Engine Will Not Warm To Operating Temperature

[Gumart1]

The truth is this is my wife's Saturn, but I know that this problem could happen to any car and perhaps someone here can benefit too.

I'm not sure if the problem existed before I flushed the coolant, so please don't assume that my flushing caused the problem, although it may have.

Car has high miles (180k) but has been well maintained. I did the coolant flush without chemicals but used a garden hose down the resovoir as per my Haynes manual. Coolant level is perfect, no leaks. But the car will not heat up to operating temperature. It hovers around the lowest mark and I know this is too low. There is warm heat from the vents but it isn't very hot. Doesn't matter if the car is driven 20 miles on the highway, same thing. Any suggestions?

[Icemaninlv]

The truth is this is my wife's Saturn, but I know that this problem could happen to any car and perhaps someone here can benefit too.

I'm not sure if the problem existed before I flushed the coolant, so please don't assume that my flushing caused the problem, although it may have.

Car has high miles (180k) but has been well maintained. I did the coolant flush without chemicals but used a garden hose down the resovoir as per my Haynes manual. Coolant level is perfect, no leaks. But the car will not heat up to operating temperature. It hovers around the lowest mark and I know this is too low. There is warm heat from the vents but it isn't very hot. Doesn't matter if the car is driven 20 miles on the highway, same thing. Any suggestions?

←

stuck open thermostat

[Toysrme]

Exactly.

[Gumart1]

Sounds like a concensus! :D So basically if I drain the coolant and replace the thermostat, and refill (can I reuse the coolant, it's basically new?), I should be set, right? Is the thermostat a part I want to use OEM with, or does it not matter? I know it's just a few dollars. Thanks for the quick replies.

[Toysrme]

I wouldn't re-use it. A gallon of anti-freeze is only a couple dollars & water varries between free & cheaper than dirt.

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling3

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling6

[mburnickas]

I wouldn't re-use it. A gallon of anti-freeze is only a couple dollars & water varries between free & cheaper than dirt.

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling3

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling6

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good link but I must say I would take deionized water and currently use DI waster over distilled water in a heart beat.

Distilled can still have metals, salts etc (TDS) in them. If this was not true I would be using this water for my reef tank and no need a RO/DI filter.

[ZINFANDEL22]

I wouldn't re-use it. A gallon of anti-freeze is only a couple dollars & water varries between free & cheaper than dirt.

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling3

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling6

←

good link but I must say I would take deionized water and currently use DI waster over distilled water in a heart beat.

Distilled can still have metals, salts etc (TDS) in them. If this was not true I would be using this water for my reef tank and no need a RO/DI filter.

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So TOYS you use 15% to 85% ? Everyone in here always said 50/50. yes good article. thanks

[jragosta]

I wouldn't re-use it. A gallon of anti-freeze is only a couple dollars & water varries between free & cheaper than dirt.

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling3

http://www.mkiv.com/faq/faqtt.html#enginecooling6

←

good link but I must say I would take deionized water and currently use DI waster over distilled water in a heart beat.

Distilled can still have metals, salts etc (TDS) in them. If this was not true I would be using this water for my reef tank and no need a RO/DI filter.

←

(Most of my professional career has been in water purification). It's actually not that simple. 'DI' and 'distilled' refer to the process used to purify the water. There's no guarantee that DI will have less TDS (dissolved solids) than distilled water. A poorly run DI system will have higher TDS than a poorly run distiller, for example. A well run conventional DI system should outperform a single stage distiller, but not a triple stage distiller. Then, of course, there are the DI systems used for things like water for injection (pharmaceuticals) and power plants (where impurity levels are measured in parts per billion or less).

Then there's the issue of 'good impurities' vs 'bad impurities'. Chlorides and low pH are almost always bad. But a moderate level of carbonate (especially with a slighly elevated pH) can help to reduce corrosion (very pure DI water can be extremely corrosive in some circumstances).

Bottom line is that for a car radiator, you're unlikely to see the difference between DI and distilled water. Either of them will have a low enough salt content that the difference won't matter - especially after adding the antifreeze which has corrosion inhibitors. For that matter, in many communities, the tap water is more than adequate (if the pH is > about 7.2, chlorides are low, and free chlorine is low).

