sahtt Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I have the front off the motor but am stuck. Please help me if you have any advice, I've searched three forums without a solid answer- I need to get the crank bolt and 2 cam pulleys off to replace the seals. They all have oil leaks as they were not changed at the 90k service, I now have 133k. I also need to get them back on. I can rent an electric air compressor but many people have told me it will not be able to get the nut on the crank pulley loose. I have a breaker bar etc. but do not know how to get the crank to not move while I put torque on it. Same applies to the cam pulleys. I've heard of jamming tools into the flywheel and all sorts of things, but nothing concrete that will solve my problem of getting the cam and crank pulleys on and off. I don't really want to get an electric air compressor for 50.00 [powered by my car battery] only to not be able to get the crank loose. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperopt Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I used air tools to remove crank & cam bolts in seconds on my LS' without issues. I wouldn't attempt TB job without air tools. Alternatively, you can use prethreaded holes on the pulleys to fasten tools to hold the pulleys still. Tip: Loosen the cam bolts before you remove the TB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 I used air tools to remove crank & cam bolts in seconds on my LS' without issues. I wouldn't attempt TB job without air tools. Alternatively, you can use prethreaded holes on the pulleys to fasten tools to hold the pulleys still. Tip: Loosen the cam bolts before you remove the TB. The only possibility of air tools is renting an electric unit and powering it with my car battery [or I'll need about 100ft of extension cords]. Without a compressor do you think it will be strong enough? Buying any tools to hold the pulleys in the prethreaded holes which I noticed will still be at least as much as renting the air compressor. So the air wrench is strong enough to loosen the bolt without messing up the timing or needing to hold the pulleys still? I really need to get this done I got it all tore down by early afternoon but it's been sitting like this for 2 days now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 Wel nevermind.. Harbor freight [nor does lowe's, nation's rent, home depot, etc.] does not have air tools for rent, even electric ones. I don't see how tons of people say they use a breaker bar yet no one says how they hold the pulley still. I've started to think very few of those people have actually attempted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsalih Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I just completed this last week. I jammed the end of a hard plastic screwdriver into one of the fly wheel holes and it worked great for both removal and installation of the crank bolt. By the way you will find that Haynes actually recommends this method too for many vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 no one says how they hold the pulley still. And even when they try to explain they still fail to explain exactly how to attach and use the pulley holding tool. Like recently I went to Autozone to rent a power steering pulley holding tool, but no one at the store could figure out how to attach the tool in a way that would hold the pulley still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 I just completed this last week. I jammed the end of a hard plastic screwdriver into one of the fly wheel holes and it worked great for both removal and installation of the crank bolt. By the way you will find that Haynes actually recommends this method too for many vehicles. Thanks for your advice. I did the same thing on my 5spd 300zx. How do you get to this on the LS400? Is there a flex-plate I can remove or what? I don't know how to get access to the flywheel easily. I had the transmission off when I did the previous job. Even if I figure this out, does this also hold the cam pulleys tight? It's basically pointless if I cannot get the cam pulleys off, the seals are leaking significantly. Everyone that I ran into during the research process said they followed the lexls.com tutorial and had it worked fine. However, there is absolutely NO trace of how to remove the pulley or hold it still, just says "use a breaker bar or impact wrench". Apperently it is obvious which one they used... impact. Very frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsalih Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I'm not sure how the 91 is setup but my 98 has a second cover under the tranny which has a flex-plate as you noted. I should mention that I was not doing this to remove the cam pulley, only to get at the larger crank bolt. For the cam pulley bolt you can possibly try using a chain wrench you wrap around the cam pulley, but you would need to put an old belt around it first to not damage it. I'm not certain with how the camshaft looks on the 91 model but if it's like most cars out there then you will have a flat area on the camshaft which you could use to hold the camshaft with an open end wrench (yes you would need to remove the valve cover to see this) in order to remove the pulley bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenore Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I removed a crank pulley bolt on a Dodge Caravan by jamming a wooden handle behind the pulley. But the bolt was a bas%^%$ and it took me 3 hours to get it off. The next pulley I removed on a Mercedes took less than 1 minute with the use of an air wrench and air compressor. Sorry but being an old mechanic myself the investment at Harbor frieght tools for a air wrench and cheap $169 dollar compressor will save not only your time but a tremendous amount of swearing. Plus look at it this way you will have a compressor and air wrench for the future, and air your tires up. The other way to look at it is that the dealership will charge you 10 times that amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 I removed a crank pulley bolt on a Dodge Caravan by jamming a wooden handle behind the pulley. But the bolt was a bas%^%$ and it took me 3 hours to get it off. The next pulley I removed on a Mercedes took less than 1 minute with the use of an air wrench and air compressor. Sorry but being an old mechanic myself the investment at Harbor frieght tools for a air wrench and cheap $169 dollar compressor will save not only your time but a tremendous amount of swearing. Plus look at it this way you will have a compressor and air wrench