2002 Es300 Tranny - To Flash Or Not To Flash?

[rickshobbies]

I have a 2002 ES300. I bought it used with 44k miles on it. I love the car, but I notice that when driving 5 to 10 mph and I step on the gas even lightly, it tends to jerk. I don't know if it's downshifting or what, but it's nice and smooth any other time.

It looks like the flash would address this, but it sounds like a lot of you are seeing bad side effects. I'm not an agressive driver and don't race the car or anything. It's just that when you have passengers and you're trying to give them a nice smooth ride in the car, it's a little odd to see their heads jerk back when you're drivng so slow.

It happens in bumper to bumper traffic or when slowing to make a turn, etc.

So, should I flash it or just leave well enough alone?

Rick

[amf1932]

I have a 2002 ES300. I bought it used with 44k miles on it. I love the car, but I notice that when driving 5 to 10 mph and I step on the gas even lightly, it tends to jerk. I don't know if it's downshifting or what, but it's nice and smooth any other time.

It looks like the flash would address this, but it sounds like a lot of you are seeing bad side effects. I'm not an agressive driver and don't race the car or anything. It's just that when you have passengers and you're trying to give them a nice smooth ride in the car, it's a little odd to see their heads jerk back when you're drivng so slow.

It happens in bumper to bumper traffic or when slowing to make a turn, etc.

So, should I flash it or just leave well enough alone?

Rick

I say, DON'T reflash it! The only way I knew how to eliminate the jerkiness and hesitation was to trade the car in for an ES350! Look for my previous posts on this subject that started in the Spring of 2003.

Here's a link> http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...?showtopic=3584

[Toysrme]

The jerkyness isn't the programming. The transmission not shifting is the programming. If it's not shifting flash it. if it is shifting, check the engine mounts. Especially the lateral one.

[amf1932]

The jerkyness isn't the programming. The transmission not shifting is the programming. If it's not shifting flash it. if it is shifting, check the engine mounts. Especially the lateral one.

I doubt whether this problem has anything to do with defective motor mounts, since this was an on going problem in the '02 thru '06 ES's! Example: From the first day I drove my brand new '03 ES out of the dealer I knew that something was f**ked up with this tranny, and after three years and two reflashes it still wasn't right!

[SW03ES]

No, this is just a characteristic of the transmission. I found mine shifted better after the flashm but that lag is still there. I still firmly believe that its the DBW system. The 350s I've driven still do it, its just much less obtrusive.

You CAN get used to it and adapt your driving around it. Only once in a very great while does mine ever lag on me anymore.

[rickshobbies]

The jerkyness isn't the programming. The transmission not shifting is the programming. If it's not shifting flash it. if it is shifting, check the engine mounts. Especially the lateral one.

I doubt whether this problem has anything to do with defective motor mounts, since this was an on going problem in the '02 thru '06 ES's! Example: From the first day I drove my brand new '03 ES out of the dealer I knew that something was f**ked up with this tranny, and after three years and two reflashes it still wasn't right!

I've read the thread in the link referenced above and it's still not really clear to me if I should get the flash done or not. It sounds like it does fix some of the issues but not others. So far, the issues that it doesn't fix are issues that I don't have right now (the 40mph gear hunting and going to redline if floored thing).

What I want to get rid of is the issue where if I slow down to about 10mph going around a turn, then apply the gas, the car jerks. It feels like it downshifts then upshifts real fast or something. We are talking easing the throttle here.

If the only side effect is that the tranny will shift at a higher RPM and require Premium fuel, I am OK with that. But if it introduces another bad characteristic in order to fix the one I have, then perhaps it's not such a good idea.

Any more thoughts as to what I should do in my case, since I only seem to have the one problem?

Rick

[SW03ES]

My suggestion? Learn to drive around it. I've learned under what conditions the car will exhibit that lag and if you depress the gas pedal slightly and pause for a half second before applying throttle, the car will not hesitate. This has become automatic for me and the issue is no longer a problem.