[mburnickas]

(Most of my professional career has been in water purification). It's actually not that simple. 'DI' and 'distilled' refer to the process used to purify the water. There's no guarantee that DI will have less TDS (dissolved solids) than distilled water. A poorly run DI system will have higher TDS than a poorly run distiller, for example. A well run conventional DI system should outperform a single stage distiller, but not a triple stage distiller. Then, of course, there are the DI systems used for things like water for injection (pharmaceuticals) and power plants (where impurity levels are measured in parts per billion or less).

Then there's the issue of 'good impurities' vs 'bad impurities'. Chlorides and low pH are almost always bad. But a moderate level of carbonate (especially with a slighly elevated pH) can help to reduce corrosion (very pure DI water can be extremely corrosive in some circumstances).

Bottom line is that for a car radiator, you're unlikely to see the difference between DI and distilled water. Either of them will have a low enough salt content that the difference won't matter - especially after adding the antifreeze which has corrosion inhibitors. For that matter, in many communities, the tap water is more than adequate (if the pH is > about 7.2, chlorides are low, and free chlorine is low).

←

true, but that is why I have a TDS meter unit and mine is running 000 TDS of the RO nevermind the DI since it is zero in.

The DI does have a shelf life and so does the RO. AS you stated a DI can be very poor, but so far in my short time of 12 years of doing a reef tank, distilled water has a lot of crap in it. That is me.

My little 5-stage RO/DI works just fine for my reef so I know the TDS, ALK, PH etc of the water coming out.

Do I want 35 ppm of TDS (junk) in distilled or 000 with RO/DI that I make? It is your call for yours but I know what I want. PLus the other things I test for show me what I have BEFORE I put in the chemicals. All the extra things WILL cause reactions in the chemicals in the coolant.

To close a RO/DI will perform better unless your "house keeping" skill are lacking.

[jragosta]

true, but  that is why I have a TDS meter unit and mine is running 000 TDS of the RO nevermind the DI since it is zero in.

The DI does have a shelf life and so does the RO. AS you stated a DI can be very poor, but so far in my short time of 12 years of doing a reef tank, distilled water has a lot of crap in it. That is me.

My little 5-stage RO/DI works just fine for my reef so I know the TDS, ALK, PH etc of the water coming out.

←

Shelf life is another issue. As long as the water is covered, changes in its TDS meter (that's actually a misnomer. It's measuring conductivity, not TDS. Some things like CO2 (which dissolves to form carbonic acid) will increase the conductivity on your meter, but actually don't contribute TDS) reading are almost entirely because the water dissolves CO2. That's why DI water that you buy in a store has higher conductivity on your meter than freshly produced DI water. The water on the shelf picks up CO2. Since the CO2 will largely dissipate from your water the first time the engine gets hot, this isn't a big deal.

The other factor to consider is that your aquarium has different needs than a radiator. For example, you want to be sure that there are no oils or dissolved organics in the water. These won't have much impact on a radiator, but they can kill a fish. Plus, of course, your radiator isn't filled 50% with antifreeze that's loaded with corrosion inhibitors.

[camlex]

it's just water for radiator. No matter what you will use, 7-10 years you have to replace.

[ZINFANDEL22]

(Most of my professional career has been in water purification). It's actually not that simple. 'DI' and 'distilled' refer to the process used to purify the water. There's no guarantee that DI will have less TDS (dissolved solids) than distilled water. A poorly run DI system will have higher TDS than a poorly run distiller, for example. A well run conventional DI system should outperform a single stage distiller, but not a triple stage distiller. Then, of course, there are the DI systems used for things like water for injection (pharmaceuticals) and power plants (where impurity levels are measured in parts per billion or less).

Then there's the issue of 'good impurities' vs 'bad impurities'. Chlorides and low pH are almost always bad. But a moderate level of carbonate (especially with a slighly elevated pH) can help to reduce corrosion (very pure DI water can be extremely corrosive in some circumstances).

