I love the newest technolgies, electronic throttle et all, but not at the sake of reduced performance such as Lexus has incorporated in their models. They had a good thing going on the earlier models, so I am kinda disenchanted with the direction that Lexus has taken. It's overkill as far as I'm concerned!

[SW03ES]

That is the reason why the Hyundai was smooth though, it has no electronic throttle. Thats why the Accord had the lag too...

Its not just the direction Lexus has taken, its the direction everyone is taking. The only reason that Hyundai doesn't have an e-throttle is that they're too expensive. Why the industry has embraced this technology despite its performance drawbacks I don't know, but it probably has something to do with emissions.

[kryong]

Hm.. It seems like they finally recognized the problem "officially", and looking into the problem internally. Hopefully, they would solve/propose a solution.

http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm

[khhoang]

Hm.. It seems like they finally recognized the problem "officially", and looking into the problem internally. Hopefully, they would solve/propose a solution.

http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm

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sometimes it takes the local media involvment to make things happen. maybe the consumers can get better and faster results rather than just simply voicing our opinions and concerns to the officials at Lexus. i wonder how many other Don Hammonds (not to mention future Lexus buyers) are out there who is interested in reading this thread and reporting on the problem..

"(Don Hammonds can be reached at dhammonds@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1538.)"

[bgut1]

Could you be more specific on what she should be doing during the test drive to see if that particular ES had any of the tranny problems?

Try this:

Test 1

1- Drive at a normal speed

2- Take your foot off the accelerator(as if you're in stop & go traffic)

3- When the car decelerates to about 2 mph or lower, press the accelerator normally(not flooring it), and see if the car goes into a lower gear immediately, or it hunts for a gear to go into and then lurches forward.

Test 2

1- Drive at approximately 40 mph.

2- Floor accelerator quickly(as if you need to pass another car in a hazardous situation in a hurry).

3- Check that the car goes into a lower gear immediately or there is a rise in engine rpm's while the car is figuring out what gear to go into. This is the hesitation that we're talking about.

This is another test where this car fails miserably.

There are ways to overcome these problems by driving in a certain manner, but in certain cases you don't have the time or wherewithal to concentrate on "nursing" this weird transmission shifting behavior.

←

Just purchased a 2005 ES330. To be completely honest, all these reports had me scared to pull the trigger. I decided to go ahead with the purchase as I've read some posts (primarily on edmunds) that the lag did not exist on the 05's. I'm here to say that I don't think I have this problem with my car. The reason I'm not sure as you guys have me so worked up on what is or isn't the problem I can't tell. I have tried the above 2 tests (gun it from 2 mph and from 40 mph) without incident (unless it develops later). I also tried gunning the car from a complete stop also without problem. The only thing I have noticed is that from around 20 mph if I press hard on the gas I see the tach needle shoot up and it takes the car a little bit of time to start moving. I don't really think this is a problem nor see situations where this could be a problem. I would like your opinion.

[steviej]

bgut1,

if you do not notice anything, then you should just sit back, relax and enjoy the hell out of your new ride.

Welcome to the club.

The last hesitation scenario that you type of with the tach going very high before your speed changes is the major hesitation that we speak of. Try this when you are cruising in 5th gear and you are traveling at over 40mph. See how long it takes you to downshift and get moving faster. Now picture changing lanes and a big semi coming down on your butt. That is where the hesitation scares some people and for good reason.

steviej

[bgut1]

bgut1,

if you do not notice anything, then you should just sit back, relax and enjoy the hell out of your new ride.

Welcome to the club.

The last hesitation scenario that you type of with the tach going very high before your speed changes is the major hesitation that we speak of.  Try this when you are cruising in 5th gear and you are traveling at over 40mph.  See how long it takes you to downshift and get moving faster.   Now picture changing lanes and a big semi coming down on your butt.  That is where the hesitation scares some people and for good reason.

steviej

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Hi Steviej. Thanks for the welcome. I'm a little confused by your response. Are you saying what I noted about the 20 mph scenario as being hesitation? Because I don't experience the problem from either a complete stop or at 40 mph or higher. If I don't experience any hesitation after 40 mph does that mean i don't have the heistation issue?

[amf1932]

Let's assume that you're traveling at a steady 40mph, and then you want to overtake a slower vehicle. If you tromp on the accelerator, quickly,(NOT a gradual application), does your car go into a lower gear immediately, or does the RPM's rise before it goes into that gear? That's what we are talking about. This fraction of a second of hesitation can be very important when your increase of speed has to be immediate.

[bgut1]

Let's assume that you're traveling at a steady 40mph, and then you want to overtake a slower vehicle. If you tromp on the accelerator, quickly,(NOT a gradual application), does your car go into a lower gear immediately, or does the RPM's rise before it goes into that gear? That's what we are talking about. This fraction of a second of hesitation can be very important when your increase of speed has to be immediate.

