A/c Leak/convert To R134a?

[johnw991]

This is my first visit. I bought a 1990 LS400 1 year ago with 115K and it had no cold air. I got the Lexus printout and it had a major service 4K before I bought it. The Lexus service guy knew the car and it had all Lexus service done on time. The non Lexus dealer I bought it from got it charged last July when I bought it and it lasted through the summer last year into the winter, but in the spring it was not cold. Took it to the same A/C place in April 2005 and they found a leak ( I think in the expansion valve?) and repaired it with a 1 year guarantee for that particular problem. Reasonable price I thought for less than $150 including R12 charge. Over the past couple weeks the cold went away, going to only a little cool 2 days ago. I have an appointment with them next Tuesday to check it. I wondered if I should take it elsewhere. Another place told me they could check it this Friday (it is hot here in Pittsburgh for a change) but they did not do R12. They offered to convert to R134A for $150 and find the leak as part of that.

The Lexus dealer said it would be $300 for a charge and $85 an hour to find the problem.

Advice?

[RFeldes]

I would bite the bullet and take it to Lexus, find the leak and then determine my options. The conversion does not solve your problem and could add to your costs as a conversion is only an option (to me) when you have a hard failure such as a compressor. Then I would replace compressor, dryer and o-rings. Since your compressor is still good I would try to keep it R12 as designed. The used car mechanic, evidently did not find the problem or leak since I never heard of an expansion valve leaking. The Lexus guys should find it in a maximum of two hours and if it is the compressor then instead of allowing them to change it at an outragious fee, take the car home without the $300 freon charge and come back here for more advice.

[RFeldes]

I'm sorry, forgot to mention that if it something other than the compressor, condensor, or coil, I would let them fix it and be done with it for less than say $1,000.00. My leak was a high side return line under the compressor. $180.00 part, plus labor and freon. Could be as simple as an O-ring and usually located in front of the passenger side, under the hood by the low side fill.

[johnw991]

The Lexus dealer wanted $300 to add freon before the diagnosis. I figured about 2 hrs. to find the problem which means I would have to pay $470 to find the problem. Sounds high. But a Lexus dealer about 25 miles away says they have been converting older LS400s to R134a for $100 including charging and adding dye. Then I would return after awhile and they would find the problem for free. Sounds like a good deal. Any opinions?

[RFeldes]

Does the $100.00 include a new drier and o-rings?

[monarch]

The Lexus dealer wanted $300 to add freon before the diagnosis.  I figured about 2 hrs. to find the problem which means I would have to pay $470 to find the problem.  Sounds high.  But a Lexus dealer about 25 miles away says they have been converting older LS400s to R134a for $100 including charging and adding dye.  Then I would return after awhile and they would find the problem for free.  Sounds like a good deal.  Any opinions?

←

I agree with the first Lexus dealer that the system needs to be recharged with R12 so the refrigerant gas will leak again and then the AC technician can go looking for the location.of the gas leakage. If you had a little experience, you could recharge the system yourself with two $20 cans of genuine Freon R12 like this http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg But if you don't have the time or inclination to learn this, then I guess you'll have to fork over the $300 to the Lexus dealer or see if a Toyota dealer would do it for $150 - $200.

Official Toyota Technician Training Manuals advise against using dyes and instead using an electronic leak detector which can pinpoint a leak in a matter of minutes. So I'd find out if the first Lexus dealer has a electronic leak detector and is experienced in quickly finding leaks using the detector. If not, try some local Toyota dealers or independent Toyota specialty shops. It's totally rediculous to think it would take 2 hours to locate a leak using an electronic leak detector.

The good news is your system has only a minor, common problem - gas leakage past a worn seal somewhere. These leaks can be avoided by simply running the AC system for a few minutes once every week or two throughout the year. So if you start doing that after your leak is fixed and system recharged with genuine Freon R12, you may not have anymore AC system problems for many years to come.