[amf1932]

I've read the thread in the link referenced above and it's still not really clear to me if I should get the flash done or not. It sounds like it does fix some of the issues but not others. So far, the issues that it doesn't fix are issues that I don't have right now (the 40mph gear hunting and going to redline if floored thing).

What I want to get rid of is the issue where if I slow down to about 10mph going around a turn, then apply the gas, the car jerks. It feels like it downshifts then upshifts real fast or something. We are talking easing the throttle here.

If the only side effect is that the tranny will shift at a higher RPM and require Premium fuel, I am OK with that. But if it introduces another bad characteristic in order to fix the one I have, then perhaps it's not such a good idea.

Any more thoughts as to what I should do in my case, since I only seem to have the one problem?

Rick

Just remember that after you have it flashed you can't go back to the previous ECU program! The people that have complained about the slowing down and then trying to accelerate smoothly have found that the flash didn't help that problem at all! I've found that after the final flash on my '03 ES: The car lost the quietness when accelerating normally, since the RPM's to upshift were much higher as indicated on the tachometer, and the only way you could force the transmission to upshift was to slightly take your foot off the accelerator pedal. I also found that, my gas mileage was lower.....whether using Regular or Premium fuel. On top of this I found out from reliable sources that the car no longer would meet ULEV specifications, and the reason that Lexus developed the final flash was to try to satisfy their customers, rather then to address this problem correctly. I believe this, since the ES350 6 speed automatic exhibited none of the problems of the former generation ES's. I was so frustrated after suffering for 3 years of ownership of my '03 because of this problem, that I traded it in....with only 16K miles.

P.S. Here's the first post that I made about this problem in May,2003.......sound familiar? >http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...c=3584&st=0

[rickshobbies]

I've read the thread in the link referenced above and it's still not really clear to me if I should get the flash done or not. It sounds like it does fix some of the issues but not others. So far, the issues that it doesn't fix are issues that I don't have right now (the 40mph gear hunting and going to redline if floored thing).

What I want to get rid of is the issue where if I slow down to about 10mph going around a turn, then apply the gas, the car jerks. It feels like it downshifts then upshifts real fast or something. We are talking easing the throttle here.

If the only side effect is that the tranny will shift at a higher RPM and require Premium fuel, I am OK with that. But if it introduces another bad characteristic in order to fix the one I have, then perhaps it's not such a good idea.

Any more thoughts as to what I should do in my case, since I only seem to have the one problem?

Rick

Just remember that after you have it flashed you can't go back to the previous ECU program! The people that have complained about the slowing down and then trying to accelerate smoothly have found that the flash didn't help that problem at all! I've found that after the final flash on my '03 ES: The car lost the quietness when accelerating normally, since the RPM's to upshift were much higher as indicated on the tachometer, and the only way you could force the transmission to upshift was to slightly take your foot off the accelerator pedal. I also found that, my gas mileage was lower.....whether using Regular or Premium fuel. On top of this I found out from reliable sources that the car no longer would meet ULEV specifications, and the reason that Lexus developed the final flash was to try to satisfy their customers, rather then to address this problem correctly. I believe this, since the ES350 6 speed automatic exhibited none of the problems of the former generation ES's. I was so frustrated after suffering for 3 years of ownership of my '03 because of this problem, that I traded it in....with only 16K miles.

P.S. Here's the first post that I made about this problem in May,2003.......sound familiar? >http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index...c=3584&st=0

Yeah, I read that as well. It sounds like I should leave well enough alone then. Thanks a ton for the feedback on this.

I was going to have the dealer look at one other thing, but it could just be a characteristic of the car. It seems that when starting the car, you need to let the starter crank a little longer than other cars I've owned. It always starts and the starter is running with a strong crank (good battery) but you just have to hold the starter on a couple seconds longer than say, my Acura MDX. Its my first Lexus, so this may just be normal for my car. Any thoughts here?

Regards,

Rick

[SW03ES]

That hasn't been my experience...