Bottom line is that for a car radiator, you're unlikely to see the difference between DI and distilled water. Either of them will have a low enough salt content that the difference won't matter - especially after adding the antifreeze which has corrosion inhibitors. For that matter, in many communities, the tap water is more than adequate (if the pH is > about 7.2, chlorides are low, and free chlorine is low).

←

true, but that is why I have a TDS meter unit and mine is running 000 TDS of the RO nevermind the DI since it is zero in.

The DI does have a shelf life and so does the RO. AS you stated a DI can be very poor, but so far in my short time of 12 years of doing a reef tank, distilled water has a lot of crap in it. That is me.

My little 5-stage RO/DI works just fine for my reef so I know the TDS, ALK, PH etc of the water coming out.

Do I want 35 ppm of TDS (junk) in distilled or 000 with RO/DI that I make? It is your call for yours but I know what I want. PLus the other things I test for show me what I have BEFORE I put in the chemicals. All the extra things WILL cause reactions in the chemicals in the coolant.

To close a RO/DI will perform better unless your "house keeping" skill are lacking.

←

MB your second person i saw today talking about their reef tank. If you dont mind can we get off the subject for awhile? How big is your tank and whats in it? I use to have a 120 gal reef tank and miss it alot, its better than tv thats for sure. Enjoy it ..

[mburnickas]

Shelf life is another issue. As long as the water is covered, changes in its TDS meter (that's actually a misnomer. It's measuring conductivity, not TDS. Some things like CO2 (which dissolves to form carbonic acid) will increase the conductivity on your meter, but actually don't contribute TDS) reading are almost entirely because the water dissolves CO2. That's why DI water that you buy in a store has higher conductivity on your meter than freshly produced DI water. The water on the shelf picks up CO2. Since the CO2 will largely dissipate from your water the first time the engine gets hot, this isn't a big deal.

The other factor to consider is that your aquarium has different needs than a radiator. For example, you want to be sure that there are no oils or dissolved organics in the water. These won't have much impact on a radiator, but they can kill a fish. Plus, of course, your radiator isn't filled 50% with antifreeze that's loaded with corrosion inhibitors.

←

I know what TDS is but TDS is integral to volts. That is a no brainer. C02 will dissolve but that is why you air rates the water. PH is also affected by C02.

I am not going to go into detail with “aquariums” but again, I know what is better and why. Plus I can test my new RO/DI water (as making) and 1-month old water in sealed water jugs and you know what, both are 000 of TDS. PH is with 10%. Do you need DKH and ALK, Ca, nitrates, Phosphates, etc .

[mburnickas]

it's just water for radiator. No matter what you will use, 7-10 years you have to replace.

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That is a little soon here.

[jragosta]

I know what TDS is but TDS is integral to volts. That is a no brainer. C02 will dissolve but that is why you air rates the water. PH is also affected by C02.

I am not going to go into detail with “aquariums” but again, I know what is better and why. Plus I can test my new RO/DI water (as making) and 1-month old water in sealed water jugs and you know what, both are 000 of TDS. PH is with 10%. Do you need DKH and ALK, Ca, nitrates, Phosphates, etc .

←

Your information is not correct. Your meter is NOT measuring TDS as I pointed out. It measures conductivity. The only way to truly measure TDS is via a gravimetric method.

Your meter measures conductivity - which it then translates to a TDS equivalent, based on an assumption that all the conductivity is caused by sodium bicarbonate (or something like that). If you take absolutely pure water and add CO2, the TDS is still zero, but the conductivity will increase.

If you take your DI water and leave it exposed to the air for some period of time, CO2 will dissolve - and the TDS meter will show that you have TDS - which isn't true. In your case, you have it in a sealed jug. Obviously water in a sealed jug won't pick up CO2. Better yet, try an experiment. Take a sample of your RO/DI water and your TDS meter says it has 0 ppm. Now, blow into it with a straw for a while (obviously, you'll want to use a relatively small sample for this unless you want to be blowing for an hour). This will saturate it with CO2. Measure the 'TDS' again.

I'm not saying that you can't get bad distilled water, but your test doesn't show that. You're simply measuring exposure of the distilled water to air, causing it to pick up CO2.