Cheaply priced conversions to R134a are all scams. But you'll be pressured by every shop you visit to convert because the AC industry makes a $mint$ performing the conversion and fixing all the expensive system problems that crop up after a cheap conversion. And for the past 12 years the AC industry has lied to the public about a looming critical shortage of genuine Freon R12. The truth is that the price of R12 has actually been going down slowly but surely the past 3 years because the supply is actually exceeding the demand on account of the fact that more and more cars that use R12 are being retired from service and because the AC industry has so successfully fooled the public into believing they will be money ahead if they invest immediately in a conversion to R134a. During the winter months, cans of R12 are only $10-12 each on ebay - practically the same price as R134a !!

[Kennyr]

This is my first visit.  I bought a 1990 LS400 1 year ago with 115K and it had no cold air.  I got the Lexus printout and it had a major service 4K before I bought it.  The Lexus service guy knew the car and it had all Lexus service done on time.  The non Lexus dealer I bought it from got it charged last July when I bought it and it lasted through the summer last year into the winter, but in the spring it was not cold.  Took it to the same A/C place in April 2005 and they found a leak ( I think  in the expansion valve?) and repaired it with a 1 year guarantee for that particular problem.  Reasonable price I thought for less than $150 including R12 charge.  Over the past couple weeks the cold went away, going to only a little cool 2 days ago.  I have an appointment with them next Tuesday to check it.  I wondered if I should take it elsewhere.  Another place told me they could check it this Friday (it is hot here in Pittsburgh for a change) but they did not do R12.  They offered to convert to R134A for $150 and find the leak as part of that.

The Lexus dealer said it would be $300 for a charge and $85 an hour to find the problem.

Advice?

←

Remove the plastic cover in front of the battery. There are connections under there where I have found o rings leaking. You have to remove the headlite assembly to get in there to change one. Also under the cruise control unit on the pass side firewall. If you dont do your own work I think you should pay someone to convert it over to R134 and look for leaks, buying freon is just stupid. First problem you have, move to R134. $100 to 150 is reasonable. Changing all the o-rings and drier etc. is pure bull, cant hurt but totally a waste of time and money. Please by the book guys dont lecture me. I know what I'm talking about. I've converted dozens of systems with no problems. When you do this for a living you know what works and doesn't.

[johnw991]

The Lexus dealer wanted $300 to add freon before the diagnosis.  I figured about 2 hrs. to find the problem which means I would have to pay $470 to find the problem.  Sounds high.  But a Lexus dealer about 25 miles away says they have been converting older LS400s to R134a for $100 including charging and adding dye.  Then I would return after awhile and they would find the problem for free.  Sounds like a good deal.  Any opinions?

←

I agree with the first Lexus dealer that the system needs to be recharged with R12 so the refrigerant gas will leak again and then the AC technician can go looking for the location.of the gas leakage. If you had a little experience, you could recharge the system yourself with two $20 cans of genuine Freon R12 like this http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg But if you don't have the time or inclination to learn this, then I guess you'll have to fork over the $300 to the Lexus dealer or see if a Toyota dealer would do it for $150 - $200.

Official Toyota Technician Training Manuals advise against using dyes and instead using an electronic leak detector which can pinpoint a leak in a matter of minutes. So I'd find out if the first Lexus dealer has a electronic leak detector and is experienced in quickly finding leaks using the detector. If not, try some local Toyota dealers or independent Toyota specialty shops. It's totally rediculous to think it would take 2 hours to locate a leak using an electronic leak detector.

The good news is your system has only a minor, common problem - gas leakage past a worn seal somewhere. These leaks can be avoided by simply running the AC system for a few minutes once every week or two throughout the year. So if you start doing that after your leak is fixed and system recharged with genuine Freon R12, you may not have anymore AC system problems for many years to come.