[rickshobbies]

Yeah, I read that as well. It sounds like I should leave well enough alone then. Thanks a ton for the feedback on this.

I was going to have the dealer look at one other thing, but it could just be a characteristic of the car. It seems that when starting the car, you need to let the starter crank a little longer than other cars I've owned. It always starts and the starter is running with a strong crank (good battery) but you just have to hold the starter on a couple seconds longer than say, my Acura MDX. Its my first Lexus, so this may just be normal for my car. Any thoughts here?

Regards,

Rick

Actually, let me be more specific about the starter. My Acura will start almost as soon as the starter kicks over. This is what I have been used to with other cars as well. The Lexus takes about 1.5 to 2 seconds of starter time before it starts. It doesn't sound like much and I'm getting used to it, but it's enough to be noticable. Of course, it doesn't help that you don't get your gauge needles until the car starts either.

[rickshobbies]

My suggestion? Learn to drive around it. I've learned under what conditions the car will exhibit that lag and if you depress the gas pedal slightly and pause for a half second before applying throttle, the car will not hesitate. This has become automatic for me and the issue is no longer a problem.

In the thread you told me about, you described my problem exactly:

Test 1

1- Drive at a normal speed

2- Take your foot off the accelerator(as if you're in stop & go traffic)

3- When the car decelerates to about 2 mph or lower, press the accelerator normally(not flooring it), and see if the car goes into a lower gear immediately, or it hunts for a gear to go into and then lurches forward.

So, I take it that even the latest iteration of the flash doesn't address this? Supposedly there was a newer version released in 2005. This is the only problem I've noticed (and it's a big one for me as I am a stickler for smooth driving) and if it doesn't fix this, then there is no point.

Too bad, really. Such a nice care otherwise.

Thanks for the info,

Rick

[steviej]

I found the reflash gave me a car with lesser of several evils. I adapted to the cars quirks and was able to accelerate and shift smoothly in all anticipated conditions. The original programming has several things I absolutely hated, the high revs and no motion upon flooring it and the gear hunting at 40 mph. The reflash eliminated those but left me with a tranny that stays in second for a very very short time, an an occasional buck when slowing from 40 to 5mph and then speeding up again (never coming to a stop). I'd take the reflash over the orginal programming anyday.

I would like to do what amf1932 did and get a new car, but budgetarily, it ain't in the picture for me at this point, so the reflash won out.

Overall, I am satisfied with it. I did have to adapt again a little, but like I said, it left me with a tranny that I like better than the original.

steviej

PS, here is a last thought. Do you know anyone around you with a 2002-2003 ES that had the reflash? Maybe you could drive their reflashed ES for an hour or so and see which you like better. Granted, the other car will have learned the other driver's habits, but it is better than not driving a reflashed car at all.

Where do you live? you can come drive mine.

Addendum:

hmmm, LA, huh? I guess driving mine is a little out of the question.

[rickshobbies]

I found the reflash gave me a car with lesser of several evils. I adapted to the cars quirks and was able to accelerate and shift smoothly in all anticipated conditions. The original programming has several things I absolutely hated, the high revs and no motion upon flooring it and the gear hunting at 40 mph. The reflash eliminated those but left me with a tranny that stays in second for a very very short time, an an occasional buck when slowing from 40 to 5mph and then speeding up again (never coming to a stop). I'd take the reflash over the orginal programming anyday.

I would like to do what amf1932 did and get a new car, but budgetarily, it ain't in the picture for me at this point, so the reflash won out.

Overall, I am satisfied with it. I did have to adapt again a little, but like I said, it left me with a tranny that I like better than the original.

steviej

PS, here is a last thought. Do you know anyone around you with a 2002-2003 ES that had the reflash? Maybe you could drive their reflashed ES for an hour or so and see which you like better. Granted, the other car will have learned the other driver's habits, but it is better than not driving a reflashed car at all.

Where do you live? you can come drive mine.

Addendum:

hmmm, LA, huh? I guess driving mine is a little out of the question.