[mburnickas]

I know what TDS is but TDS is integral to volts. That is a no brainer. C02 will dissolve but that is why you air rates the water. PH is also affected by C02.

I am not going to go into detail with “aquariums” but again, I know what is better and why. Plus I can test my new RO/DI water (as making) and 1-month old water in sealed water jugs and you know what, both are 000 of TDS. PH is with 10%. Do you need DKH and ALK, Ca, nitrates, Phosphates, etc .

←

Your information is not correct. Your meter is NOT measuring TDS as I pointed out. It measures conductivity. The only way to truly measure TDS is via a gravimetric method.

Your meter measures conductivity - which it then translates to a TDS equivalent, based on an assumption that all the conductivity is caused by sodium bicarbonate (or something like that). If you take absolutely pure water and add CO2, the TDS is still zero, but the conductivity will increase.

If you take your DI water and leave it exposed to the air for some period of time, CO2 will dissolve - and the TDS meter will show that you have TDS - which isn't true. In your case, you have it in a sealed jug. Obviously water in a sealed jug won't pick up CO2. Better yet, try an experiment. Take a sample of your RO/DI water and your TDS meter says it has 0 ppm. Now, blow into it with a straw for a while (obviously, you'll want to use a relatively small sample for this unless you want to be blowing for an hour). This will saturate it with CO2. Measure the 'TDS' again.

I'm not saying that you can't get bad distilled water, but your test doesn't show that. You're simply measuring exposure of the distilled water to air, causing it to pick up CO2.

←

I know that TDS conductivity, as I noted before.

I weakly full Ro/DI water (5-gallons) and heat and air rate with a 1,000 gph pump. The ph goes up a little (which it should) and the TDS go up by about 2 or 3. Most times over 24 hours, it is from the plastic etc.

Your notes or post is correct by no one use a little amount. I do all my water in 1 gallon, 5 gallon or 20 gallon.

Also if you blow on it, your PH will go nuts.

Again I can make Ro/DI and buy ANY distilled wter from the food store or walmart; as I have in the past. All are over 30 ppm of TDS right after opening.

And you can use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to raise PH but washing soda is better. :D

You can also do the reverse. If you have high PH, if you blow air on it and it will lower; but other things change.

[ArmyofOne]

The truth is this is my wife's Saturn, but I know that this problem could happen to any car and perhaps someone here can benefit too.

I'm not sure if the problem existed before I flushed the coolant, so please don't assume that my flushing caused the problem, although it may have.

Car has high miles (180k) but has been well maintained. I did the coolant flush without chemicals but used a garden hose down the resovoir as per my Haynes manual. Coolant level is perfect, no leaks. But the car will not heat up to operating temperature. It hovers around the lowest mark and I know this is too low. There is warm heat from the vents but it isn't very hot. Doesn't matter if the car is driven 20 miles on the highway, same thing. Any suggestions?

←

stuck open thermostat

←

Ditto.

[Toysrme]

LoL! Ya I normally run in the neighboorhood of 25-75, with tap water & water wetter. Water wetter is the shiznits. Great inhibitor package & raises the lubricity of the coolant.

The big thing is getting rid of the coolant before the inhibitor package starts breaking down 'cause two things happen

1) The coolant goes back to attacking metal it comes in contact with

2) The anti-freeze in the mix starts to sludge/gel up

That's why they tell you to flush coolant atleast every other year. ;) So it doesn't matter what kind of water, anti-freeze, and driving conditions you have.

Ya, the clean water is better, but in all honesty, if you stick to the directions of flush it every other year (Or drain it every year) it's not gonna matter. 's about like oil. If you're gonna do some short interval (like 3 months , 3,000m) it doesn't really matter what crappy oil you use. (as long as it meets the requirements).

[mburnickas]

LoL! Ya I normally run in the neighboorhood of 25-75, with tap water & water wetter. Water wetter is the shiznits. Great inhibitor package & raises the lubricity of the coolant.