Cheaply priced conversions to R134a are all scams. But you'll be pressured by every shop you visit to convert because the AC industry makes a $mint$ performing the conversion and fixing all the expensive system problems that crop up after a cheap conversion. And for the past 12 years the AC industry has lied to the public about a looming critical shortage of genuine Freon R12. The truth is that the price of R12 has actually been going down slowly but surely the past 3 years because the supply is actually exceeding the demand on account of the fact that more and more cars that use R12 are being retired from service and because the AC industry has so successfully fooled the public into believing they will be money ahead if they invest immediately in a conversion to R134a. During the winter months, cans of R12 are only $10-12 each on ebay - practically the same price as R134a !!

←

[johnw991]

I think I'll take it to the Toyota dealer who I took my 1990 Camry to for years. They do R12 and charge $49.95 to find the problem. But to charge it is $75 per pound of R12. They say I can bring my own R12. Appointment is Monday 7/11 at 8AM. They say they do not have electronic leak detector. Any ideas where to get cheap R12 by then?

Also how to learn to charge with R12 myself? Don't I need guages?

By the way, I just sold my 1990 Camry with 180,000 miles and the air was stone cold (R12). Never did anything to the air in the 4 years I owned it.

[monarch]

No I don't know how you could get R12 by Monday. There are some ebay ads for genuine R12 ending today, but recently ebay has been requiring sellers to state in their ads that the buyer must furnish proof of EPA certification. However, anyone can get certified for $15.00 via

the internet, at the following links: http://www.imaca.org/training.htm or http://www.macsw.org/macs.asp?mfurl=certify.html

My experience on ebay is that most sellers will take your word for it that you are certified and will simply ship upon receipt of payment like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=33543

No you don't really need gauges because Toyota provides a refrigerant sight glass that enables you to monitor the refrigerant level and prevent under or overcharging.

Any Toyota / Lexus factory repair manual will explain how to use the refrigerant sight glass to determine the refrigerant level. And by the way, if you ever convert to R134a the refrigerant sight glass can no longer be used to monitor refrigerant level.

I learned how to charge myself by buying a can tap valve and dispensiing hose like this one on ebay http://www.saber.net/~monarch/acrecharge.jpg and then going to the library and checking out some OLD (pre-1990) do it yourself phmplets on auto air conditioning. Or you can just read the directions that come with the can tap valve.

Attaching the can tap valve to the can of refrigerant is the only slightly difficult part of the procedure and probably the most hazardous since if you make a serious mistake, liquid refrigerant could shoot out of the can under pressure into your face. But once the can tap valve is securely attached, adding the refrigerant is easy and very similar to adding air to a tire using one of those aerosol can type inflators.

[sha4000]

sorry kenny but i think mnarch i right as far as the conversion is concerned because no matter what they say you just cant get all of the 134 out of the system which is why down the road other parts of the system go bad some people get lucky and those that keep he car long enough dont i would find a shop that will recharge the r12 and do the electronic leak detection test to find the leak and then have the repairs done

[jadecuir]

I found a friend with the right equipment, and he charged it with R-22 for leak checking, then vacuumed it out, added oil and R-12.

[johnw991]

The service guy didn't know when I asked him if it included new O rings

[johnw991]

Thanks a lot for the info on how to get certified. I'll do it tonight.

[johnw991]

A guy who has done good work at a reasonable price on my 1990 Camry said he can add a can of HC12 for a total of $27.00-he says he can't get R12. He says he put it in his Crown Victoria this April and it is still ice cold. Will HC12 damage my system? Advice?

[monarch]

HC12 and alot of other R12 substitutes will work....but nobody can tell you for how long. There's alot of info about HC12 here: http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm...&threadid=13343

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html

[RFeldes]

Hi johnw991 or in your case 911. Relax, and take your car in monday to toyota and skip the hype. Do yourself a favor and have a good weekend. Time is too short to take all this advice and your medical bills will pile up. These guys mean well and try to help. But it's hot and you need to take this off of your plate. Good Luck and follow your original intuitions.