Yeah, I really don't know anyone else with an ES300. Thanks for the offer, though.

All I know is that having it buck when slowing to around 5mph is really starting to annoy me. If the flash would fix that, I'd really consider it. Did it address that for you? It almost seems like there is a variance in the cars out there are some people report good results while others report poor results. My appointment is scheduled for Monday, so I am hoping to make a sound decision before then.

I also see references to different versions on this flash. It sounds like there have been several updates, the newest I've found in 2005. Any idea where they are at now that it's 2006?

Rick

[steviej]

All I know is that having it buck when slowing to around 5mph is really starting to annoy me. If the flash would fix that, I'd really consider it. Did it address that for you? It almost seems like there is a variance in the cars out there are some people report good results while others report poor results. My appointment is scheduled for Monday, so I am hoping to make a sound decision before then.

I also see references to different versions on this flash. It sounds like there have been several updates, the newest I've found in 2005. Any idea where they are at now that it's 2006?

Rick

Rick,

I very rarely get the bucking anymore, because I have taylored my style to drive effectively/efficiently and swiftly without achieving the buck. The variance is the individual driving the reflashed vehicles. Lexus nor any other car manufacturer cannot control that variable.

There were/are only two reflash versions. The original reflash came out August 3, 2003 (TC004-03) and then the second attempt that came out in April 2005 (TC004-03R). The R is for REVISED. Lexus has most likely abandoned any more attempts due to the partial success of the 4/05 reflash and the release of the new 6 speed tranny with the 07ES.

steviej

[rickshobbies]

All I know is that having it buck when slowing to around 5mph is really starting to annoy me. If the flash would fix that, I'd really consider it. Did it address that for you? It almost seems like there is a variance in the cars out there are some people report good results while others report poor results. My appointment is scheduled for Monday, so I am hoping to make a sound decision before then.

I also see references to different versions on this flash. It sounds like there have been several updates, the newest I've found in 2005. Any idea where they are at now that it's 2006?

Rick

Rick,

I very rarely get the bucking anymore, because I have taylored my style to drive effectively/efficiently and swiftly without achieving the buck. The variance is the individual driving the reflashed vehicles. Lexus nor any other car manufacturer cannot control that variable.

There were/are only two reflash versions. The original reflash came out August 3, 2003 (TC004-03) and then the second attempt that came out in April 2005 (TC004-03R). The R is for REVISED. Lexus has most likely abandoned any more attempts due to the partial success of the 4/05 reflash and the release of the new 6 speed tranny with the 07ES.

steviej

So would you say that the flash helped the bucking problem I am talking about, or is it all just in your learned driving technique?

After reading all of the posts, it's hard to tell what actually got fixed and what the new flash did / caused. It would be great to see a pros and cons synopsis. Something that states what actually changes, good and bad, with the flash upgrade. There are posts that mention these things but is often not clear if what's being described is something new caused by the flash or simply something that it didn't address.

R

[steviej]

Rick, these are my findings and not necessarily be common to all reflash customers.

Reflash removes:

1. the high rev of the engine an what seemed like an endless hesitation when you are traveling at speeds in excess of 30mph and you mash the pedal to the floor. With the reflash, the high rev and long hesitation are gone. You mash the gas and the car shifts and accelerates appropriately. The hesitation is not gone, but is much less prominant that the original programing.

2. the shudder or joggle that you would feel when driving steady at 40 mph. The tranny seems to not be able to decide whether to be in 4th or 5th.

Reflash creates:

1 a buck or studder when slowing down to speeds less than 20 mph and then reaccelerating quickly. Its kind of like the tranny hasn't shifted to the lowest gear it wanted to and the ECU just told it so shift up again. Simple work around is to just anticipate your accelerations. The tricky place that this buck becomes apparent is when you execute a "rolling stop" or when coming up to a red light and it changes to green before you stop so you then press the gas heavily.

2. I find that when accelerating from a stop, it sounds like the tranny is slipping when shifting from 1st to second. It isn't but it sounds like it.