The big thing is getting rid of the coolant before the inhibitor package starts breaking down 'cause two things happen

1) The coolant goes back to attacking metal it comes in contact with

2) The anti-freeze in the mix starts to sludge/gel up

That's why they tell you to flush coolant atleast every other year. ;) So it doesn't matter what kind of water, anti-freeze, and driving conditions you have.

Ya, the clean water is better, but in all honesty, if you stick to the directions of flush it every other year (Or drain it every year) it's not gonna matter. 's about like oil. If you're gonna do some short interval (like 3 months , 3,000m) it doesn't really matter what crappy oil you use. (as long as it meets the requirements).

←

watter wetter??? That stuff does nothing nevermind it freezes! It is like Engine ice. Overpriced and get nothing for it.

If your anti-freeze sludges up, you have coolant that is dropping out. If you buy a good coolant this should not happen.

I will also disagree since if you have high silicates etc, it will look like crap over time. Just look at dex-cool. Case closed. So it does matter what coolant you select and what it conforms too (requirments wise). Now Toyota long life is the same as other coolants if you look around. There are other EG coolants (prestone etc) that are crap since the silcates are through the roof.

Not going to touch the 3 months or 3K miles on oil. That is just laughable here since I have never seen a need to do it and never have.

Not picking on ya, but I have seen coolants and oil look like crap in a short time. I know people can use them without problems or very little issues. But who wants to drain there oil every 3 months or coolant flush every other year? Why not spend a little more $$ and get a better fluid and go much longer?

Just my wacked-out thinking.

Again, not starting a fight here... :P

[jragosta]

Your information is not correct. Your meter is NOT measuring TDS as I pointed out. It measures conductivity. The only way to truly measure TDS is via a gravimetric method.

Your meter measures conductivity - which it then translates to a TDS equivalent, based on an assumption that all the conductivity is caused by sodium bicarbonate (or something like that). If you take absolutely pure water and add CO2, the TDS is still zero, but the conductivity will increase.

If you take your DI water and leave it exposed to the air for some period of time, CO2 will dissolve - and the TDS meter will show that you have TDS - which isn't true. In your case, you have it in a sealed jug. Obviously water in a sealed jug won't pick up CO2. Better yet, try an experiment. Take a sample of your RO/DI water and your TDS meter says it has 0 ppm. Now, blow into it with a straw for a while (obviously, you'll want to use a relatively small sample for this unless you want to be blowing for an hour). This will saturate it with CO2. Measure the 'TDS' again.

I'm not saying that you can't get bad distilled water, but your test doesn't show that. You're simply measuring exposure of the distilled water to air, causing it to pick up CO2.

←

I know that TDS conductivity, as I noted before.

I weakly full Ro/DI water (5-gallons) and heat and air rate with a 1,000 gph pump. The ph goes up a little (which it should) and the TDS go up by about 2 or 3. Most times over 24 hours, it is from the plastic etc.

Your notes or post is correct by no one use a little amount. I do all my water in 1 gallon, 5 gallon or 20 gallon.

Also if you blow on it, your PH will go nuts.

Again I can make Ro/DI and buy ANY distilled wter from the food store or walmart; as I have in the past. All are over 30 ppm of TDS right after opening.

And you can use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to raise PH but washing soda is better. :D

You can also do the reverse. If you have high PH, if you blow air on it and it will lower; but other things change.

←

You're missing the point entirely. Go back and read what I wrote. You are NOT measuring TDS. You are measuring conductivity which the meter converts to a pseudo-TDS value, based on an arbitrary conversion factor. CO2 in the water raises conductivity so that it LOOKS like you have 30 ppm of TDS, but you don't. You have CO2 dissolved in the water (which is not TDS). Until you understand that basic concept, you're going to continue to be confused.

BTW, about half of your message makes no sense at all. You will find communication to be much easier if you check to make sure your post is comprehensible before posting.

[mburnickas]

TDS is integral to conductivity; I stated volts WAY back if you look. I am not confused since I have been doing reef tanks for years. TDS is mearing conductivity but no one cares about "conductivity" or ions blah blah. We need values and TDS are it and they work.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/...ature/index.php

I know all about TDS, Ph etc. Not rocket science here. you can say this and that, but I know what I test for and real world apps I see every week when I test for it.