[johnw991]

Monarch,

Thanks so much for your help! I got certified from one of the links you gave me, got 2 cans of R12 at Pep Boys, (at $35 each but still cheaper than the $75/lb the Toyota dealer was going to charge me) followed your directions, and put one in and it is pretty cold. The sight glass still has bubbles but it got dark outside so I will finish it in the morning. Your picture was extremely helpful!

I'll get some R12 on ebay for the future, and also charge my buddy's van.

By the way I read for the certification exam while sitting next to the pool at the local waterpark yesterday after working out and going to a pro tennis tounament. After buying the R12 today I took some friends out on my boat, then charged my car after I got home, so I was able to enjoy the weekend and also charge my A/C.

[RFeldes]

My Goodness! I sure hope no Feds own Lexus and belong to this forum. The reason R12 was banned is the exact reason you guys are doing this absurd thing, releasing that into our air. Obviously you have a leak. That is why you should go to a Certified AC shop, such as Toyota or Lexus and have this taken care of. They are trained and certified to take care of these problems and as a rule, are governed not to release the R12 into our atmosphere. Openly falsyfying reports and going about your business is not cool. That's all I have to say about this!!!

[monarch]

My Goodness! I sure hope no Feds own Lexus and belong to this forum. The reason R12 was banned is the exact reason you guys are doing this absurd thing, releasing that into our air. Obviously you have a leak. That is why you should go to a Certified AC shop, such as Toyota or Lexus and have this taken care of. They are trained and certified to take care of these problems and as a rule, are governed not to release the R12 into our atmosphere. Openly falsyfying reports and going about your business is not cool. That's all I have to say about this!!!

←

RFeldes, johnw991 and myself did get certified - we took the same test that a Toyota tech takes. One of the things everyone learns when they study for the test to become certified is that it's NOT illegal to add R12 to an R12 system that has a minor leak.

Also, hundreds of people on this forum, including at least one of the moderators admits of tampering / modifying the emission control system in ways that increase emissions. Those are all violations of Federal Law as well. Why is it that no one objects to those violations? A double standard as I see it.

Although R12 production in the USA was halted in 1993, it's still being legally sold and used in 3rd world countries. It's readily available in Mexico, for example.

[monarch]

The sight glass still has bubbles but it got dark outside so I will finish it in the morning.

←

If the sight glass has a continuous stream of foam that lasts for a couple of minutes or more then the system needs more R12. However, if the foam appears intermittently - comes and goes - with the on / off cycling of the compressor - then you likely have enough R12 already - especially if the center vent temperature is around 35-42 degrees F. It is important to avoid overcharging. An overcharged condition is indicated when the sight glass remains clear even when the compressor cycles on an off. A totally empty system takes three 12 ounce cans to charge. A partially charged system like yours typically takes between 1 and 2 cans (often closer to 1 can rather than 2)

If you find the system loses some of it's charge after several days, the leak might be coming from one of the 0-ring connection points that Kennyr mentioned. If the leak is big enough, sometimes you can detect it yourself by applying soapy water to the suspected leaky connection point. If the leak is small a shop equipped with an electronic leak detector should be able to find it quickly. However, it may be more economical to simply recharge a can of R12 every 3-6 months if the leak is minor - especially considering that fixing the leak requires the system to be totally discharged, the receiver-drier replaced, a few ounces of R12 compatible refrigeration oil added (to replace the oil that was trapped in the old receiover-drier) and then the system vacuumed for 30 minutes and then 3 new cans of R12 charged into the vacuum - quite an involved process.

[IS400]

Just found this post and had to laugh at the indignation in RFeldes response to someone finding a way to get R-12.

RFeldes, please be advised that a year of space shuttle launches releases more CFC than all the old style hairspray and r-12 freon that was released over the last century combined.

The r-12/134a switch over benifited someone substantially, but not the enviroment. Lobby the military industrial complex if you really want to effect positive climate change, otherwise leave we blue collars to our budget back yard fixes.

I personally go to stealership only when I need a good parts price laugh or some free snacks. :D