3. The duration that it stays in second gear is very short no matter the rate of acceleration.

Talk to your service manager. Since this reflash was for 02-05 ES, maybe they have a loaner or CPO car on the lot that has the reflash. Maybe you could take it for an hour to compare.

steviej

[SW03ES]

My experience mirrors steviej's precisely.

[rickshobbies]

This is my exact problem:

"Reflash creates:

1 a buck or studder when slowing down to speeds less than 20 mph and then reaccelerating quickly. Its kind of like the tranny hasn't shifted to the lowest gear it wanted to and the ECU just told it so shift up again. Simple work around is to just anticipate your accelerations. The tricky place that this buck becomes apparent is when you execute a "rolling stop" or when coming up to a red light and it changes to green before you stop so you then press the gas heavily.

2. I find that when accelerating from a stop, it sounds like the tranny is slipping when shifting from 1st to second. It isn't but it sounds like it."

So now I am wondering if my car already has the flash. If this wasn't a problem unless thhe flash was applied, then maybe it has. I looked under the hood for the sticker and found nothing. I asked the dealer to give me a print-out of any work that had been done though and there is no mention of anything other than the regular service intervals. Maybe I should request that they do a search with the VIN to determine if it had be done?

Rick

[rickshobbies]

This is my exact problem:

"Reflash creates:

1 a buck or studder when slowing down to speeds less than 20 mph and then reaccelerating quickly. Its kind of like the tranny hasn't shifted to the lowest gear it wanted to and the ECU just told it so shift up again. Simple work around is to just anticipate your accelerations. The tricky place that this buck becomes apparent is when you execute a "rolling stop" or when coming up to a red light and it changes to green before you stop so you then press the gas heavily.

2. I find that when accelerating from a stop, it sounds like the tranny is slipping when shifting from 1st to second. It isn't but it sounds like it."

So now I am wondering if my car already has the flash. If this wasn't a problem unless thhe flash was applied, then maybe it has. I looked under the hood for the sticker and found nothing. I asked the dealer to give me a print-out of any work that had been done though and there is no mention of anything other than the regular service intervals. Maybe I should request that they do a search with the VIN to determine if it had be done?

Rick

I called the dealer and they said they had to check it with a scan tool to determine if it has the flash or not. I guess I'll have to go in there regardless. If it doesn't have the flash, I will probably skip it but if it does, I want to make sure its at the "R" revision.

[rickshobbies]

This is my exact problem:

"Reflash creates:

1 a buck or studder when slowing down to speeds less than 20 mph and then reaccelerating quickly. Its kind of like the tranny hasn't shifted to the lowest gear it wanted to and the ECU just told it so shift up again. Simple work around is to just anticipate your accelerations. The tricky place that this buck becomes apparent is when you execute a "rolling stop" or when coming up to a red light and it changes to green before you stop so you then press the gas heavily.

2. I find that when accelerating from a stop, it sounds like the tranny is slipping when shifting from 1st to second. It isn't but it sounds like it."

So now I am wondering if my car already has the flash. If this wasn't a problem unless thhe flash was applied, then maybe it has. I looked under the hood for the sticker and found nothing. I asked the dealer to give me a print-out of any work that had been done though and there is no mention of anything other than the regular service intervals. Maybe I should request that they do a search with the VIN to determine if it had be done?

Rick

I called the dealer and they said they had to check it with a scan tool to determine if it has the flash or not. I guess I'll have to go in there regardless. If it doesn't have the flash, I will probably skip it but if it does, I want to make sure its at the "R" revision.

Well, I took it to the dealer today for maintenance and asked them to check to see if the car had the flash. When I came to pick the car up, they told me they had flashed it. As it turns out, I had the non "R" version of the flash and they said that they when they see these they update them to the "R" automatically. I asked why and he just said that that's what Lexus wants them to do. He also said that it addresses the problem that I was experiencing but it doesn't eliminate it.