To close if you have TDS in the water, it is not pure PERIOD! If you have CO2 in the water it will raise more then jsut your TDS.

Oh, I left water out for over 15 hours with a fan on it. Tested it, and by the way you are a little off. My TDS were 000 ppm before and 000 ppm after.. :cries:

And if you were in salt water reefs my post makes 100% perfect sence. Did the washing soda through you for a loop?????

All these values you test for are all integral to eachother. Higher PH, means low Ca in water, low Mg, ALK, DHK etc. If you have TDS in the water you have more salts, minerals etc. If you have C02 in the water I have never seen tds raise (in my reef) but PH does. But as I am sure you know that PH is again integral to other values.

Again, I see it every week but what do I know. I am making 5 gallons of Ro/DI water right now. But what do I know. I only have coral, fish, inverts depends on me....

[jragosta]

TDS is integral to conductivity; I stated volts WAY back if you look.  I am not confused since I have been doing reef tanks for years. TDS is mearing conductivity but no one cares about "conductivity" or ions blah blah. We need values and TDS are it and they work.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/...ature/index.php

I know all about TDS, Ph etc. Not rocket science here. you can say this and that, but I know what I test for and real world apps I see every week when I test for it.

To close if you have TDS in the water, it is not pure PERIOD! If you have CO2 in the water it will raise more then jsut your TDS.

Oh, I left water out for over 15 hours with a fan on it. Tested it, and by the way you are a little off. My TDS were 000 ppm before and 000 ppm after..:cries:

And if you were in salt water reefs my post makes 100% perfect sence. Did the washing soda through you for a loop?????

All these values you test for are all integral to eachother. Higher PH, means low Ca in water, low Mg, ALK, DHK etc. If you have TDS in the water you have more salts, minerals etc. If you have C02 in the water I have never seen tds raise (in my reef) but PH does. But as I am sure you know that PH is again integral to other values.

Again, I see it every week but what do I know. I am making 5 gallons of Ro/DI water right now. But what do I know. I only have coral, fish, inverts depends on me....

←

You have been taught to follow rote instructions. I have a PhD in chemistry -and over a dozen years of water purification experience. You are wrong. High conductivity is NOT always caused by high TDS. Higher pH does NOT mean low Ca in the water.

Don't confuse the ability to follow a few rote directions with truly understanding a topic.

[mburnickas]

You have been taught to follow rote instructions. I have a PhD in chemistry -and over a dozen years of water purification experience. You are wrong. High conductivity is NOT always caused by high TDS.  Higher pH does NOT mean low Ca in the water.

Don't confuse the ability to follow a few rote directions with truly understanding a topic.

←

That is great you have a PHD...To bad I know people with PHD's that can put wipers on cars too. BONG Don't let a piece of paper "go to your head". When people starting bringing in degrees it is a last resort. I could careless what you have nor would I resort going to this level.

You can take rules for this and that. I know what is "gospel" in the reef world. You can whine about TDS are this and that. In the end, you measure TDS in ppm, period. If you were right show me a conductivity meter and not a TDS meter. Show me where to buy a conductivity meter for testing my salt water????? It beter not have TDS on it anywhere.

Higher PH in my world of water does mean low Ca and ALk. They are all again integral to eachother.

Go get a reef tank and see how good your little piece of paper is; it will not pay for my thoudsands of dollars in coral either.

To close, just because someone has a degree does not make them any smarter then anyone else. It means you can pass some tests, write some papers and talk to some people. Hell, I have been there and wasted my time.

**If you want too, PM or email me since this topic is getting pretty old nor does 99.9999% of the people care about it nor who has what piece of paper either.

[914lps]

Holly my tap water is about 15 to 18 on the scale!!!!

Just having some fun with you. I would never put the that comes out of the tap in my town, into my car.

Infact I will not even wash my car with it.

But I see folks allover town putting into thier cars! Locale radeator shop keeps busy.

I use a softer system and revers ro system. But to play it safe I use a good premix solution.

[bartkat]

Our deionizer worked better after we started feeding it with water from a steam condensate line.