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I tried that scenario a couple of times last night. I experienced no delay or heistation, drop out, or whatever you call it. The car responded quickly when I applied the gas. If this is what you characterize as the "hesitation" then i don't have it. What I did notice, a thought was just indicative of this type of car, was a bit of time it took to move starting from 20 mph. Thanks for your reply.

[jragosta]

As I've explained earlier, one of my biggest complaints about the way Lexus is handling this is their insistence that the car operates as designed.

Now, if they said 'some drivers experience a hesitatation but we don't think it's severe enough to cause a safety issue', that would be better. Insisting that the car is DESIGNED to have a huge lag for many drivers is just stupid.

WHy do I bring it up now? I just took my car in for its 20,000 mile service and asked them to look at a few other things. One of them is an item I've complained about at least 5 times. I like my seat all the way back. I move it back and program the memory to stay there. After my wife drives the car (she moves the seat way forward), I hit the memory button to return the seat to the furthest back position - but it doesn't go all the way back. It stops about an inch short. I've taken it in 5 times and they always say they can't duplicate it.

Today, the service manager said 'oh, yes, we've seen that problem before and it's designed that way'. WTF!!! They designed it to go to a different position than it was programmed? And if it was designed that way, why didn't they tell me that the first 5 times?

Again, an honest answer would have been 'because of the tolerances, it's not unusual to get an error of 1" or so in the memory settings, but we have never found a way to avoid that' or something like that. Telling me time after time that I'm imagining the problem is the worst possible customer service.

I'm even more convinced that this is my last Lexus. I just talked someone else out of buying one today.

[SW03ES]

Thats just how dealerships are, you shouldn't blame Lexus the car company. What you should do is complain to Lexus customer care and tell them exactly what you just told us. You're going to have the same experience at car dealerships for all different marques. Pop around other car make's boards, everyone complains about uncooperative dealers and people telling them things are "operating as designed" its the go-to "get them out of my office" line and they use it because for MOST customers it works.

If you buy another make expecting to never hear those words again you're going to be dissapointed. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy another Lexus but I'm just suggesting, as someone who works with dealership service departments for a living, don't make that the reason not to. I've heard customers complain about this from Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda you name it.

[jragosta]

Thats just how dealerships are, you shouldn't blame Lexus the car company. What you should do is complain to Lexus customer care and tell them exactly what you just told us. You're going to have the same experience at car dealerships for all different marques. Pop around other car make's boards, everyone complains about uncooperative dealers and people telling them things are "operating as designed" its the go-to "get them out of my office" line and they use it because for MOST customers it works.

If you buy another make expecting to never hear those words again you're going to be dissapointed. I'm not trying to persuade you to buy another Lexus but I'm just suggesting, as someone who works with dealership service departments for a living, don't make that the reason not to. I've heard customers complain about this from Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda you name it.

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I might buy what you're saying but it IS Lexus Customer Care that's saying that the transmission is operating as designed. I've talked with people at all levels of Lexus and they all say that the car is suppsed to drive the way it does. (Of course, that's nonsnese - I can't believe that they really believe it's supposed to lurch like an arthritic drunk). So it DOES appear to be the Lexus policy to insist that any problem with the car is simply the car operating as designed.

[SW03ES]

But all companies are like that, its simply covering their own asses.

In a way if the problem is what I suspect then they're telling the truth, the car is operating as designed if the drive by wire system is the culprit.

Again, I'm not justifying their actions I'm just saying this behavior is absolutely not unique to Lexus.

That said I am beginning to feel that Lexus is getting a little content in their complacency, something that happened to BMW and Mercedes before Lexus came around. I've seen a marked drop in product quality and service quality in the past few years. I'm thinking next time I might try a BMW because of their desire to show that they can make as quality an automobile as Lexus, or maybe the new Cadillac STS because of everything they've got riding on it. You can bet Cadillac's not going to tell people who just came over from Lexus, BMW or Mercedes the car is "operating as designed".

[jragosta]

But all companies are like that, its simply covering their own asses.

In a way if the problem is what I suspect then they're telling the truth, the car is operating as designed if the drive by wire system is the culprit.

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Sorry, I don't buy that.

For some signficant percentage of drivers, there's a serious problem.

When I try to accelerate onto a freeway, I have a serious delay more than half the time. The delay is often enough to have me worried about getting rear-ended.

I don't believe the car was designed to have a big delay when you step on the gas.

You could say that the car meets their design criteria, but that the design criteria are incorrect - since they cause a bad result. But that's not the same as saying it's operating as designed.

[SW03ES]

Well, thats an argument of semantics.

[jragosta]

Well, thats an argument of semantics.

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It's not semantics at all.

Saying it meets their design criteria means that they intended for it to act that way.

Saying that they set design criteria and failed to meet them says that they didn't intend for the car to lurch or didn't intend for the seat memory to end up in the wrong place, but due to a design or manufacturing flaw, that's the way it ended up.

It's obvious why they chose the former - it's just absurd for them to pretend that that was the behavior they were shooting for.

[SW03ES]

I totally agree with you, I'm just presenting it from their perspective, you can bet that response is closely tailored by their lawyers.