So, I figured I would report what I experienced since I am now part of the flash club (that sounds bad somehow). Basically, my problem with the rolling stop and acceleration jerk is actually noticably better. It's not gone, but it's better. Otherwise, the tranny shifts smooth but I notice that it definately wants more r's from the engine before it shifts. What it did fix is something I didn't like but didn't really think of a problem per se. The tranny stays in 2nd gear a lot longer. Where it used to stay in second for a very short time, it now wrings it out a bit more. Maybe just a little longer than I'd like, actually, but I can get used to it. The car feels much peppier but it's also not as quiet. That's something a lot of people mentioned in other posts.

So, we'll see how it goes. The Lexus mechanic did give me the story about the drive-by-wire thing being the issue. His opinion was that the cars needed a faster computer to process the sudden changes the driver makes quicker. He also mentioned the bit about needing premium fuel, but he said that is the case with and without the flash. He also cleared the "learned" data from the ECU. He said that the tranny absolutely freaked out with the flash using what was learned before and had to be completely wiped. Interesting.

Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback. At least I understand the limitations of the tranny now. Hopefully getting the updated flash will turn out to be a good thing and at least better than with the first version of the flash that the car had.

R

[steviej]

So, we'll see how it goes. The Lexus mechanic did give me the story about the drive-by-wire thing being the issue. His opinion was that the cars needed a faster computer to process the sudden changes the driver makes quicker. He also mentioned the bit about needing premium fuel, but he said that is the case with and without the flash. He also cleared the "learned" data from the ECU. He said that the tranny absolutely freaked out with the flash using what was learned before and had to be completely wiped. Interesting.

another Lexus mechanic that is not quite in the know. regular/special/or premium unleaded does not matter. The flash will act the same in all grades of gas you are allowed to put in.

He had no choice but to clear the ECU of learned data. When the reflash is written to your chip, it automatically clears all resident programing. It will start the relearning process again.

Occassionally, I pull the negative battery cable to achieve the same outcome.

good luck.

steviej

[SW03ES]

Thats pretty close to my experience. I think you'll be happier with it now.

The Lexus mechanic did give me the story about the drive-by-wire thing being the issue. His opinion was that the cars needed a faster computer to process the sudden changes the driver makes quicker.

I REALLY think this is the root of the problem, since this particular problem is not at all isolated to this particular Lexus model or transmission and the problem only exists on cars with the drive by wire throttle.

Even the all new ES350 still has this lag in there, even though its a lot less noticable then on ours. Most cars I've driven with electronic throttles have this hesitation in varying degrees of severity.

[amf1932]

Thats pretty close to my experience. I think you'll be happier with it now.

The Lexus mechanic did give me the story about the drive-by-wire thing being the issue. His opinion was that the cars needed a faster computer to process the sudden changes the driver makes quicker.

I REALLY think this is the root of the problem, since this particular problem is not at all isolated to this particular Lexus model or transmission and the problem only exists on cars with the drive by wire throttle.

Even the all new ES350 still has this lag in there, even though its a lot less noticable then on ours. Most cars I've driven with electronic throttles have this hesitation in varying degrees of severity.

As you guys probably know, I traded in a 2003 ES mainly because of the shifting lag, plus other annoying characteristics of this transmission. My ES350 transmission on the other hand WITH an electronic throttle, shifts like a dream from any speed, whether slow or fast, upshifts and downshifts with virtually NO shifting lag, plus the car ALWAYS picks the proper gear, without a fuss, nor any kind of driver intervention........what I'm saying is I don't have to nurse this tranny to do what a transmission is supposed to do in the first place! Suffice it to say.......I'm completely happy with this new 6 speed transmission. Today I had a car full of passengers on a 75 mile trip through city and highway, and they couldn't get over how quiet, smooth, and comfortable this car is.....without a rattle anywhere. I absolutely love this car....it's a complete joy to drive. :)

[Toysrme]

Just tell people that ride with you you dropped a 350 in it & it's just all the torque steer you have now.