for the future, and air your tires up. The other way to look at it is that the dealership will charge you 10 times that amount. I am considering buying a somewhat powerful electric compressor from Harbor Freight. The problem is I am a college student on his own, with no garage and I live in a small room 30 ft and 3 flights up in the air from where my car is outside. I gave my limited amount of tools to my younger brother who is still living at home to demonstrate that I was proud of him for saving up for his own car [parents are getting back on their feet]. I also buy/sell cars that I come accross, as is the case with this lexus, though I've grown fond of it, so funds are limited until I sell a 99 accord I put on the market a month back. If I buy a compressor, that'll be on top of my 200.00+ I've already spent in tools [saving money...] not to mention I have absolutely no where to put it except under the kitchen table. I can figure out how to power the electric impact gun but will have to consult the store to find one I know will be able to get the bolt loose. I am nervous because many say they have the best of the best shop equipment and fail to get toyota/lexus crank bolts off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperopt Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Depending on how tight the bolt was when it was last torqued, I say you would need at least 200-250ft*lbs to get the crank bolt off. As the the cam bolts you can use the existing heads of the bolts, which fasten the cam shield plate right behind the cam pulleys between the pulley's spokes, as anchors to the bar to hold the cam still. For example, I used a 10mm socket on the end of the long socket extension and place the socket between the pulley's spokes and on the cam shield plate bolt, as if you were to remove that bolt, then firmly hold the socket extension while undoing the cam bolt. Some old school mechanics (including me prior to having air tools and desperate) used the starter to crank and undo the crank bolts. I don't advocate this method but I performed a few times as a last resort so here it is but you're responsible for all your actions: use a long breaker bar with the bolt socket attached. The breaker bar must be long enough to lean against a sturding fix point to hold the bar/socket still when you crank the starter. I used mother earth as that fix point. Use that socket/bar to manually crank the engine clockwise (when view from the front) until you cannot crank further and the breaker bar rest upon the fix point you selected. Then get out of the way and give the starter a short 1/2sec crank burst and hope for the best. Starter method only works if your engine rotates clockwise (when view from the front) when run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 Depending on how tight the bolt was when it was last torqued, I say you would need at least 200-250ft*lbs to get the crank bolt off. As the the cam bolts you can use the existing heads of the bolts, which fasten the cam shield plate right behind the cam pulleys between the pulley's spokes, as anchors to the bar to hold the cam still. For example, I used a 10mm socket on the end of the long socket extension and place the socket between the pulley's spokes and on the cam shield plate bolt, as if you were to remove that bolt, then firmly hold the socket extension while undoing the cam bolt. Some old school mechanics (including me prior to having air tools and desperate) used the starter to crank and undo the crank bolts. I don't advocate this method but I performed a few times as a last resort so here it is but you're responsible for all your actions: use a long breaker bar with the bolt socket attached. The breaker bar must be long enough to lean against a sturding fix point to hold the bar/socket still when you crank the starter. I used mother earth as that fix point. Use that socket/bar to manually crank the engine clockwise (when view from the front) until you cannot crank further and the breaker bar rest upon the fix point you selected. Then get out of the way and give the starter a short 1/2sec crank burst and hope for the best. Starter method only works if your engine rotates clockwise (when view from the front) when run. I am scouting a possible electric impact gun right now. I can get a 325ftlbstq one for around 120.00 shipped, plus 20.00 for an extension cord. I realized that I am not sure how you would use extensions to reach the crank bolt, as it will obviously not fit between the AT coolor and crank in the car. I will investigate the cam pulley strategy you suggested, it sounds promising. As per the 'starter trick', I have an extremely sturdy and long torque wrench I can use as a breaker bar against the concrete that will go to 250ftlbstq safely, then just let the nut spin. I think that should be enough with some PB Blaster. For this, you would want the TB off the cam pulleys correct? Also, as per a more general question, the marks/timing/placement of the timing belt against the cam and crank pulleys is only important when you are putting the new belt on correct? It will not hurt anything if they are moved around during dissassembly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperopt Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 As per the 'starter trick', I have an extremely sturdy and long torque wrench I can use as a breaker bar against the concrete that will go to 250ftlbstq safely, then just let the nut spin. I think that should be enough with some PB Blaster. For this, you would want the TB off the cam pulleys correct? Also, as per a more general question, the marks/timing/placement of the timing belt against the cam and crank pulleys is only important when you are putting the new belt on correct? It will not hurt anything if they are moved around during dissassembly? Don't know what PB Blaster is but you should not remove the TB until you're ready to replace it right away. Remember, this is a four stroke engine which meant the crank turns 2 revolutions for every 1 rev of cam. As long as the cam marks are on the spot you will be fine with cams but not so with crank - only every OTHER revolution of crank is correct top dead center. With that in mind, here are my tips in regard to TB which might save you headaches in the long run: 1. loosen both cam & cranks bolts but don't remove them 2. manually crank the crank shaft until all cam & crank marks lineup 3. remove the cranks bolt again (which should be easy now) but try not to get the crank off its mark 4. replace TB and other parts and make sure all pulley marks line up 5. before