All in all the practice of telling customers something is operating as designed is an extremely poor business practice from a PR standpoint and I try to communicate that to my clients but its difficult because thats the legally safe response. You're right, customers who have been long labored by problems like these would much rather hear "This is a problem with the transmission, DBW, whatever, I'm extremely sorry but there isn't anything we can do" than "thats operating as its designed" which makes the customer feel like an idiot, its like saying "You idiot, why don't you like our perfectly engineered system?". Its just admitting fault in a situation like this is not smart from a legal or liability standpoint. If dealers tell customers theres a problem then that gives fuel for class action lawsuits etc, if you were a lawyer and Lexus was your client you'd tell them the same thing.

Its not right, but its business.

[jragosta]

I totally agree with you, I'm just presenting it from their perspective, you can bet that response is closely tailored by their lawyers.

All in all the practice of telling customers something is operating as designed is an extremely poor business practice from a PR standpoint and I try to communicate that to my clients but its difficult because thats the legally safe response. You're right, customers who have been long labored by problems like these would much rather hear "This is a problem with the transmission, DBW, whatever, I'm extremely sorry but there isn't anything we can do" than "thats operating as its designed" which makes the customer feel like an idiot, its like saying "You idiot, why don't you like our perfectly engineered system?". Its just admitting fault in a situation like this is not smart from a legal or liability standpoint. If dealers tell customers theres a problem then that gives fuel for class action lawsuits etc, if you were a lawyer and Lexus was your client you'd tell them the same thing.

Its not right, but its business.

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Actually, we DO face that problem. Instead of the 'operating as designed' line, we say 'we designed the product with an adequate cushion of safety. Every manufacturing process has a range of acceptable results. Even though your product does not match the exact middle of the range, it is well within the range of safe and acceptable parameters.'

No liability problems and no dishonesty, either. And no telling your customers that they're idiots.

[SW03ES]

That would be a much better way of handling it I agree.

[skremese]

My wife and I purchased a 2005 Lexus ES330 on Oct 31, 2004. The car started exhibiting this behavior almost immediately. I recently brought it to the dealer (for the 5000 mile service) and cited this behavior as something they should look at and fix. Before I was even finished explaining the scenario in which it happens I was listening to an explanation of how "drive by wire" causes this and I could minimze this behavior by using premium fuel. I asked if they could test try anyway and try to fix - they claim they drove it (no evidence as the in/out mileage is exactly the same 4999) and claim it drives per design specs. So - I lodged a complaint with Lexus and with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. I urge all owners to do the same at with Lexus (1-800-255-3987, prompt #4) and the NHTSA at this url: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/.

[SW03ES]

Again though, did you not drive the car before you bought it?!?

I don't understand why all these people are having these problems after they've bought the car, doesn't anyone test drive cars before they buy them? I drove an ES for a whole weekend before I bought mine, as I did with each of the competition I was looking at. I felt the throttle lag right off the bat but I'm familliar with Lexus and knew they all drove that way.

[jragosta]

Again though, did you not drive the car before you bought it?!?

I don't understand why all these people are having these problems after they've bought the car, doesn't anyone test drive cars before they buy them? I drove an ES for a whole weekend before I bought mine, as I did with each of the competition I was looking at. I felt the throttle lag right off the bat but I'm familliar with Lexus and knew they all drove that way.

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The problem is that the transmission learns your driving style. It's not going to adapt in a weekend of driving. Mine was OK for the first thousand miles or so and then got bad. After they reset the transmission, it was OK again for a thousand miles or so.

A test drive doesn't excuse Lexus from having a lousy transmission/engine combo.

[amf1932]

Again though, did you not drive the car before you bought it?!?

I didn't test drive my '03 before I bought it. I assumed the performance, and transmission would be at least as good as the '94ES that I traded in. Driving my new car home I was very disappointed. and to this day, I still am!

You know the adage, "When you assume, you make an !Removed! out of you and me"

[skremese]

Yes, absolutely we drove the car, a couple ES330's on the lot and the final one they found in the color my wife wanted. Problem is no dealer, at least here in California, will let you spend any significant amount of time with the car (congrats to you at being able to spend an entire weekend with it - this is out of the question here, at least with the local dealers in Sacramento). Test drives are usually < 20 miles and in that you have to fit in highway and surface street time, testing of things in the car, etc.

Additionally, it's a lot easier to detect something is wrong after you've felt it a few times.

BTW - I do take offense at this kind of question. I don't see how anyone who's felt this kind of problem with the ES3x0 can blame the consumer. This is by far the worst problem I've ever had in any car and I've owned a bunch and others with perfectly smooth drive by wire systems. When I called Lexus about this problem yesterday they acknowledged the symptom but stated this is within normal design specs. When I asked what if the design specs are faulty they said they'd make improvement in future designs. I never expected this kind of treatment from a luxury car brand. I find it amazing they don't fix this as it really does have the potential to be a huge public relations nightmare. We just need to get the word out!

-Steve