you put back everything (but ofcourse after you replaced the idlers & tensioner), manually crank the crankshaft (clockwise when viewed from front) 2 revs and make sure all pulley marks lineup. Repeat step 5 again to make sure you're not imagining things. :o If I hadn't perform step 5 on my last TB change, I would probably hung myself as the cam was spring loaded and rotated itself out of position without me knowing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 Thank you, that makes things much clearer. I think I'm just going to manufacture a way of getting the cam bolts loose and then use the starter trick and pray. I agree on the double checking and hopefully I won't have to remove the valve covers to get some sort of support/stopping power on the cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 then use the starter trick and pray. You might want to check the LS400 timing belt replacement archives at Club Lexus because there have been cases when the "starter trick" broke the LS400 starter. And remember the starter trick cannot be used to retrighten the crank pulley bolt. So how will you retighten it to the proper torque ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 then use the starter trick and pray. You might want to check the LS400 timing belt replacement archives at Club Lexus because there have been cases when the "starter trick" broke the LS400 starter. And remember the starter trick cannot be used to retrighten the crank pulley bolt. So how will you retighten it to the proper torque ?? Exactly. I've been looking for that answer for days through several forums without any solid results. I am actually on ClubLexus more than here, but the tech here is more responsive. I'm still considering alternate methods at this point in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapper_daddy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Thank you, that makes things much clearer. I think I'm just going to manufacture a way of getting the cam bolts loose and then use the starter trick and pray. I agree on the double checking and hopefully I won't have to remove the valve covers to get some sort of support/stopping power on the cams. you keep talking about stopping the cams if you are jamming the crank or not the cams will either turn ro not because they are connected to the crank BEHIND what you are trying to loosen and are run by the TB, so don't use the starter trick and try to jam the cams at the same time, actually don't try to stop them under any circumstance or you will cause damage.......i may not be understanding exactly what you are trying to say but i just wanted to keep you from hurting your motor just in case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 I do not understand what you are saying either except for the last portion regarding the safety of my engine, in which I am thankful for your concern. In order to remove the bolts on the cam pulleys you MUST stop the cams somehow [or 'jam' them], or simply overwhelm them with air tools or the bolt will NOT come off. I'm bidding on a 325ftlbstq electrical wrench on ebay. The guy set it to end at midnight though, not the most ideal time I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sapper_daddy Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 sorry i thought you were saying you were going to jam the cams in order to loosen the crank......yeah there are cam locks, however i just fabricated a fork looking deal to stick in between the spokes and then bolt down the handle to another bolt. some thin flat bar, a small torch, and a power drill outta work and you should get away with a set of reusable cam pully locks for about 10 bucks I do not understand what you are saying either except for the last portion regarding the safety of my engine, in which I am thankful for your concern. In order to remove the bolts on the cam pulleys you MUST stop the cams somehow [or 'jam' them], or simply overwhelm them with air tools or the bolt will NOT come off. I'm bidding on a 325ftlbstq electrical wrench on ebay. The guy set it to end at midnight though, not the most ideal time I'd say. the air wrench will be nice to have though, trust me, you might want to look up a set of sockets for that wrench, usually 20-30 at harbor frieght Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mehullica Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Go buy a chain strap wrench from Snap-On. Wrap a rag around the crank pulley. Lock the pulley with the chain wrench. Break loose the crank and cam pulleys. Take off the t/belt and replace seals etc,. Forget the electric impact. Chain wrench is about $100 and works on many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadcutter Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I do not understand what you are saying either except for the last portion regarding the safety of my engine, in which I am thankful for your concern. In order to remove the bolts on the cam pulleys you MUST stop the cams somehow [or 'jam' them], or simply overwhelm them with air tools or the bolt will NOT come off. I'm bidding on a 325ftlbstq electrical wrench on ebay. The guy set it to end at midnight though, not the most ideal time I'd say. sahtt: http://www.auctionsniper.com/default.aspx Just enter your Max bid & forget it. If someone outbids you, they paid too much (more than you were willing to pay). Set your "Leadtime" to NOT LESS than 8 seconds & you're good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 mehullica is the second Lexus dealer tech I've heard praising the use of a chain strap type wrench. Apparently one like this: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P6...ore&dir=catalog So if that's the tool the pros use I figure it must be good !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mehullica Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The chain wrench is great. Use it all the time. An old drive belt cut to wrap around the pulley will keep the pulley in perfect shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahtt Posted January 18, 2006 Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 Perhaps I'm making some progress. I can cut the section of the old timing belt that's visible to fit around the crank pulley and use this tool. I've found a couple on ebay, I do not see why this costs over 100.00 dollars new. Then again, all the snap-on tools seem overpriced to me. With the 24" handle, I should be able to get it against something for leverage pretty easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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